Using tube amp with electrostatic speakers.

Hi @atmasphere

To your own ears be true. :)

Best,

Erik

It’s not like the end of the world will happen if you go with tube gear, and different tube gear will yield different results.

If you randomly picked out a half dozen beefy solid state amps and equal number of beefy tube amps though, you might find 1 tube amp really does justice to the midrange and treble they are capable of, while almost all the solid state amps would.

However, if you are up for the challenge, you may very well find something you really like. :)

Personally, I would try to make my life easier with a nice CJ pre and a very solid SS amp, like a Sanders ESL for instance. That's just me, and my lack of desire to look very hard though. :)

Best,


Erik

One last thing, most ESL's are really not very neutral. Almost all can benefit significantly from digital EQ from the midrange on up.

Unlike dynamic speakers which can often be measurably neutral fairly inexpensively.

Again, don't get religious. I'm just saying, you are trading.

Best,


Erik

@don_c55 Well, yes, but how low and how high is what matters really. Getting significantly below 4 Ohms for instance.

The theory is solid, and if you see Stereophile's FR plots they do one into a simulated speaker load that's pretty good at showing the difference between tube and SS amps.

However! None of this really helps you determine what you may like. Listening is key.

Having said that, I've heard several electrostatic speakers, and when I had a chance to compare, tubes generally lost. I walked into one store with fairly young salespeople. They had a pair of ML's that had been sitting unsold for a while.  All tubes. I suggested they would sound better with SS. They changed it and the pair sold in a week.

@almarg That makes sense. High feedback --> Low output impedance, especially when that feedback is taken from the transformer outputs. :) Not sure what that amp is doing. Would be worth checking out.

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone get religious about it. Sound quality wise though, I would be perfectly happy with tube pre and SS amp. I would not chase a tube amp just for chasing a tube amp.

Best,


Erik

@tomcy6

I think your skepticism, in general, is well placed. I've seen speakers who have crossovers DELIBERATELY designed to be hard to drive.  That's not the case with electrostatics however.

Plug: Has anyone seen my LM-1 monitor kits? Easy to drive, completely neutral, and free designs. :)

There's just no way to avoid the impedance dropping at the top when you are making an ESL. The entire panel is basically a capacitor, as opposed to a dynamic speaker which is an inductor + resistor. That's one of the main reasons Roger Sanders got into offering amps specifically designed to be excellent with ESL speakers.

I have however read about some radical designs where ESL's are driven from tube amps WITHOUT a transformer. Those who hear them say they are breathtaking. The amps are carefully designed around the ESL's though.

Not all panel speakers are the same though. The old Apogee's did have a ridiculously low impedance but it was relatively flat.

Best,


Erik

@bdp24

That's fantastic! For several reasons.  First, proves I don't make stuff up, which most readers think I do.  Next I am actually in the Bay Area so I'd love to.

Best,


Erik

We are devolving into semantics.

The alternative to "tight" in my mind is "flabby" or "boomy" which is what usually happens when your speakers go low enough in frequency to exacerbate room modes. +-20 dB peaks and valleys are quite real and detrimental to musical enjoyment.

However, a system that lacks those peaks and valleys, and is flat to 16Hz in the room is a marvelous thing indeed. :)

Best,


Erik

@tomcy6 An "autoformer" describes the construction of the output transformer, while "output transformer" describes it's function.  In this case they describe the same part of the amplifier.

In an autoformer there is no secondary winding, and therefore, no galvanic isolation compared to a dual coil transformer.

Best,


Erik

Sanders have some of the smoothest frequency response and best imaging in the lot. HOWEVER, the sweet spot is 1mm wide. You'll love it, but as soon as you move around it's merely a good speaker. In the sweet spot it's spectacular.

I have no experience with McIntosh at all I'm afraid. :)

Best,

Erik

@bdp24 From my conversations with Roger, it’s based on frequency response. Most curvilinears at the time were not very flat without significant EQ.

Roger's stuff is flatter, with much better dynamic range. Earlier stuff did not have very well matched woofers though, that's improved.

Now if some one could convince him to make a 2 part ESL panel for better horizontal dispersion he might own the speaker world. :)

Best,

Erik