"All advice appreciated."
I think they are selling mass production fuses with gold(ish) plating on the ends & some fancy decals and packaging.
That said, if you can just buy one fairly cheap & see if you think it makes a difference, what the heck. |
Nonoise - A quick search for something like "fuse construction" will show you that ceramic mass production fuses are very common, use of silver in fuses is not particularly uncommon, the value of cryo treatment and the validity of testimonials are probably things that we weigh very differently.
It is a little off track, but I think that any audio product concept that appeals to audiophiles will eventually result in glowing testimonials of whatever product is developed. If you could develop convincing pseudo science suggesting that dried elephant dung absorbed emi, there would soon be much of it sold to audiophiles and history suggests that it would eventually be cryo treated and encased in silver mesh webbing by some of the more creative vendors.
None of the above is relevant to the question at hand though, I'm sticking with 'if you are inclined to try it and it is cheap then what the heck'.
Happy listening! |
"The more resolving a system , the more likely a difference will be heard . "
This is one of the things that drives me crazy about audiophiles. Good design means resolving on the output side (where resolving is a good thing) and filtered on the power supply side (where filtering is a good thing).
A poorly designed system will have high resolution in regard to ac line effects & compromised resolution in regard to desired output. A well designed system will be the opposite. This is true whether you are talking stereo's or tv's or any other electrical device whose purpose is to transmit a signal. It is basic electronics 101 stuff. Good equipment has improved immunity to incoming power issues or tweaks. |
Vhiner - I'm an audiophile and I did not intend any ridicule or remarks of a personal nature.
I actually can't find anything that could be construed as personal in my previous note. I do think the 'high resolution of the power supply' comments are out there and use of that type of logic to justify believing in tweaks or not believing in tweaks does drive me crazy. That is directed at the concept and not a particular person or persons however.
As regards "attacking the beliefs you hold", please attack away if so desired. I think that sharing differing views/experience/knowledge is an appropriate use of an audiophile website. |
"I've never found hypothetical scenarios very interesting or productive"
Filtering out noise on the input side of stereo equipment is very basic stuff. My guess is that some of your own equipment has ac line noise immunity/voltage tolerance specifications either in the manuals in or available from the manufacturer. It is what it is and there is no need to accept my word for this, a quick bit of research will allow anyone to confirm.
Personally, I think you need to look at the science on tweak threads like this as well as the listening test reports. If you only consider the latter then the only answer you'll ever come up with is "spend the money", placebo effects and the occasional shill tend to always push the testimonials toward the plus side. |
"never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? "
If we did I think they'd revoke our engineering degrees:).
Happy listening. |
"Vhiner... Just as silly."
Not to criticise, but that seems a little harsh.
Getting back Monty Python:
Magic fuses & wonder ears = silly party
Plummeting to death = very silly party
In my opinion:). |
"How can interconnects make a difference?"
Nonoise - For what is worth, the measurements and theory crowd (me included) would need to agree that interconnects can indeed make a measurable difference. In the non-audio world as well, you need to be aware of cable issues that can cause unacceptable attenuation when you want precise transmission of sensitive signals. |
"Isn't education sometimes a bitch for those who won't listen. "
Seems like there is a contradiction in there somewhere? :)
Eldartford - Interesting test approach, thanks. To be honest I'm lazy and completely undisciplined on testing ic's & speaker cable. I just keep the ones that seem to sound the best (and don't cost that much). One of the vendors, maybe the name was something like alpha core, used to sell cables that were built like giant capacitors, two flat thin conductors with a very thin slice of insulation in between, would have been interesting to run your test on them as I think they might have been the most extreme attenuators in the marketplace. Surprisingly to me they (speaker cables were tested not ic's) seemed to screech the upper frequencies instead of squash them. |
"How'd it be if someone went to your systems page and kept posting comments about how "bogus" your homemade room treatments were and demanding you prove they work? (I happen to think they're cool, inspiring and impressive, btw)."
He or she would probably like it & would tell you how to measure the effects if you wished. Effective room acoustic treatments leave a measurable footprint and many of us take various db measurements across our listening room when establishing acoustic treatment & subwoofer setup up & etc.
There are some pretty out there room acoustics things, telephone playback of magic signals for example, that do not leave a measurable footprint.
It could be argued I guess that one shouldn't refrain from spending money on the out there room acoustics things because they haven't tried them ?
"Why does it bother you that some of us perhaps have more sensitive hearing (by way of nature or training) in certain specific ways than others do? "
I think we all except the above to be a fact. I don't know that it bothers anyone but maybe it does. The thing is that the thresholds of human hearing are well established and are orders of magnitude below the thresholds of signal detection by other means. If you tell your neighbor that you can hear a mouse pass wind during a thunderstorm, he is going to give you a funny look. |
" I looked at 4 or 5 other manuals and they all spec'd the fuses."
They do describe operation of their installed circuit breaker used instead of an incoming power fuse on the KSA 250 though. The interesting thing in the manual to me was the warning not to fiddle with a different power supply cable, almost as if they were using power cable impedance as part of the protection scheme?
One could discuss whether fuses & breakers sound different, but I wouldn't recommend it:). |
"I'm sure there are even counterfeit fuses being made as well as power cords, interconnects, and speaker wire."
I think you are right.
Cardas has, or used to have, problems with others counterfeiting their cables & has/had info on there website on how to spot a fake. There also was a internet big to-doo over an established cable manufacturer re-naming an existing power cable and bumping the price somewhere around 500%. When you read cable manufacturer website info you see the occasional comment about "that other guy" basically just using cable made by the existing large scale production manufacturers and then making it more cosmetically appealing.
When I'm in doubt on a tweak, I try to see if I can find information about the brick and mortar production facilities that the vendor is using. If I can't verify such facilities exist, it makes me go hummm.
"How many people are going to take apart their $5000.00 interconnects to make sure they have really got what they paid for"
Folks are nerdy enough to take apart blown fuses and check them against specs for common production fuses though. If you eventually blow a few you could probably sell the corpses on this website. I and many others are too cheap to buy new pricey fuses just to tear them up for curiosities sake. |
Ghosthouse - Milpai
Fuses.
Not, wonders of nature, magic and mysticism, limits of the universe stuff.
Just lumps of metal that you pass current through & that have a limited number of properties that are easy to measure & quantify and understand.
No rocket surgery involved here. |
"Oh, and please honestly report your findings here, "
Have been thinking about all the things that get in the way of meaningful findings and would prevent 'honest' testing, if you don't believe in measurement or double blind tests.
1. Limitations in system performance & in hearing capabilities.
2. Limitations in acoustic memory.
3. Normal listening bias associated with testing something new (we listen more intensely when trying to detect a change than we do when comparing the change to a "known" system. Usually that means we 'hear' more when listening to the changed system).
4. Long term bias due to existing beliefs, ego, desire for improvement, etc.
5. Transient bias due to particular mood during listening session.
6. Transient perception differences due to exposure to noise, quality of sleep, minor sinus issue, etc. before listening session.
7. Difficulty of eliminating all equipment & environmental variables that could confuse the testing.
8. Most likely additional items that I haven't though of. |
Info on isoclean or the other manufacturer?
Was trying to find evidence that isoclean actually exists as a production facility, not just somebody with a stack of decals & etc. in their basement in Hong Kong.
Can't get past the opening page of their website, my computer gives me a malware warning when I click on any of the options. Can't find evidence of the company in the UL registry, but that might just mean that they are modifying another company's product rather than building from scratch.
Any info that is supplied with the fuses that would help trace down the production facility is of interest.
Info of interest includes;
1. Safety certification (UL and etc.) numbers.
2. Details of markings on fuses.
3. Factory address or contact info provided with the fuses.
4. Anything else that seems to indicate where the fuses are manufactured. |
Lacee wrote "Years ago Peter Aczel suggested".
Lacee, had not heard of Peter Aczel so I did a search for him. All I can say is thank you very much!!!!
His article"10 biggest lies in audio" at http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf is the best audio magazine or internet article that I have ever read.
I'd put it up as the best and most accurate audio article ever written.
For someone reading this thread that wants to really understand what is going on, please read the whole article, but read section 4 a couple times. |
Folks.
Think it is time for me to quit on this thread whatever else I would have said is already in the article:) (although if anybody posts info that would allow me to trace down fuse manufacturer info that is still of interest).
Happy listening! |
Nonoise - Thanks for the link. For what it is worth I'd write the Cliff notes version as 'our tests show that we have lower resistance and less vibration and we think this makes our fuses sound better'.
Metro4 / Vhiner - Please keep up the good work:). |
"I can't wait to hear your reaction to these products. "
How do they sound:). |
"ever tried the tweak which I believe involves placing a nickel, dime, and a quarter (I think this is the right combo) on top of your speakers?"
There's been a lot written about this one, it is usually now referred to as the crossover tweak if memory serves.
The theory is that if you can get people comfortable setting small amounts of money on a speaker then you can eventually get some of them addicted to throwing large amounts at a stereo.
ps. Somebody tell Vhiner I'm not serious |
Double extra super special attaboy amen Metro4 !!! |
"It's only been in the last few years, since the same Peter Aczel made his infamous audio myths, that a new breed of audiophile has emerged on the horizon."
Lacee - I think the thing is that we've always been around, the proof of that is probably the fact that it takes measurement and science geeks to build this stereo stuff in the first place, but the game has gotten so far out of hand that it causes more people to speak up.
For example:
$4000.00 cables and $80 fuses both coincidentally made wonderful by the magic of dark metallurgy and direction arrows and cryo treatment, acceptance that the only way to test something near the limits of perception is to throw out the instruments and scientifically proven methods and then let your imagination run free for two or three weeks, acceptance that wonderful and expensive things work in the world of audio but magically fail to work when applied to the rest of the world of electronics, etc..
That kind of stuff does inspire you to make sure that at least the new folks know that a lot of the stuff in audio is just plain nuts. If folks like you who have been around a good while want to hang with "listen with the ears and don't worry about the psychology" that is certainly your privilege, and it is fun, but if you do something that is scientifically nuts then it seems reasonable that people will point this out now and again. If I walked around with a pan on my head to block my thoughts from aliens, I'd expect this to inspire some conversation. |
Milpai - "snake oil in high end audio, it does not apply to all the products."
No argument here.
"So you guys totally assume things?"
When it comes to what we regard as snake oil one side assumes away science and the other side assumes away the belief that it makes sense to disregard science. The assumption count has to come up even at the end. There is a neat thread somewhere on this site that asks folks about their personal limits of acceptance for what is 'obvious' snake oil and what is worth consideration.
You are likely not reading this with a pan on your head because you assume you do not have to worry about it protecting you from being harmed by aliens, but you can't prove that aliens aren't reading your mind right now, you assume.
"I think it is a bit wrong to assume that humans know everything about metals/electricity/etc in physics."
Agreed, but if we didn't do the best we could with what we know then you'd probably have that pan on your head right now.
|
Sebrof - "To me, this is the crux of the debate. When someone's limit is above or below their own some people simply cannot deal with that."
Good point. |
Lacee - I'm in the camp that gives up after 3 pages of the same arguments.
Happy listening! |
Oh well.
Milpai - What exactly is your point, how does it relate to fuses or to anything I've written and no I'm not inclined to write about my system (but you can probably figure most of it out from other threads if it is important to you). |
Milpai - "My point was related to "generalization" that you make regarding the fuses or other upgrades. "
In my opinion, you can't generalize fuses with ic' or power cables or tubes or room acoustics upgrades or magic rocks or etc.. I think you have to look at each on it's own merit. If you feel I've lumped these things together then that is likely the result of poor writing on my end and is not the result of intent.
"But per you guys, audiophiles spend like crazy and go for expensive stuff. Does this at least make any sense to you that not all audiophiles have that mentality? "
Yes.
"On the same lines we DO hear the differences - which you claim do not exist. At least I tried a cable, which I did not like and simply returned. I would never make a statement about anything that I have not tried myself. That would be prejudice -isn't it?"
This concept was discussed on the first page of this thread and on this page as well, I don't have anything new to add.
Once more I would prefer to 'conveniently ' be done with this particular thread.
Happy listening. |
