Piedpiper,
One of our reasons for trying this experiment was to eliminate the residues left by the silver holographic belt. Beeswax would just replace one residue with another, and would certainly be a magnet for any dust attracted by the belt. It doesn't seem likely that any treatment like that would provide stable performance over the long term (nor, to be honest, would I want it on my platter).
Joe,
Good to see you. That's still the niftiest arm mount for a Rega/OL style arm I've ever seen. I remember we once discussed belt dressing (as used in car engines) and you warned me away. Piedpiper's idea might be less messy, but a clean interface is best.
Peter,
There are two sources on the Galibier website, one of them's on the Teres site too. Enjoy.
ALL,
Anyone who tries this, please report your results. We're always curious...
Doug
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Dan,
I only wear my HazMat suit for posting on public forums. Acid etching is benign by comparison!
Mothra,
Thanks for the report. If you get your cartridge set up just right (especially VTF and antiskate), you may also hear an increase in microdynamics, sound space info and very low level harmonic detail. |
Dave, That seems like a great idea! Good out of the box thinking. Do you feel a convex surface is really necessary, assuming that guide lips have been added at the outer edges to keep the tape from wandering? I've never tried, maybe Thom or Chris Brady would know from the early days of the Teres development group. It's worth a try, right? Worst case: you mangle a $.25 belt. Best case: you discover that the greater contact surface provides more traction (a thought that's occured to me, though we haven't tried it). Give it a try, you can always machine to convex later, right? Also, one thing I've noticed with my thread drive arrangement, is that frequent retensioning is necessary as the thread stretches. You can really hear liveliness & bass improve after minor retensioning. No doubt about it, fully agree. Does tape drive stretch constantly and require similar maintenance? Never. Motor positioning and levelling are critical and may need an occasional reset, but that's all. Mylar won't stretch under the loads we're applying. I've gone months without adjusting anything in the drive system, though last week the cat nudged the motor in the middle of the night. Grrr! The problem with your non-stretch fish line isn't that it's non-stretch. The problem is that it's too fine in cross section to have enough grip on the motor pulley. Introducing elasticity might ameliorate that, but you'd be substituting one vice for another. So I suppose the optimal drive belt material should have some inherent friction, a bit of elasticity, and enough physical integrity not to break down and stretch to the point that it looses its elasticity. Yes, no and yes, at least IME. And that's the whole point of this tweak. The texture on the back of the holographic mylar is exposed by removing the silver layer. There's your friction. No elasticity, so no damage to musical transients. No break down either, mylar is a very stable material. I've noticed quite of bit of improvement with very low-impedance batteries That's been our experience too. Paul chose the battery we're using for precisely that characteristic. Yours might be even better of course. :-) --- Comment to Galibier users: Several of you noted that, unlike our setup, you don't need to tension the belt to the motor pod's near-tipping point. Makes perfect sense. A Galibier motor pod is notably heavier than ours and also more squat in shape, so the feet are more spread out. It would take a lot more force to tip your motor than ours, probably too much and possibly risking the life of your motor bearings. |
Ducatrider,
I'll have to ask Paul if he remembers the concentration. He used up the last he had, so we'll be sourcing some too.
Steve,
Good tip re: the bearing. Ours is about due for a check.
We did try the Verus last summer. We were still using the silver holographic belt then, but even so the Verus was not an upgrade on our rig. It could not compete with our modified Ref II motor, modified controller and the faster/stronger battery we use vs. the Teres standard. It would be even less competitive against this new belt, which gives more raw 'oomph', the one area where the Verus did have a small advantage.
Our listening sensitivities and priorities may differ from yours, so keep our experience in context.
The Verus's speed controller is adjusted in fixed steps, and no setting yielded exactly 33 1/3. The deviation is too small for most people to notice or care about (and it varies depending on platter diameter), but we both have very good pitch, so we could tell it was running fast or slow. Chris has since halved the size of those steps, so it would be better now.
Also the rubber O-ring was a source of resonance rebound or elastic response to stylus drag events. Again, this was at a level many people don't care about. If we were rock or even regular classical listeners we might not notice. But much of our favorite music is pre-Romantic era on authentic instruments. These recordings are unforgiving (ie, revealing) of even the tiniest system problems. The instruments go from unique and rich timbres to fingernails-on-blackboard in a heartbeat if ANYTHING is wrong. They're a real acid test which we listen to almost daily, but which most people never listen to at all.
The Verus is well liked by most who try it, but its not for everyone. YMMV, as usual.
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Dan,
The etching cream was mostly gone long before Paul thought of using it on a TT belt. He used to do stained glass as a hobby.
That was years ago. You'd have to see our basement to appreciate what a miracle it is that he even found it. ;-)
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Update: the cream Paul used is "Armour Etch". Paul's old bottle was half dried out, but a little water brought it back to life. Despite dilution it was still plenty strong enough to strip the metal layer from the mylar.
The link Dan_Ed posted above has Armour Etch on the top line of products. It's nasty stuff, but half the price of the friendlier product Dan spotted on line 2. Be cheap or be green, your choice.
Steve,
Rambling is encouraged! Our system also used to sound soft in the bass, much as you described. No longer.
Our battery of choice is this: http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX20L-Battery.html.
It's liquid rather than gel, so it reacts faster and delivers higher peak currents. The Absorbed Glass Mat internals make it spill proof, for safety, and there's no reason to restrict yourself to low amp/hours. As long as it's 12V you're safe. After several experiments we settled on the 17.5ah model linked above.
Another idea of Paul's, naturally, and it easily out-powers the regular battery on transients and bass. I can rock the house down to the lower limits of our speakers (32 Hz). Way better than what Dan_Ed heard the last time he visited us.
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Stltrains,
Glad to hear you're all back together after the evacuation for the hurricane, and glad you're enjoying this upgrade like the others who've tried it.
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Dan,
We tried our big car recharger (similar to what Thom supplied you?). It sounded rougher than the Big Crank. I remember Thom theorizing that a Teres motor controller would respond more than a Galibier would to battery differences, due to its higher impedance. Paul says the Big Crank has very low internal impedance, so I guess that makes sense - as much as anything electrical makes sense! <;~)
Ducatrider,
I don't know any sources for 1/4" mylar. You could try what Chris Brady did when he first wanted to experiment with 2 mil vs. 1 mil mylar. He couldn't find 2 mil in 1/2" rolls, so he bought a large sheet and cut 1/2" strips with a straightedge.
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Frank,
I use 1" wide splicing tape. I do not use a splicing block. I get better results by matching and cutting on a small sheet of glass sitting on a clean, flat surface. YMMV of course.
Tools include a steel straightedge, an Xacto knife (a #11 blade works well) and a bunch of little post-it notes to hold the belt in position.
After cutting the overlapped ends at a 30-40 angle, I apply the 1" splicing tape ACROSS the join at the SAME angle, burnish it down with a thumbnail, then trim the excess off each side.
Easier to do than to write. Hope this helps.
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Hi Livemusic,
Thanks for sharing your results, and glad you were able to hear the profound (indeed) differences that result from optimizing the motor-platter coupling. It's obvious when you think about it, but hearing is believing.
Of course the best implementation for any particular rig can be anything but obvious. It took us 5 years of trial and error with 10-15 belts to reach this point with this table. Some other table might need something different, though the principles are the same: no elasticity and minimal slippage.
For battery power you'll probably want the battery option from Teres. It should still be available, ask Chris. This provides the proper interface to the motor controller (internal to your Sig II) as well as a trickle charger. You could probably DIY if you had electrical skills, but I don't and apparently neither do you! Maybe someone who understands electricity will chime in with an easy DIY.
One tip: although the Teres charger disconnects itself when the motor's running, we still hear a small degradation in sound quality. A few others (not many) have reported the same. We have our charger plugged into an outlet strip with a power switch, which we turn OFF while we're listening.
For the best battery we've found (out of 5 or 6 tried), see the link I posted above. |
Thanks for the report Jfd01. :-)
Good job hearing through the trick of flabby mid-bass that gives an impression of body but masks the texture and overtones of real bass instruments. The greater extension in HF's is, I think, due to more stable platter speed and lack of slippage: the tiny waveforms above 15K are easily lost if everything isn't "perfect". Pitch definition is of course dependent on platter speed, and the more pitch-sensitive your ears the more critical this aspect of TT perfomance becomes.
When you said you planned to etch an existing belt (rather than unspliced mylar) I worried about the stability of the glue. No problems there, apparently?
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Frank sm,
Are you using video splicing tape? The silver tabs inevitably spread as you described. So do general purpose tapes, and they can leave glue residue on your platter too.
Splicing tape won't spread. I've had two year old splices that were as tight as new.
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Thanks for finding that link, Jfd01. I've got it at home, but I'm not at home!
Frank_sm,
Removing that silver backing you're not keen on is the whole point of this thread. When you do, only clear mylar is left.
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Dgarretson,
Palasr's response, based on more experience than mine, confirms my speculation. Yes, the mylar (especially tweaked as per this thread) will provide far more grip than any thread.
***
Stltrains,
I won't say I'm surprised at your Atmos/UNIverse decision. I enjoyed the Atmos for rock, but for the music we listen to daily the UNIverse's superior resolution, speed and lack of overhang make most other cartridges nearly intolerable - even one as good as the Atmos.
Our system has improved in dynamics and bass response since we reviewed the Atmos. This makes the rock experience with the UNIverse very powerful. If we were reviewing today I'm not sure I'd need the Atmos's extra oomph, even for rock.
***
Jazdoc,
Glad to know another person has tried this tweak and is hearing the improvements.
Paul and I are both coming to RMAF (our first). I'm thinking of wearing a Hawaiian style grass skirt made of silver/holographic mylar, just so people can avoid me. What do you think?
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Dgarretson,
Further thoughts on your implementation of a VPI idler wheel as a pulley for a 1/2" wide belt...
Clearly this will necessitate running your motor at vastly reduced RPM's. Assuming your controller has the range to allow this, you still run the risk of exaggerating the audible effects of your motor's cogging behavior. As the ratio between motor RPM and platter RPM approaches 1:1, motor cogging is directly translated to platter cogging.
By all means go ahead and try. But if you aren't happy with the results the fault may lie with the motor and the large pulley, not the belt. A way to test that would be to machine a small diameter pulley and use it with the same 1/2" belt. The faster the motor runs (relative to the platter) the less audible motor cogging will be.
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Mike,
We had no trouble getting all the silver material off.
Frank,
My motor has three height adjustable spikes, so it's easy to adjust spindle angle like your base does (though I do wish my threads were a tighter fit). It would be difficult to use these belts without some such adjustment.
Thanks for the temperature tip, though in my case the belt was visibly worn and there's no question it needed replacement. I've been using mylar belts for 5 years and retensioning efforts were no longer working. Replacing it did.
With the acid etched mylar belt discussed on this thread, if there's little visible wear and if the holographic/rainbow effect is still visible, it probably doesn't need replacement yet, as you said. |
Frank,
I didn't see it there either. I haven't seen clear or frosted A-V splicing tape in quite a while. My roll's 3-4 years old. |
Absolutely true. I dust the working side of ours before every side by holding my CF brush against it. I also dust the platter rim before each listening session. Simple but essential.
The static potential buildup between belt and platter is a dust magnet and I once pondered grounding the belt in some way. Paul said, "Don't bother, the static's required to make the system work. The stronger the static buildup the better it's functioning.".
Naturally I didn't believe this harebrained nonsense, so I tried zapping the belt with a Zerostat while it was running. It instantly lost all grip with the platter. He laughed. I shrugged. After 26 years I'm used to making a fool of myself trying to test him on a science question.
At least I proved the Zerostat works. :-)
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Interesting indeed. At RMAF, TW's table was the only belt drive not using tape that didn't betray the obvious flaws of an elastic/rubbery belt. We walked out of a dozen other rooms within minutes, disappointed by softened transients and dulled microdynamics.
The Raven didn't do that, at least not that we could hear in that system, so TW's belt material must be unusually effective. Sonofjim's estimate seems right, but only a direct, in-system comparison will tell. Please do keep us posted.
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Socoaste,
Re-read point #5 in my original post.
You've got a multi-thousand dollar vinyl rig and won't spend $5 for a roll of tape? Sorry, that's too cheap even for me.
FWIW, my experiences with the shipping tape Zargon uses were less successful. Every belt I made using such tape (both 3M brand and others) resulted in a splice that eventually spread, leaving glue residue on platter and motor spindle. Different climates maybe?
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Cool idea for the motor pulley. That would look nice.
If you can, I've always been curious about how a pulley with flat sides (rather than convex/bowed) would work. I've no objection to the top and bottom lips, to keep the belt sliding off, but a pulley with a flat cross-section in the working area would provide more surface area, so more grip and less slippage - or so it seems to me. It wouldn't provide the self-centering function of the bow, so the belt splice and the levelling of all components would have to be pretty accurate.
If you can make one and it works, I'll gladly trade you some made up belts or a length of splicing tape for one. |
Socoaste,
Apologies for a spot of fun. No assault on the Pacific was intended or implied, and none is countenanced.
Apologies also for misquoting the tape price. We owe you the differential of $20.97, less the value of a single-user license for the amortized value of R&D costs for this and other tweaks we've made freely available rather than selling. (Your use thereof constitutes your consent to our licensing agreement, which remains unpublished but runs pretty much entirely in our favor.)
I've asked Accounting to complete a net value assessment of the transaction, after which I'll order a check cut or we'll invoice you, as the case may require.
Please respond in the affirmative confirming your understanding and mutual agreement, and forward your SSN/TIN so we can 1099 you.
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Dan,
I'm unfamiliar with a Galibier-like pulley, but if yours is straight while mine isn't, I think I understand.
Frank,
Glad to hear a second vote that non-convex works. Fully agree that very careful levelling is required. If one foot is off by even a few thousandths... there goes the tape. No problem normally, as you said.
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The embossed pattern itself is too fine to see. The only visible evidence is a blurry prismatic/rainbow effect when the light catches it at just the right angle.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.
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Thanks, Dan. Wonder if Thom would drill me one to fit? (Hint!)
I considered auto belt dressing 4-5 years ago, and was advised not to for the reason Dan just mentioned. I don't want residue building up on my table either, I have enough trouble controlling cat hairs without glueing them to the platter.
I do understand why silk thread users are seeking improvement, since it's inferior to any mylar tape, but the AA fellow would save time if he did a little research before repeating failed experiments. Multiple Teres/Galibier owners tried and rejected silk thread back in 2002-2003. Even 1 mil mylar works better, and Teres/Galibier/Redpoint tables advanced beyond that years ago. The belt we're discussing here is at least four generations improved over silk thread/fishing line in my experience.
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Bob,
Forgot you had that style of spindle, sorry. Maybe Socoaste can make you a new one from cocobolo. :-)
The platter rim must be straight vertical and flat at belt height. The TT motor must be sufficiently quiet and non-cogging so that the sonic benefits of more linear coupling TO the motor outweigh the higher transmission of noise and cogging FROM the motor. Given all those conditions, it just needs someone with access to a lathe and a drill press to make a replacement spindle.
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Technically, what you're looking for isn't a "spindle", it's a "capstan".
I used the proper term in my OP, but then we got lazy, hazy, crazy.... |
Jp11801,
Glad another listener is enjoying the improvement from this little tweak.
***
Following up on the capstan topic, Palasr was kind enough to mail me four capstans he's used on his Gavia. This was so I could try one with straight vertical sides, rather than the mildly convex shape supplied by Teres.
Three of the four were too large in diameter for the range of my motor controller. The stock Galibier capstan worked however, so we A/B'd with our Teres capstan.
On our table, the Teres capstan was the winner, slightly less smearing and better micro-dynamics.
My hypothesis is that the brass Galibier capstan's smooth finish may allow more slippage than the slightly (intentionally) coarse finish of the Teres capstan, which is made of some non-metallic material that I can't identify.
Kudos to Chris for supplying a great performing material, and a suggestion to Thom and Galibier owners that a less polished capstan might further improve performance.
Best of all (I think) would be a straight-sided capstan with the set screw mounting used by Galibier, but made of the material used by Teres. Any takers?
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Hi Mike. Acetone will dissolve cyanoacrylate adhesives (aka 'Super Glue'). Work with the motor upside-down to keep residue from flowing down the shaft into the bearings. I use Lok-tite. Super Glue seems like overkill to me.
I haven't found anyone to make a replacement capstan but perhaps that's because I haven't looked. ;) I presume any machine shop could do it. AFAIK all they'd need would be a lathe, a drill press and a length of bar stock cut from the material of your choice. A local tech school or high school shop might enjoy a little project.
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George a,
Thanks for that link. Splicing the belt cleanly and with the two ends precisely aligned is certainly the most difficult aspect of this. Mylar tape has no forgiveness so close doesn't count, the splice has to be perfect. I've ruined more than one...
I looked into companies like that one but none had the right material (holographically textured mylar tape but WITHOUT the silver reflective layer). So we end up buying the finished tape and stripping off the silver layer before splicing. What we do for love... :)
***
Thanks, Mike. Paul's not only a science/engineering wiz, he's a mean chef too. Am I livin' lucky or what? :)
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Hi Pani,
R2R tape provides a less elastic, less slippage-prone coupling than silk thread. The drive belt described in this thread simply goes further in that same direction... much further. Therefore, whatever you heard from R2R tape you'd hear even more of with the modded holo belt... much more.
Your experiment provided data. Let's think about what you learned and its implications. Improving your motor-platter linkage raised the noise floor. Ask yourself, where did this additional noise come from? The overwhelming likelihood is that it comes from the motor and that the improved coupling provided by the R2R tape transferred more of it into the platter (which is a good drive belt's job).
All motors are noise sources and I'm afraid yours is suspect. I've read reports over the years of PV owners who improved their motors and heard a major improvement. The unfortunate but inescapable conclusion is that PV uses silk thread because a slippy (or elastic) coupling helps isolate the platter from a noisy motor.
Your experiment certainly seems to confirm this. IMO it's likely that upgrading your motor will be necessary before you can enjoy the sonic benefits of a tighter motor-platter coupling without experiencing additional noise.
* As noted in my OP, sources for the holo tape can be found on the Teres and Galibier websites. I don't know of any others.
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Tim,
Have you also sat next to baroque oboists? My distinction was meant only as a comparison between modern and baroque instruments. If you've only sat next to one type or the other then any observations would be in a vacuum and would neither affirm nor contradict the comparison.
For clarity, I didn't intend to suggest that a modern oboe lacks harmonics. Sorry if I was unclear. To my ears, more of its energy focuses on the fundamental COMPARED to a baroque oboe, which has a different balance between fundamental and overtones - one that favors the latter. Neither is better or worse, they were designed for different situations and respond accordingly.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the ability of different genres to reveal system characteristics, at least at the margins. I agree that a system which can reproduce very difficult acoustic music really well will do the same for (say) hip-hop, provided one is willing to tolerate any flaws and artifacts in the recording being revealed for what they are. The converse is not true. I've heard hundreds of systems that hip and hop really well but sound ghastly when asked to reproduce challenging acoustic instruments.
When the source music has been sent through dozens of electronic steps which distort the signal *by design*, a little playback distortion may go unnoticed. OTOH, when the source music has been sent through the minimally necessary electronic steps and each of those was chosen to distort the signal *as little as possible*, playback distortions are more likely to be audible... at least to my hip- and hop-less ears.
I have some LPs featuring solo counter-tenor and alto recorder performing in the hardest stone space imaginable. These records bring 99% of all systems to their knees. People literally leave the room holding their ears because it can sound like fingernails-on-slate. It's not the records' fault however, it's the inability of multiple components throughout the playback chain to cope with densely packed, high amplitude harmonics. I've heard these LPs produced "almost" right just once or twice. No recording of mixed, manipulated and amplified music is anywhere near so demanding.
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Dave4u and Andirocks,
Just noticed your posts. Glad this tweak works well for you, as it does for most everyone who's tried it. Enjoy!
... and a belated thanks to Richard (Palasr) for posting that new source for holographic mylar tape.
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Hi Don,
Thanks for reviving this thread from the depths of time... well, 2011. You must have tweaked your Scout quite a bit to use a belt like this... impressive.
Like you, we've always used natural instrument recordings to test any system or component. The pre-19th C. instruments one typically gets on labels like Telefunken are the sternest tests of all. Classical and Baroque instruments favored complex harmonic overtones more than their modern counterparts, which emphasize the fundamental in order to fill large, modern concert halls. The timbre of a Baroque oboe is more complex than its modern counterpart and that complexity is difficult to reproduce accurately.
Complex harmonics challenge every aspect of a system but none more so than a TT, which can so easily generate distortions in the time domain. Even if a TT maintains perfect average speed, variations lasting mere thousandths of a second (which fall below the resolution of strobe discs, laser pointers and such) will distort complex harmonics enough to drive sensitive listeners out of the room.
Original instrument recordings sound ghastly in many systems. Some listeners just blame the recording and move on, happily unaware of just how weak their systems actually are. Great job persevering, glad you found a way to enjoy Mr. Haydn.
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Tom,
I've read about Thom's upgrades (I'm actually on his mailing list, lol). I know he worked hard to find a better belt material. It sounds like he succeeded, which is great!
Glad to see (at least) one of the three original Teres experiment spinoffs is still improving the product and making a go of it.
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Tim,
I just noticed the question at the end of your last post. The LP I described above (which Paul calls my "la-dee-dah record") is this one:
‘Les Plaisirs de la Renaissance’ (Harmonia Mundi, HMU 963)
There are many such recordings on the (French) Harmonia Mundi label. Arthur Salvatore's LP lists include many such in the Early Music catagory. We get ours from ebay, including some from European ebay sites/sellers. Prices are usually low (not a big market) and vinyl condition is usually perfect or nearly so.
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Dave4u,
You don't want adhesive on either side of a TT belt.
Palasr,
Thanks for posting that link. I have an ample supply of mylar and splicing tape so have yet to try one of Thom's made-up Kapton belts. Other than convenience, can you expand on how it is better? |
Dan,
Dust buildup seems to vary with the weather. In the winter when our New England air is so dry, static builds up more and more brushing is needed. Less so in summer.
I did test static reduction in a simple and somewhat extreme way. Paul warned me it wouldn't help, but you know I never listen to him if I can make a fool of myself independently. With the platter spinning I zapped the belt with the Zerostat. INSTANT and TOTAL loss of grip between belt and platter. I could hear the belt whizzing past the slowing platter, it couldn't maintain its grip.
Dr. Chuckles wryly explained that the electrostic potential between belt molecules and platter molecules is what makes the whole system work. I knew that...
Dave,
I'm not saying mylar has no elasticity, just that the loads applied in this particular application are not high enough to reach its elastic threshhold. The "proof" is what I said above. Except for the occasional marauding cat, the motor position can be ignored for months with no change in performance or belt tension. In practical terms, it's pretty elastic-free.
BTW, the length of mylar under actual tension is not the full 50" length of the belt. Only the segment between the motor pulley and the contact area of the platter on the drive side is being tensioned.
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Dan,
We did consider filling the bathtub with sulfuric acid, dumping a few dozen rolls in and going into business selling TT belts for $500 apiece...
Larry,
If that Certus table ever needs a new belt, it's on me! ;-)
<;~)
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I've read some good reports about various kinds of thread, string, fishing line, dental floss, etc. I also remember one VPI owner who modified his table to accommodate a wider belt, used 1/4" wide mylar and reported good results.
The difficulty in implementing this kind of belt on a VPI (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the motor capstan and/or platter rim are grooved for a fairly narrow belt. This limits your material choices to whatever will fit, unless you modify your table.
If your platter rim is flat, getting a local machine shop to make you a taller motor capstan might be viable. For a 1/2" belt you need a capstan working surface height of about 9/16" to 19/32", very slightly convex and with lips at top and bottom to stop the belt riding off. The O.D.at the center would be the same as your existing capstan, obviously. Material choice probably isn't super-critical, but the surface should not be highly polished.
The key characteristics in a good belt material are:
1. Lack of elasticity. The more resistant the material is to stretching and rebound the better. Rubber is terrible (sorry). Mylar is dimensionally very stable. At the speeds and loads experienced by a TT belt it wouldn't be far wrong to call it "perfectly" stable, depending on the thickness.
2. Lack of "slipperiness", ie, sufficient friction to prevent slippage when a big transient tries to slow the platter. This is tricky to get right. The biggest risk of slippage is at the very short belt/capstan interface. The belt/platter interface is long enough to make slippage less likely there. The optimum material is very much table dependent. On a Teres motor capstan materials like string, thread, etc. result in quite audible slippage, though they're still better than anything elastic. Mylar will also slip if it's too thick and/or too smooth to make the curve around the capstan, and that's a function of your capstan diameter, material and surface.
Not much of an answer, sorry. But I encourage you to experiment. It can't hurt and you'll certainly learn something from everything you try, as we have.
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Great description of the stripping process by Dan_Ed above and Jfd01 is correct, the etching cream has no effect on the other side. Mylar is impervious to most acids.
Stltrains,
The black mylar streamer from McCormick's is just 1.0 mil thick. That's what Teres supplied with our first table five years ago. It's notably inferior to several materials we've used since, and it won't respond to this tweak.
Chris Brady replaced that black 1 mil material with clear 2 mil mylar belts several years ago. That was a notable upgrade and I remember sending him a big thank you.
Then we tried the silver holographic mylar streamer (also sold by McCormick's), partly because Dan_Ed and others compared Galibier & Teres tables found the Galibier more dynamic. There was little logical reason for that, other than motor-platter linkage, and we did indeed prove that the silver holographic mylar vs. Chris's clear mylar was the difference. We used the silver/holo for about 2 years, with frequent replacements due to the silver wearing off as Dan_Ed described.
Then Paul had the epiphany described at the top of this thread and all is good, very good.
Summary: the black mylar from McCormicks is at least three steps below the belt we're talking about on this thread. If you want a HUGE improvement without all the baby steps, buy a roll of the silver holographic streamer from McCormicks (make sure you don't order the adhesive backed by mistake). Strip the silver off as described above and be prepared for a shock. :-)
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UPDATE: our first AEB just reached the end of its useful life after 10-11 months of regular use.
The decline from fully dynamic to "what the heck's wrong" was quick and easy to diagnose. Over the last few days it didn't want to stay up on the capstan but kept riding down to the bottom flange. Re-levelling the motor helped some, but the physical belt wear was visible and there was little holographic sheen left. When I spun up a record it was obvious within moments that we had speed stability issues.
The AEB went from good performance to yuck in 4 days or less, which I guess is better than a slow decline that one might not notice. I spliced up a new one and all's right again.
Individual lifetimes will vary I'm sure, with the texture of the motor capstan being a factor. Ours is slightly rough, which may shorten belt life. As mentioned above, "helping" the platter to start and (for Teres owners) turning off the motor switch before stopping the platter should reduce belt/capstan slippage and lengthen belt life.
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Hi Am dial, long time no hear. Welcome back!
My long term suggestion is none of the above.
www.usrecordingmedia.com also has 1" TME professional/archival splicing tape. That's what I use, except mine's clear (frosted), not blue.
1) Cut the overlapped mylar ends on a 30-40 degree angle, not vertically, to avoid thumps when going round the motor capstan.
2) Lay the 1" tape across the splice at the same angle and burnish with a thumbnail.
3) Trim the excess off top and bottom.
Scotch tape is okay for emergency use but the splice will stretch, the adhesive will ooze and get all over your platter. Archival/VCR splicing tape won't do that. |
Thom, I also experimented with thicker mylar belts (probably described it somewhere above). On my Teres, a .003" belt slipped badly. As thinner mylar belts did not do this, I attributed the slipping to the thick belt being too rigid to maintain contact as it attempted to make the tight turn around the capstan. For torque transfer, the optimal setup is probably subject to the so-called Capstan equation. Note that this equation assumes that the belt is inelastic and not overly rigid. Both of these considerations have been been (and are still being) discussed and developed by you and other participants on this thread. Of course this does not address noise transfer. As you noted, the requirements of maximizing torque transfer while minimizing noise transfer are largely contradictory. The optimal solution will always vary with the characteristics of the motor and turntable. BTW, neither the Galibier motor nor any other TT motor uses a "pulley". By design, pulleys minimize torque transfer (ideally to zero). Attaching a pulley to a TT motor would result in a platter rotational speed fairly close to zero. Turntables use "powered capstans". Doug |
