Tweaks - An Honest Discussion
30 years ago, to find really effective vibration control, it would indeed have to be beginners luck. Black Diamond Racing pretty much had the market to themselves. Now though there are plenty to choose from, probably even some that are better. Taking time to read and compare the reviews skews the odds heavily in your favor. |
f1status1- Next on the list is vibration control. I’m on a suspended wood floor and it vibrates. I can feel my components vibrate and I’d like to address this area next. Would you suggest plinths under the speakers? Feet or cone brand to try? So what is the status of F1, f1? What a shame we have a potential GOAT in Hamilton and thanks to Wuhan can't watch him race. Vibration control is huge. Its the first big tweak I discovered and learned to understand. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 You're smart to call it vibration control. Because there is a whole range of vibrations, across frequencies, amplitudes, and sources. Controlling large amplitude low to moderate frequency floor vibrations, micro-level high frequency solid state and tube vibrations, and turntable vibrations which is a whole category to itself, these all require similar yet different approaches. You can see them all in my system. One very important point to keep in mind when studying vibration control is even things like shape and size make a difference. Like for example Frank noted granite gave him improved mids and highs but nonexistent bass. I'd be willing to bet it wasn't as large a slabs as I use. Because the bass in my system is awesome, and improved when these were added. But the one under the turntable is sitting on a 4" thick slab of concrete with over an inch of sand in between and all as part of a rack that weighs in somewhere north of 700 lbs. The one under the Melody amp is sitting on BDR Cones, no sand bed. Both these granite slabs have a nasty ring that needs to be controlled. It could be controlled somewhat with shape. But it gets expensive. Mahgister has the right approach: experiment, listen, tweak, listen, repeat. This is the dirty secret of manufacturers. DIY, like mahgister, which is also what I did. BDR Cones have been around a long time. Probably others have come along in the 30 years since BDR came out, probably even some that are as good or maybe even better. I haven't seen much evidence of that but you never know. The best indication I think, besides my recommendation, is how infrequently they come up for sale- and how fast and how much they sell for when they do. Pretty amazing for a tweak where the inventor died more than a dozen years ago and nowhere but Music Direct carrying it. Other than that about the only downside is its every mention triggers a post from Capt Irrelevant. Then again at 21,215 and counting you could probably say that about everything. |
Speaker placement is totally a tweak. Its literally the definition of tweak! Heck I just looked it up, so as to avoid even the slim risk of appearing ignorant, and Miriam Webster first definition of tweak "to make usually small adjustments in or to, especially fine tune." We all get to have our own opinions but we don't get to have our own facts. Adjusting speaker placement is tweaking. That's just a fact. Now it may well be that in your experience you were always able to find a component for only $60 more that sounded exactly as good as one that cost $60 less but with Cones under it. That seems about as likely as finding a definition of tweak that rules out adjustments. But let's say you did. In your experience and opinion you have found tweaks are exactly as good as .... they cost. Then why would you "embrace" tweaks? I mean, if in your experience and opinion tweaks are only worth exactly what they cost and no more, why would you add the complexity? Why wouldn't you just go shopping for the next component every single time you want something better? Also curious to know, in your experience, all the tweaks you tried, they were always worth exactly what you paid? Not a one of them was worse than a component upgrade? Not a one of them was better? Really? I mean, not even all components are equally good value. Yet you are saying tweaks always are. Worth exactly what they cost. You have to admit it does seem rather unlikely. |
"Apparently one of the great things about being a tweak guru is being able to extract thousands of dollars of better performance from a piece of gear that the designer/manufacturer should have included for mere pennies of incremental cost. That makes the tweak guru orders of magnitude smarter and of more value to the audio community than a gear designer/manufacturer." Its not like that at all. The flaw in the logic is so glaring I need to stop and apply SPF 60. And sunglasses. There now. That's better. Manufacturers design to a price point. Tweakers don't. Got it? No? Not surprised. Let me explain. When a tweaker puts a set of $60 Cones under a $500 component, or swaps out a $20 cap, or $10 diode, or whatever, that's it as far as the tweaker is concerned. For a manufacturer to do that, wholesale cost $60 becomes $600 at retail, now its an $1100 component. There's just no way. If you don't understand that then you don't understand economics- not even the niche segment of economics that makes actual sense. Now I if I wanted to be snarky I would say something like, "Apparently one of the greatest things about ignorance is you can make fun of just about anything, for any reason, or none at all! You don't need to know anything when you're ignorant. In fact its an advantage! It makes the ignorant orders of magnitude smarter than the informed!" Yeah. Nailed it. Again. |
Its been a while, but I still recall how it was back when I was as smug in my ignorance as tuberist and tvad. One of the first tweaks I tried that began to change my mind was a phone book under the CDP. Which is a pretty poor tweak and barely audible. But the thing of it is, it shouldn't be audible at all! Not even a little! But it is. So I tried a whole bunch more things. But here's the thing. Its like, when you are learning to drive a car one of the interesting things you learn is there is an optimal tire pressure. Way too high and the car responds super fast but skitters and slides with little traction. Way too low and the car responds slow but sticks with lots of traction. In between is a very tiny little zone of only one or two psi where both responsiveness and traction are optimized. You tell this to the average person they look at you like, well like you guys who can't hear are looking at me right now. Only maybe not as bad since they just can't drive while you can't hear or drive. But whatever. Point is these things do indeed matter, and work, and after a while you don't even need anyone to tell you, you actually know just by looking at the car if its a bit over or under inflated, and by driving it know if it needs a little more or less air. So back to tweaks. Some of them work great. Some are crap. My all time overpriced tweak is the Shakti Stone. But that's only because in spite of the smugly ignorant superiority complex guys opinion I have indeed found the tweak I wouldn't try. Its all of them. I only try them after multiple proven good listeners have established enough consistently good results to make me feel reasonably confident in doing so. Why? How do you guys do it? |
@millercarbon are these the BDR cones you used? Yes and that is a deal! The three Cones alone will set you back $60 at Music Direct. The square Things are early versions of what became Round Things, both the same material but round is slightly better. Anyway doesn’t matter neither one is made any more since DJ died and so get whatever you can. Basically the square Things are made of an extremely stiff, dense and highly damped carbon fiber/resin composite. They’re threaded 1/4-20 and this set has studs so the Cones screw into the Things. Then what you do is put three Things under the component with the Cones pointing down, and three Things under the Cones. Same as I have with my turntable, amp and phono stage. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Very effective. Only mine are Round. But if you look close you will see some square just like these. On the very bottom under my amp. BDR is so good it doesn’t come up often. Also those look to be thick. There were two versions, one a little thicker than the other. Thicker is a little better, especially under heavier components. Jump on it. |
My experience is laid down in writing for everyone to see right here on my systems page: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Specifically: "everything matters. Everything either contributes or detracts, and no one single component is any more or less important than any other." This is based on well over 30 years experience. Which in the beginning I would have agreed the thing to do is upgrade components. The main thing that has changed is the meaning of components. In the beginning not having much experience it was easy to think components are, uh, components. Now I know components are wire, shelves, walls, outlets, insulation, literally every single thing. My great awakening to this fact goes back to BDR Cones in the 1990’s. For months I would carry a set around trying them under all kinds of components in all kinds of systems. In one very typical experience I went to try out a used pre-amp at a guys house. Decided not to buy but enjoyed listening to his Dunlavy’s. Asked if he would mind me trying the Cones under his CD. He wasn’t interested but said no problem and went off in the kitchen. Few minutes later from in the kitchen I hear him yell is that the Cones man his voice stands out so much clearer! Got dozens of these. Typically its the husband straining and laboring to hear something while the wife who inevitably seems not to care says yeah honey get the MkIV they’re clearer. Now here’s the thing. The Cones cost the same $60 regardless of what you put them under. That’s anywhere from several hundred to several thousand dollars worth of equivalent improvement. For $60. Clearly one can get better sound with a better CD player. Amp. Speakers. Whatever. Equally clearly it is by far more cost effective to do it with Cones than upgrades. Way more. So that’s Cones. Which until PPT came along was the all time cost-effective champ. Very nearly as good as those are things like HFT, ECT, PHT, Orange Fuses, fo.Q tape, cable elevators, etc. One of the more astounding component upgrades of my life was going from the ARC PH3SE to the Herron VTPH2A phono stage. This was so huge my wife heard the difference from the other room and through the closed door. Then when she came in she stood there bug-eyed trying to comprehend how that little box made music sound so much better. That little box cost close to four grand. The ARC sold so net cost call it three grand. Okay. So months later I open the speakers, apply TC and fo-Q tape inside, and we are both just about equally blown away. Net cost, less than one grand. Way less. So my experience is that by far the biggest sound quality improvements per dollar are to be had by these sorts of upgrades rather than buying a whole new component. Its the classic weakest link scenario. I simply see more links than most. They will get there. Some of them, anyway. Oh, another related experience. Anyone who has ever modded anything knows just how cost effective it is to upgrade a cap or diode. Manufacturers certainly know this. Its why they use better quality parts in their special editions or higher level components. Anyone who has ever upgraded from patch cords and rubber power cords knows it was worth the upgrade. There really is nothing the least bit controversial in any of this. Its simply learning to see - and hear - all the links in the chain. Not just the biggest most obvious ones. |
