The latest issue of Absolute Sound has a list of 15 or so tweaks that they say are worth doing. I would like to get some feedback from others about 3 of them.
1. Grounding Caps for unused preamp inputs. 2. Equipment anti-vibration devices such as Vibropods. 3. Aligning interconnects and power cords so that they cross at right angles to each other. (This sounds like a very difficult thing to arrange).
If you aren't kidding, you have to be very new to this, so read, read, read and then think, think, think until it makes sense to you.
You're in a room playing music. Sound waves flow out of the speakers and are bouncing all around your room hitting everything in sight, including your components.
Signals or AC pass through wires, if the grounding or shielding allows leakage, what's next to the leaking wires.
This isn't rocket science, but it can appear to be!
Certainly Vibropods are a very cheap tweak, and crossing power ICs at right angles is easy and cheap too. I have not heard of putting grounding caps in unused pre-ins. Does anyone know where to get grounding caps or how much they cost?
All three of these tweaks are fairly standard, and well known actually.
Remember though that tweaks are just that, "tweaks", which are minor little adjustments to one's system, that may, or may not, affect the sound of the system. Try'em out and if they work, great. If not, no big deal, as most of these tweaks are relatively cheap to try out anyway.
#1 I tried shorting pins and found no appreciable change. Make sure if you try this, not to insert said pin into an output jack. #2 Vibrapods made some difference but not huge and not always an improvement. Audio points and Still points are the real deal. #3 I would rather listen to Elton John (I dislike his music) than spend the time attempting to have cords intersect at right angles.
Suggestion for #4 Try some GIK panels in your room. They are reasonably priced.
I have found that those tweaks work if your system is sufficiently resolving enough to hear them. Make your own grounding plugs as sidssp sugests. V-Pads (rubber-cork-rubber pads and available at HVAC suppliers for about $2.50)are MUCH better than Vibrapods and lots cheaper but Still Points and Mapleshade brass footers are even better.
I find it near impossible to get cords at 90 degrees to one another. For well thought out system suggestions get Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound" Worth every penny. http://www.getbettersound.com/
I have found that tweaks can make a very positive difference. Some are more effective than others and it takes some patience and 'trial and error' to get a system sounding it's best. I look at tweaks as if it were a componet in a system. Getting the right combination may cost as much as any other type of upgrade and can be just as significant.
One word of warning is to stay away from products from a company called DakiOm. Some of the products can damage certain componets... and while the effects can be entertaining, they are anything but truthful to the source.
Other than Chuck's (Krell_man) post, which of the other posts were rude and/or idiotic? (And even Chuck's post was only slightly rude, as it was more condescending than actually rude.)
FYI: Personally, I took more offense at your post, than I did of Chuck's to be perfectly honest.
Good isolation tweeks are definately worthwhile. Cones, pods, pucks - they all have a noticeable effect, especially on source components. Try some and see what works for you.
Any anti vibration tweaks are good.The power cords at right angles is a good idea also.If it can't be done,the next best thing to do is keep a good distance between them.Run power cords down one side of your rack/shelf,interconnects down the other side.That helps keep the AC power,that may have radio frequency interference out of it too.The manufacturers have a lot of filters blocking that in the power supplies.Doing your part to help usually pays of.The manufacturers are big time tweakers' with their budgets,plus they don't know your listening environment like you do.
Agree with Rhljazz on the GIK panels... and agree with Jgiacaloon that rubber/cork/rubber pads @ HVAC suppliers are more effective and less expensive than Vibrapods. I found the Vibrapods to suck the life out of the music.
Macdadtexas - I agree that people need to chill. Let's not forget we all started as newbies.
I sincerely apologize. It was a rough day and I couldn't believe your question. That is until I realized that you are indeed new to this game.
That's why I suggested to read, read, read, there are many threads concerning these items with many different opinions.
In the end, it's not the tweaks that are the most important, it is understanding why these tweaks exist. They exist to try to deal with those sound waves bouncing around the room, because when they hit the components, the components will vibrate and that will cause the components to modify or distort the signal being generated.
Dealing with removing these vibrations so that the signal sent out of the components is as clean as possible is the why. The Vibrapods, Audio Points, etc., etc., etc. are different ways to try to keep the components more stable in order to send a cleaner, more true signal.
I thought that it was more important for you to understand the why, then read all of the zillion threads and differing opinions and thoughts on which one is more suitable. There's no best, only what works to your ear. I really like Sistrum stands and Audio Points, but have recently found the opposite way of thinking device, the Harmonic Resolution platforms, equally as good.
AC and signal leakage from and into other cables is also why people say to cross cables at a 90 degree angle. I also like using the Mapleshade tripod that raises the cables 8" off of the ground and also allow for cable stringing and isolation.
But the best route that I found for me was to find cables that are very well shielded, both from leakage out and penetrating in.
Please understand the whys of these tweaks, and I believe that the different solutions and tweaks will make much more sense since you'll know the problem areas that they're trying to address.
Again, I sincerely apologize for being short and rude.
I can only give you feedback on one of the three things you asked about - anti-vibration devices certainly can make a difference in my experience.
I would qualify that, and further comment on any of the input you get here by saying this:
The differences made by any of these devices or techniques are going to be largely dependent on two important factors - how resolving is your system, and how discriminating are you as a listener? An encouraging answer to both to pursue this further then begs the next question - are the differences you hear worth the price you paid (which I guess is at the core of why you are taking a poll here)? Really, only you can answer this question yourself by trying various things in your own system. I would say that if it is NOT a very resolving system then some of these tweaks may not have a very discernible effect. If it is, then you may want to buy used and listen for yourself. If it doesn't warrant the price, resell them here at a minimal, if any, loss. If you decide to invest in one of those clever little clocks, or telephone calls that transform your entire system, I would warn you that you will not likely recoup that investment anytime soon.
In all fairness to the 'other school of thought', some of the science associated with tweaks is a little .... weak? Solid State Microphonics? Tubes without question, but SS? I can also see doing something with a CD / optical player. But what? Isolate? Couple to a surface? Hi hysteresis rubber? Lo? On granite? On Maple? or try a Maple / Granite laminate?
I'd love to give some of this a try, but my pockets simply are not deep enough and there is not enough time for testing.
Everyone says to 'experiment' with little or no convincing / consistent theory, as near as I can tell. Even the Stereophile article assumes the effect and how it works with no objective proof.
As for isolation devices, there is a ton of info on AA and in particular, a "shootout" of several well know devices conducted by Zog under "isolation devices binge" in the Tweaks/DIY section.
One point that hasn't yet been made about Vibrapods. Do not even think of using them without something underneath them. They will destroy the finish on wood and even metal (they etched the metal top of an amp of mine). The protective device has to be stronger than paper towel "doilies" too (I learned the hard way). I really dislike these things and much prefer the Mapleshade approach to resonance damping.
Isolation tweaks are really good and so is my teflon tape on ac plug's prongs tweak too. We are talking about my teflon tape tweak now over on the tweak forum at audioasylum.com
Jax2 - Your "observation" that investing in clever little clocks and teleportation tweaks is quite unwarranted as there is a 30 day money back guarantee on both products. Furthermore, could 1000 audiogon customers be wrong?
To echo Dopogue -- be careful with the vibrapods. They can be very destructive to gear and finishes. Had some that pretty well trashed the finish on a Theil center channel. I threw all of mine away. Would have burned them out of spite, except I was afraid of what THAT might do.
Of course 1000 people could be wrong! Look how many people voted for XXX (fill in 'favorite, here'!!!)
And, like voting, tweaks without coherent scientific theory are also an 'act of faith'. Look how many supporters politician X has even after getting caught in some amazing scam or in a relationship with a barnyard animal.
"In all fairness to the 'other school of thought', some of the science associated with tweaks is a little .... weak? Solid State Microphonics?"
Microphonic resonance in SS circuits (caused by fluctuating electrostatic forces in silicon chips and PCB traces)is a recognized scientific phenomenon. (Do a search on "Resonister.") I just finished treating all the chipsets and traces in my CDP with an anti-resonance paint that supposedly contains dense iridium. The improvement was astonishing and on par with prior circuit mods and piece parts upgrades.
Leave the room, you components! Yes, all this talk about vibration misses something that should have been obvious to this subject, and that is isolate your components, especially vinyl stuff, to an adjacent room space. That way, all the acoustic energy in the listening room will not impact your components. You will be surprised at the difference. I know, that is not often possible given PAF and other real world considerations. However, it should be tried on a temporary basis to give you a sense of what that change can do to improve the sound in your listening space. If you like the improvement, consider building an isolation box, especially for the turntable, where it will make the most difference. I have experienced two listening rooms where it was done and it made an unbelievable positive difference. It was easy to hear the difference, box and no box.
I would like to see someone who has his cables/IC's at right angles.Pictures please.I have seen this phenomen[sp]once in 59 years,but my eyes were different then,thanks,Bob
I have trouble believing that vibration traveling thru the air and vibrating a SS amp could have much effect. Audible!? Does the effect get worse when you turn it WAY up? Now, what is the modulus of elasticity of silicon? I know from experience that it is pretty brittle. A silicon wafer, from which integrated circuits and planar devices is manufactured is weird stuff. It'll break along 'cleave' lines in the crystal and if you 'tink' it with a snapping finger, it sounds almost metallic. Indeed, Silicon is a metalloid, a material having both insulating and conductive properties....Thus 'Semiconductor'. An integrated circuit is composed of many layers and many different materials. Oxides of silicon, Silicon Nitride, Poly amorphous Silicon, Aluminum, and various doping materials all go in to the fabrication of such devices. IC's are NOT a single chunk with a definable resonant frequency. I also suspect that it will resonate at different frequencies in different directions in the material, depending on what they start with.
I'll look up 'resonister', but so far a google has resulted only in some patent application paperwork. A look at 'Solid State Resonance' likewise yields no hifi applications at first glance. Now there IS a form of SS resonance which can 100% effect a circuit. If you have anything Piezoelectric, this WILL HAVE an effect. Old 'ceramic' phono cartridges come to mind. Other parts may also have such effects.
Audible? Now there's the question. The post immediately above this one suggests moving stuff to its own enclosure or another room. This would be a great way to test this idea.
Also, kind of an aside: Isn't iridium a metal and as such a conductor? Haven't you added another conductive plane to whatever you painted with it? Will anyone now be able to fix a board which needs a part replaced? Didn't you form another capacitor putting a conductor over an insulator which is than over another conductor?
Magfan, the whitepaper concerns electrotstriction and electrically-induced thermal expansion effects in monolithic silicon. In the experiment a tiny cantilever attached perpendicularly to a monolithic chip vibrated in various fundamentals and overtones, depending on the shape of the cantilever. The purpose of the resonister(unrelated to our discussion here) was to harness this electrically-induced mechanical energy. But for the purposes of discussion, the experiment proves that monolithics do vibrate from within--and thus propagate microphonics.
Now as to the benefit of applying an "anti-resonance" coating to the top of a silicon chip, I can only suggest that one try Uniko AVM as I did and assess the results. This mystery product is rumored to contain iridium, but as it is also represented as non-conductive when dry, perhaps the attribution is disingenious. In any case after applying it variously to clock oscillator, DAC, and numerous VLSI chips in the transport section, I heard what I heard: a substantial improvement in resolution, pitch & timbre, spatiality, and elimination of the last trace of synthetic "digital" sound that afflicts even a top CDP. One of the best (and simplest) tweaks that I've encountered.
Dg, I hate to be thick, but could you please provide a link to the article? I did a quick google for 'resonister' and came up with 1 reference which was apparently some patent application.
I will certainly read any link you provide, until it gets religious.
I have an idea I'd like to try, from my readings of SETI amplifiers. Where the SNR is Astronomical, (literally!) the signal needs major amplification. The amplifiers run in a bath of Liquid Helium. All molecular (nearly) is damped out since they are running at 10k or so (degrees Kelvin). This should also damp out most resonance / vibration and keep piezo effects to a minimum.
Furthermore, could 1000 audiogon customers be wrong?
You're kidding, right?! Yes, most certainly 1000 Audiogon customers could indeed be wrong, Geoff. History has proved over and over that not only thousands, but millions, tens of millions, entire nations can be misled over far more serious choices than an LED geegaw made in China, or colored pebbles in a glass bottle. People are vulnerable in all sorts of ways in all matter of choices. As far as the silly little choices we make here on Audiogon, one need only read some of the input here in various threads and you will quickly learn how varied people's stated preferences are. If you've been at this very long you'll also see with what degree of contrast others stated opinions diverge from your own observations. By all means, make your own choices. I don't pretend to speak for anyone but myself. I made no "observations" or comment on your products other than their resale value on the used market. I've most certainly have poked fun at them in the past. I find them very easy to poke fun at because at face value they occur to most people with conventional reasoning powers to be ridiculous. From your advertisements, you actually seem to have a sense of humor about them...either that, or your elevator ain't making it to the top floor.
Your "observation" that investing in clever little clocks and teleportation tweaks is quite unwarranted as there is a 30 day money back guarantee on both products.
In case I was not clear; my comment was referring directly to buying items used and reselling at minimal or no loss. I have very rarely seen a used Clever Little Clock here on A'gon, which means one of four things to me (one could posit more if one were inclined to contemplate this at length - I am not):
1. The folks who buy them are delighted with the results and are hanging onto them to hand down to their grandchildren. My grandfather only left me a wooden tool chest and his stamp collection.
2. The folks who buy them are less than delighted with their effectiveness as an audio tweak, but like the conversational novelty of having one, and or are in need of a cheap time piece for the bathroom. I'm sure some of them may be wondering why the flushing of the toilet actually sounds better with the clock in place there.
3. The folks who are buying them are taking full advantage of your 30 day warranty and are returning them after trying them out. I'm sure this never happens so we may as well just strike number 3 and forget I ever mentioned it.
4. The folks who are buying them are just too embarrassed that they made the purchase and had allowed the 30-day period to lapse before realizing what they were less than delighted at what they'd paid for.
Of all the tweks, I think isolation devises are the best way to improve sound quality, particularly under source components. I used Vibrapods/cones under my TT. I set them points up on my equipement rack shelf (which is made of glass which I hear is the owrst kind of shelf re resonance)then I placed a sheet of mdf board on top of the pods, and have my TT on top of the mdf. That way I can use the leveling feet of my TT. It makes a differencce isn all areas compared to no Vibrapods/cones. My TT does not have a suspension, so it definately improves the sound quality.
However, pods have a drawback-there is no way to level them. If the pods had screws so you could replace component feet with the pods/cones, and have the ability to level them, it would make a good product better.
I have been using shorting plugs on my Preamp inputs and on any other unused digital inputs. Never use them on outputs. They do make a difference, slight, but a cheap improvement.
Some vibration control devices such as Vibrapods fattens the sound. Sharp cones usually is the opposite. Isolation bladders can or cannot improve. So Trial an error is recommended with these items.
Now the Magic Clocks, brilliant pebbles, I have them all and they do improve the soundstage. Geoffkaitis really on to something there. Not sure why , but they do . Many people have bought them but are afraid to post because of all the crap you can get back in replies. I actually did a review of them, if you care to read it its in the Audiogon Review section.
I also own Acoustive Revive RR-77, Alan Maher Circuit breaker filters and have used the copper sleeves over power cords IEC and also HIFI soundguys teflon tweaks.
I guess unless you try these things you really shouldnt comment on there effectivesness.
Now the Magic Clocks, brilliant pebbles, I have them all and they do improve the soundstage. Geoffkaitis really on to something there. Not sure why , but they do . Many people have bought them but are afraid to post because of all the crap you can get back in replies. I actually did a review of them, if you care to read it its in the Audiogon Review section.
Your grandchildren will be bustin' their britches when they find out that, among the stuff you've left to them is jar or two of BP's and a Clever Little Clock. Did you purchase the phone call from Geoff too? I wonder if those phone calls skip a generation or can be passed along with the gear. Geoff?
Your review, well, actually the responses to it, make for some very entertaining reading. I've found that any mention of Geoff's products tends to render some amusing responses.
I guess unless you try these things you really shouldnt comment on there effectivesness.
I agree.
For the record, I have not tried any of Geoff's products. As I've made clear, I find them ridiculous at face value and certainly feel fine in stating as much publicly. I am very confident the majority of rational people would have a similar viewpoint. To be fair to Geoff, I am not basing my comment(s) on experience with his colored pebbles or LED clocks, or phone calls or any other tweak he markets,but simply on common sense. They are not intended as opinions on the actual function of the product or a review of the product since I have not heard them and likely never will.
Ozzy, my hats off to you for posting your review in spite of ridicule (my own included). I have no doubt you believe what you are hearing and that's what counts. I wonder how it would show up on a room response curve, though that's really not what matters, is it? So when you take all the pebbles and LED clocks out of the house and place them in a lead box with sacred symbols engraved in it, in the tomb of a nearby church, synagogue or in a vault at the nearest NASA facility...you know, so that none of the mojo gets out, does your system go back to sounding like just your run of the mill, pedestrian Pass-labs/Eggleston/Cary ho-hum system again? Kind of like waking up the morning after a bender to find what you'd slept with the night before was not at all what it seemed to be when you made that choice just a few hours ago?
Alas, I don't think I could be so open-minded to enjoy the benefits of the Geoff's offerings. I believe that this would be a requirement as the benefit of his stuff begins and ends in the grey matter. I guess my grand kids are just getting that tool chest, a few stamps, and an old sweater or two. Maybe they can come visit your grand kids and enjoy Geoff's tweaks there. Oh my, this is sad. I'm going to go drown my sorrows in cheap whiskey and cry myself to sleep in the corner of my bathroom where the toilet sounds like shit when it flushes because there's no clever little clock in there.
I guess unless you try these things you really shouldn't comment on their effectiveness.
First, let me say that Ozzy has clearly assembled a system of exceptionally high calibre, and I have considerable respect for the great majority of his posts which I have seen here. And I am in general agreement with the quoted proposition.
But I would add that there is a finite limit to the circumstances to which the quoted statement is applicable. To roughly paraphrase a comment that was made some time ago in an unrelated thread by the estimable Tvad, you don't have to conduct a controlled clinical trial to determine that a witch-doctor cannot cure cancer by shaking a rattle and burning incense. Some things are self-evident.
Jax2, You need help. Perhaps thats why you dont post your system. Is it Bose?
Almarg, Tweaking is part of the fun for me in this hobby. Always to remember to keep an open mind and experiment. You may never know if it will do anything until you try it. Sorry, dont buy the Witch Doctor comparison. Its not cancer we are talking about its trying out different tweaks in our systems and having fun.
Remember the surprise when you first tried a high end power cord? Remember thinking; how the heck can a 5 foot power cord improve the sound quality when there are miles of power cable leading to my house? Well you tried it and today most Audiophiles recognize that a proper power cord is basic equipment.
Ozzy - please accept my apology...I really meant no offense to you. Most folks who know me around here know I have a rather acerbic sense of humor and like to poke fun...even at myself. I do know that I sometimes go too far, and if you actually took offense, I am sorry. My opinions of the Dynamica products have been honestly stated, albeit illustratively embellished with images some prefer not to savor. I also meant it when I said that I believe you should make your own choices. You do have my respect for posting your opinion, make no mistake about it. Geoff's products do occur to me as totally ridiculous simply at face value, make no mistake about that either. Nice system, BTW!
To roughly paraphrase a comment that was made some time ago in an unrelated thread by the estimable Tvad, you don't have to conduct a controlled clinical trial to determine that a witch-doctor cannot cure cancer by shaking a rattle and burning incense. Some things are self-evident.
Well said (Grant!) - thanks for the quote Almarg. I'd have to agree that this applies to my own opinion in this case. Some people would strongly disagree and argue pointing at the minds power of healing, etc. That is where my comment that the effect of tweaks like Geoff is marketing begin and end at the grey matter. I don't believe in them (that's probably the most polite way I could put it) and therefore I'm quite certain they'd have no effect on my experience of my system. It's like going to church when you don't really believe in god (just an example, not necessarily my viewpoint). Geoff's tweaks are a leap of faith in that way. Sorry Geoff, I have no faith at all in them, needless to say.
Remember the surprise when you first tried a high end power cord? Remember thinking; how the heck can a 5 foot power cord improve the sound quality when there are miles of power cable leading to my house? Well you tried it and today most Audiophiles recognize that a proper power cord is basic equipment.
FWIW I've read some very compelling explanations why power cords do make differences that actually make sense to me, even with a laypersons understanding of such things. I've never been really wowed by the difference a power cord can make in a system, though certainly I've heard differences in resolving systems like my own close-n-play system (I have to quit crunching my Capt'n Crunch in order to hear it though), and can appreciate what they can do. For me personally those differences I have heard are not worth the premium that is charged by many of the manufacturers of those cords, but hey, if folks want to pay that much for that kind of difference, that's their own business. That said, I do have power cords that seem to render a positive difference in my system, which some would opine that I paid a ridiculous price for. It's all relative. I have never read any compelling explanations why any of Geoff's products do anything beyond tell time and decorate the top of components with colored stones. Reading the "Papers" on his website are just about as entertaining as reading one of the threads commenting on his products. I'm sorry, I just can't take it seriously - it occurs to me as absurd. Mebee I just to dum to undastand it? The circuitous explanations occur to me to say something to the effect that these things work because, well because they work. I must not have read them hard enough.
Some of the best Isolation feet that you can buy are large brass Mi-Rollers and you can make them even better by wraping them tightly with teflon tape. This dampens the mi-rollers from vibrations. I put two coatings of Oatey's teflon tape on each mi-roller.
Jax2 (Marco), I know the reason you're so opposed to the Clever Little Clock and I'm gonna let the whole Audiogon community know the truth.
You bought one last September and after some testing you decided to go for the refund.
Before you could box it up and ship it back, one of your big dogs chewed it up and deposited it in the yard where you were unable to tell Clever Little Clock from puree of Gravy Train.
Driven to deep depression, you immersed yourself in Elton John albums at ear splitting levels, causing one of your Klipsh drivers to blow more than Elton John at a YMCA.
Understandably, you're still depressed but lets be honest here.
On a more productive note to the OP's query. I recently did a test of isolation products a few months back. I can't recall the name of the product I was trying as it was supplied by a friend, but it was a rubber-based isolation product. I compared it on my front-end digital components comparing it to my favored Sistrum stands, which are metallic cone-based systems. I could certainly hear a difference between the two options. The Sistrum sounded more focused and clearly etched. There was a particularly muted vocal passage in one cut that became much more easy to hear and understand. The rubber based isolation product (It was not Vibrapods, which I have also used) sounded a bit softer and less focused, and the particular vocal passage was nearly impossible to make out. Just my .02 Lincoln's but this says to me that isolation products can sound differently and it would be worth trying out various products yourself. I had a similar experience with Vibrapods as one poster already noted; they made marks on a component that were not removable by any means I tried. They also marked up wood. I would not use them myself, simply for that reason. This speaks nothing at all to their effectiveness, and I think the manufacturer is aware of the issue because they did assist me in trying to find a product to remove the marks (not successful).
Semi: What about XLR shorting plug? you solder both "+" and "-" to GND?
That's a good question, and I'm not sure whether it would be more optimal to just short pins 2 and 3 to each other, or to also short them to ground (pin 1). A theoretical argument could probably be conjured up to support either approach. In practice, my guess would be that generally there would not be a perceivable difference between the two alternatives.
Jax2 , were cool. I know that the Machina Dynamica items seem like wild unbelievable stuff. Albertporter, perhaps Jax2 could have his dog sit in the center of the room for better imaging. Enough said about this on my part.
Here are a couple more tweaks that I have found to be worth while.
1.Apply Quicksilver Gold at the ends of the copper wire at the dedicated circuit breaker , also apply it on the ends of the wire at the dedicated outlet.. Funny, I did not like the Quicksilver Gold on my speaker spades, power cords, or interconnects. It might be that the wire used in home wiring is a much lower grade to start with and the Quicksilver Gold improves on that connection.
2.I have also been using the new Alan Maher CBF items, and again, they do something positive to the openness of the soundstage.
Audio Desk Systeme, a machine that shaves the edges of a cd at a certain angle. The improvement is quite obvious - better dynamics and clarity. I don't have to turn up the volume as much at night to hear the music. Well worth it...
I had never heard of the Alan Maher CBF. I went to his website and found that this guy has all kinds of electronic stuff designed to improve sound. I didn't understand anything I read on this site so I am asking now if you guys really like his products, and if so, which ones are worth trying?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
