Turntables

The archives seem to have plenty of positive comments on it.

Certainly, one of the better "just enjoy music" tables for anyone who wants a "set it and forget it" type of setup.

Especially good buy used.

Deviations from conventional thinking are usually not a good ideas. There are exceptions and the P10 is not one of them. It is however an excellent turntable for the money with a very decent tonearm. To achieve the best performance from it it would need to be placed on an isolation platform like a MinusK. If you have foot fall problems it will have to be on an isolation platform on a wall shelf. 

The Thorens TD1600 is a much better value and it also has an excellent arm.

For a little more than a P10 you could get a Sota Sapphire with a Kuzma 4 Point 9 and that could easily be a final table. 

It could be a winner.

One cartridge on a ’fixed’ tonearm, that is my only concern about very many new TT’s.

Do you now, or intend to have MONO LP’s (many many great Jazz LP’s are MONO).

Will you want ’alternate’ stereo cartridges? i.e. MM; MC; elliptical; advanced stylus shape; one with a brush for warped LPs?

An arm with a removable headshell allows these options in the future.

Another consideration is choosing a TT that allows you to ADD a second tonearm if you want, that arm could be the removable headshell type.

..................................

In any scenario, replacing the supplied cartridge with ’better’, or ’when worn’ requires a mix of skills and a few in-expensive tools. A dealer? friend? Acquire the skills yourself? For life, acquire the knowledge/skills/tools yourself!!!

IF DD is a consideration; and IF Technics appeals to you:

Technics B500 VTA on the Fly base, several instantly changeable arms, add any number of removable headshells,

You would need to convince the seller to ship, perhaps you arrange 'pack and ship', seller merely drops it off.

Regas are about as idiot proof as a turntable can get but not necessarily audiophile proof. Do things Regas way and they’re fine but pick something else if you want adjustability to fine tune or accommodate different cartridges they’re not the answer. Used on its own terms a p10 is a pretty decent deck and Regas top phonostage is the perfect match for it.

If DD is of interest the STST Motus DQ might be worth researching. Yes more than a P10. Also great with a Kuzma 4pt or Primary Control Arrow arm but still very good with a Groovemaster III for example.

Disclosure: I represent STST :)

If you have a sturdy and nonresonant shelf or base for it, Rega P10 is just fine. Go for it.

Of coarse Rega sells their own wall shelf as well.

I've not heard the 10, only the 8.

It was easily amongst the best turntables I have heard.

By that I mean to say that if someone had told me that I was listening to a reel to reel tape deck I would not have been surprised.

Virtually no surface noise, stable image, rock solid timing, and a feeling of assurance rare in turntable replay.

Perhaps, and it's only perhaps, there could have been even more bandwidth and a deeper bass.

The only other area I've heard anything significantly better was in image size and depth, but that system featured entirely different amps, speakers and room, so who knows?

Anyway, it completely transformed my opinions of the Rega P8. 

Perhaps, sometimes less is more?

I have a P8 - it is an excellent turntable for the money and as with all Rega's isn't something you can upgrade as easily as other brands (VTI, Linn, etc.).  I expect the P10 is an upgrade specifically because of the tone arm.

I chose the P8 over a Linn because it meant I'd have to replace the table if I wanted to upgrade anything beyond the cartridge and phone stage. 

I know myself and frankly bought it to enjoy the several hundred LPs I have and recognize my analog system is used 10% of the time and is more about the engagement.  My digital and analog sources are approximately equal in sound quality.

Thanks for all the comments/advice! I do have some mono lp's that I intend to play and want to acquire more. I will have the Rega Aphelia 2 cart, which is a mc, stereo one. I can't find out if Rega has a dedicated  mono cart, as I'd like to stay in the Rega ecosystem. But that is potential issue. I could get a 3rd party mono cart, but with the RB3000 tonearm, I would probably need spacers to use one. It's always something, isn't it? Lol! 

In my experience, the lightweight design of the P10 conveys music with pace and reproduces rhythms well. Compared to high-mass turntables, the P10 perhaps has a tone quality that is not quite as full or as warm.

I've heard a P10 with a Hana ML cartridge and really liked that combination. The Hana cartridge seemed to add a bit of warmth compared to the Rega MC cartridges.

In my experience and in my opinion, Rega produces turntables that consistently rise to the level of mediocrity below their inflated retail and their selling price. 

That's JUST my opinion and my experience.  Your opinion and experience may be different.  

I have migrated from Mass to Lightweight>Rigid and with Stabilised Properties on my Plinth Design in use.

I am in the process of taking this method up a notch, and will be upgrading a used material, to one that has properties that will be difficult to surpass with the selection of materials available at present.

I have no concerns for the Rega Approach, they have adopted a method that is infiltrating the field of Plinth Design, where a material iis selected that has very good damping properties and a highly efficient dissipation, when compared to material used as traditional choices.

Learning more of the Rega material selection would be an interest to me, I will settle down with a coffee at some time and look into the design intent.

I cannot see myself considering a Massey Plinth Design, as a Bespoke Build for any future endeavours. I am very familiar with Massey Plinths in both Stone, Wood and Metal, the owned Stone versions are now limited to one only, that is a Branded Manufacturer's Design, there are a couple of Lead/Timber Constructed Plinths knocking about. These are now not the desired Plinth that is seen to be the best mounting for a TT's Chassis or Mechanics.

+1 mijostyn

I have the Thorens TD1601, same as the TD-1600 except it has auto lift and shut off. I run it with a Ortofon Cadenze Blue and a Hegel V-10 pre. Buying new I would go with the Thorens. I went from a Rega P8 to the Thorens and am very happy with the results. 

I have had a TD1600 on order for months…waiting for the walnut plinth.  Have a 2M Black LVB waiting to use with it.  Your comment and Mijo’s are the first mentions I’ve seen here. Good to have my choice validated in advance!  It will replace a 35 y/o WTT/TA I’ve been using.

@morsegist 
Do yourself a favor and take a hard look at Dr Feickert Volare. Huge bang for the buck and enough money left over for an arm upgrade or a fine cart. This is where I landed and am very happy. 

Good Choice!

Basis 2001 used and Origin Live(Calypso and above) are super value for the money!

Audionut51

Morsegist, you do not need two tonearms or a mono cartridge to enjoy mono LPs. You only need a mono switch on your preamplifier. Most (not all) mono cartridges are derived from stereo designs by internal bridging of the L and R channels, which can alternately be done in the preamplifier. For a purist there ARE arguments in favor of true mono cartridges, but you’ll get most of the benefits from a mono switch.

Interesting, and thanks for that, overthemoon. I found a reference to this issue on the Ortofon website, which is loaded with great information, including videos..  See below:

Why should you use a dedicated mono cartridge for playing vinyl mono records?

On a mono record the signal is cut only in the lateral dimension whereas a stereo record is cut at +/- 45 degrees into the opposing groove-walls, see the below figure.

A stereo cartridge will be able to replay stereo and mono records, because mono is a special version of stereo where the right and left channels are identical.

While a stereo cartridge can play mono records it can’t achieve the same signal precision between the two channels. A mono cartridge produces but one signal that is directed to both channels in the system. A mono cartridge playing a mono record produces a more forceful and stable image with a fuller, more impactful sound.

Another big advantage in using a mono cartridge to play mono records is the absence of response to vertical movement. This means that a mono cartridge is basically immune to the pinching effect which comes into action when the stylus is pushed vertically upward in very narrow grooves. Also the response to dust, dirt and wear is reduced substantially. The final result will be a clean and noiseless reproduction of the mono record.

Did you read where I wrote “for the purist”?

What does Ortofon sell?  Answer: Cartridges!!!  And the more of them you buy, the better it is for Ortofon.  You came here looking to buy a particular turntable which happens to have the limitation that it can mount only one tonearm.  Others made you feel that your life will not be complete until you have two tonearms, one for mono LPs.  I am telling you that 90% of the benefit of playing mono LPs in mono can be had by using the mono switch on your line stage; you don’t “need” a mono cartridge.  You are of course free to spend your money however you wish.

Sure, I saw that. Sadly, my pre doesn’t have a mono switch. I haven’t looked, but I suppose there is such a switch I could chain into the system. But, I do like to fiddle, so I’ll probably get Ortofon’s 2M Mono SE cart. There will be some trouble to go to, changing the thing on and off. But I’m hoping it will be worth the effort! We’ll see!

"great reviews by Rega afficionados" is enough to make mew question it.  I haven't heard a decent Rega table for anywhere near it's retail price.  None.

Well I've heard the Rega's vs the VPI Tt's at the same price point - the Rega's eat them. The P10 is much better than the Thoren mentioned above.

P10 is a great deck as evidenced by Michael Fremers review in Stereophile.

The new generation of Rega cartridges - heard top two - are lightyears better than the older versions.

A table comparable to the P10 is the Michell Gyro SE, though that was surprising to me.  I have the Michell and it's wonderful, both sonically and looks-wise.  I also have a hot-rodded P3 that performs like a P6 or better and though I still love that thing, I find the Gyro much more engaging.  But a reviewer who has both the Gyro SE and the P10 seems to believe they are on the same level, and at times the Gyro asks questions that the P10 can't answer.  He also has a Vertere yet still spins the Gyro all the time.  The Gyro has recently doubled in price though since I bought it (with Tecnoarm) so it would be close call with the P10, but doubt you'd go wrong either way.

@dover 

I am interested in your comparison between Rega and VPI. Could you be very specific in the sonic differences? 

My first failed attempt at getting an Audiophile table was a Rega… long time ago, and not at the level of a P6 today would be. My second attempt at an audiophile table was a VPI Aries… it worked… absolutely better in every respect to every table I had owned before it… not by a small margin… but huge margin. It was very very significantly better in surface noise, bass, details, musicality, midrange bloom and  rhythm and pace. The difference was mid-fi vs audiophile.

More recently I upgraded to a far superior table… a Linn LP12 nearly the top level with a Koetsu Rosewood signature cartridge. One thing I have become aware of is the idea of a “lively” sound… versus what I would call a dead silent background (massive turntables seem to have the later aspect), 

Anyway, I am interested in understanding the aspects of the Rega that seem superior to VPI.

@ghdprentice 

Yes - one of our local audio shops had Rega/VPi side by side for some years.

Comparing for example the Classic to the equivalent price pointed Rega they were both good, but for me the Rega had better timing, pace and rhythm and "cleaner" presentation.

My preference with a variety of cartridges was the Rega.

Since then the P8/P10 are significantly better than the previous P7/9 and RP series.

I am also not a fan of the VPi uniivots, they are not very stable - weirdo antiskate, low resolution arms that cannot get the best out of most cartridges. If I were to buy a VPi I would either get the gimbal arm or another make of arm.

Hence as a complete package in my view the Rega is easy to set up for non audiophiles, and delivers on timing and resolution.

@dover

Thanks for your comments.

"This" vs "that" is a futile pissing contest.

One of the "best" cart brands- Soundsmith, used VPI to demonstrate their fine carts, INCLUDING their top tier Strain Gauge setup on those crappy unipivots.

The Soundsmith  bookshelves and VPI's I heard(demoed by Peter himself) performed like a more costly setup.

Thorens!!!

Hopefully in between liking this versus that there can be useful information shared.

My limited experience points to lighter tables typically being “cleaner sounding”… maybe that is like “livelier sounding”. Which to me has sounded a bit like the images flickering around at high frequencies and with a bit higher sound floor… versus the more massive tables having a lower noise floor and more solid images. I would say that the lighter tables seem seem a bit more detailed… but That detail is coming at a cost. I find massive is more forgiving in musical reproduction and more solid sounding. These are important personal preferences. Anyway… this is a partially baked hypothesis. I don’t have enough experience to feel I could realy defend it.

My thinking behind this is that high frequency vibrations are absorbed and transmitted throughout light weight tables. Heavy ones just don’t move because of mass. Additionally, when I got a Silent Running Audio Ohio Class isolation platform to put under my Linn. There was a very noticable improvement in image focus and solidity and drop in the noise floor. This made it perform more like a massive table.

On VPI unipivot arms. I think they sound great. I think what @dover was saying is that he prefers using a different kind of arm (that the mechanism wobbles when you pick it up and the anti skate doesn’t feel highly refined)… as opposed to it sounding bad. I found the arm and anti skate work great… but it looks less refined.

I bring this up because how much I like using an arm does not show up in my list of priorities. If there was a unipivot arm that sounded better I would buy the unipivot again. That said… I have loved the two Linn tone arms I have owned because they are so wonderful to pick up and use. My unipivot sounded great and I would not hesitate to buy another if it was appropriate for the table.

For just a bit more, you might take a look at Pure Fidelity, a small but top notch Canadian company https://purefidelity.ca/ 

I had their Harmony model and truly enjoyed everything about it until I made the jump to my Palmer. 

Well I've heard the Rega's vs the VPI Tt's

Not much of a fight tho...

@ghdprentice 

On VPI unipivot arms. I think they sound great. I think what @dover was saying is that he prefers using a different kind of arm 

Yes and no - they have their place, but I think the VPi is not a great one - I have a Naim Aro in my collection of arms which is excellent. Hadcock is another bang for your buck - though strictly not a unipivot, it uses nested balls. Graham is quite good, though I chose the Aro over it. In the UK there are a number of unipivots that outperform the VPi at a modest cost - Roksan Nima, Audio Origami, Javelin, Vertere to name a few.

I just saw a used  VPI HR-X Turntable With JMW 12.7 Tonearm on US Audio Mart for $7.5k.

Do yourself a favor:  check out the Music Hall Stealth. $1650; comes with an Ortofon 2M Blue but features interchangeable head shell; on the fly adjustable VTA; direct drive and auto-stop. I'm sure a lot of folks will say it's too cheap to be any good and tout $5k+ tables instead. But if you're not made of money, the Stealth is a good choice.

I had one and thought it was great and the best TT at the price. The only problems I had with it were (1) as mijostyn points out, it was susceptible to footfalls in my vintage home with springy floors, and (2) the dust cover was rather flimsy. I solved both problems with a Townshend Seismic Sink and a matching acrylic dust cover that covers everything. Kept it for several years until the Apheta cartridge stylus wore out.

Ultimately, I sold it to upgrade to an SME but I still have the Townshend and the dust cover if you or anyone else it interested. Works great with the P10 or any Rega. Let me know. Can send pics.

I got the P8 when they first came out to replace my P5 (did the arm first). The arm especially is excellent. It is clean and adds nothing to the sound, which is what you want in a table.

Not sure if the P10 is worth almost double the money. I have mine sitting on a Townshend seismic platform on top of a wall mounted shelf. The Townshend improved the sound incredibly (but created foot falls with the frequency that footsteps interfering with the pods frequency created on the Townshend, and the shelf got rid of that as  recommended by Max Townshend himself (RIP)). My suspended wood floor over a crawl space creates all kinds of vibrations.

I looked into upgrading the arm and someone who sells Rega (OEM) arms who is very familiar with both said if the table is well isolated from vibrations, the extra $1500 or so for the arm isn't worth it. If that is true, I would say the P10 is not nearly as good a value. That's only the one guy's opinion though, and I am sure the RB 3000 is better than my RB880. When I originally upgraded the RB700 on the P5 to the RB880, the difference was startling. A friend of mine went from the P6 to the P8 to the P10 (thanks to Upscale Audio letting him keep exchanging them) - he said the P10 was "a little" better than the P8. He has since traded that in on an esoteric table with a linear tracking arm that is way more expensive. I like simplicity and am not at all an equipment hobbyist. Just a music lover.

If you are set on spending that much more, a lot of other tables are under consideration, but you will have to deal with matching arms and tables like the JE Michell, Dr. Feikert and SOTAs. I like integrated arm/table combos/designs, so the next one that comes to mind is an SME, but even their entry level table is quite a bit more than the P10. The Rega has no removable head shell and the wiring is straight through integrated into the RCA cable that plugs into the phone stage. Simplicity once again and no points of connection/distortion. And save money on tonearm wires and head shells.

Cartridge weight is more of an issue than height as you can use a spacer under the arm if needed. The light arm is better with light cartridges. I find the Rega MCs overpriced and use a van den Hul MC One Special with a well matched Sutherland LPS phono stage. For some reason, I needed a spacer on the P5, but not the P8. You are talking millimeters here and probably the difference between record widths is more that the spacers. Rega's philosophy is to not worry about changing VTA on the fly, and because of a decently long tonearm, that is a factor that should not be audible if the height is set to an average of maybe a standard or 180g record.

Enjoy!

Here's the P10 suggestion I mentioned.

Offer $4500, and you have ready to go table. If you don't already own a decent phonostage, find a used $3-5k  used piece  for  half and you will have a SOLID setup for reasonable cash outlay.

That's not a P10. It's an RP-10 - different arm, etc. P10 is much improved. P8 will beat this one I believe.

"That's not a P10. It's an RP-10 - different arm, etc.

I failed to point that out in my post. Nevertheless, If it can be had for $4500 or less, good buy.

"P8 will beat this one I believe."

sokogear-For the cash outlay with the cart, whatever" improvements" can be ignored by enjoying listening to the package for a sane price.

There's a little discussion on the Hoffman forum.

OP don't know your budget but this looks like a great deal   https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Turntables/FEICKERT-WOODPECKER-TURNTABLE/Table-with-TRIPLANAR-TONEARM/219759

If you can properly isolate the table from vibration, I’d go with Rega. If that necessitates a wall shelf, that can be a deal killer.I’d avoid a unipivot arm and buy from a local dealer for support. Not a big deal for other components, but for turntables IMO, it is  must unless you are a hobbyist.

great reviews by Rega afficionados, but not much notice from the TT community at large

I noticed that too.  The P10 is a spec marvel over the RP10 with a lower noise floor, better controlled arm resonance and tighter bass.  No denying it is more audiophile now and the reviewers love it.  

The enthusiasm for the RP being what it was, I bought one a year before the P10 surfaced.  There was no big sell off of the RP, and the contagious enthusiasm for it did not follow the P.  I'm thinking the RP is for music lovers, the P for accuracy.  

On the list of things that ACTUALLY affect sound, the turntable is right down there with water pressure in your shower.

The turntable can certainly affect the sound negatively by transmitting (and possibly increasing) internal and external vibrations.  Being the source of the sound, it is the MOST impactful component @secretguy. Not sure what you are smoking.

@secretguy 

Wow, I guess you have never been exposed to a real quality TT if you honestly believe that nonsense.

@secretguy 

On the list of things that ACTUALLY affect sound, the turntable is right down there with water pressure in your shower.

That's too clever for me, I completely missed the irony.

You were being ironic, weren't you?

Yesterday I refined the two tonearm’s geometry and two headshells/cartridges alignments for a friend. Long Arm: MC Stereo; Short Arm: MC Mono. We listened, stereo/mono for a few hours, switch arm in seconds.

Luxman TT has a two arm integral junction box with front switch A or B, thus single phono cable to his MM/MC phono stage

Alternate cartridges in headshells, pre-aligned for short arm: Shure mx97e, with damped brush for warped LP’s; AT14s for MM Shibata replaceable stylus (avoid unnecessary wear to more costly MC Stereo stylus).

He is soooo glad I advised him to get a TT with 2 tonearms. He had been ready to plunk down a lot of money for a Clearaudio with 1 arm, fixed cartridge.

https://www.google.com/search?q=luxman+pd444&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1007US1007&sxsrf=ALiCzsaOhkMoRDWByFdbn2Zx8pom0Gsipg:1664124599851&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicgIuds7D6AhX9g4kEHa-SDmkQ_AUoAXoECAIQAw&biw=1707&bih=849&dpr=1.5

There is more technology in that TT than I thought,

we chose Micro Seiki 505 and 505L arms (both silver wire) for it’s many features:

a. simple hole mount

b. VTA on the FLY base

c. Removable Headshell

d. Headshell fitting adjustable for Azimuth.

f. Integral Arm Rest,

g. Arm Lift, 2 way adjustable (raise/lower mechanism/adjustable length screw thru arm above lift plate.

h. adjustable dymamic tracking force (tungsten wire); and adjustable anti-skate (on the fly if you have steady hands).

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/micro-seiki/ma-505.shtml