@rauliruegas : Thanks for taking interest in my musical dilemma. May I please ask why you suggest those over the higher end SME, or air bearing turntables? Is that the sweet spot in pricing?
Thanks.
Turntable upgrade recommendations: SME vs AMG vs Technics vs other
I've recently upgraded most of my system, but I still have a Rega P8, with Linn Krystal cartridge, which I like, but I've heard that there may be better options.
I have Sound Lab electrostatic speakers, Ypsilon Hyperior amplifiers, an Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 pre-amplifier, and am thinking about an Ypsilon phono stage to match with my system, and a turntable/cartridge. I listen to almost entirely classical, acoustic music.
Based on my very limited knowledge, and simple research, I've been looking at three brands, each of which is a different type of turntable: SME (suspension), AMG (mass), and Technics (direct drive).
What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different types of turntables, and of those in particular?
Thanks.
Showing 45 responses by drbond
Thanks for including a paper on why you prefer a 9" tonearm over a 12" tonearm. My interest is piqued about FM Acoustics, and their FM223 phono linearizer. There are no reviews easily found on that unit in the US using a google search. I suppose there is a reason for that, although there tend to be plenty of reviews of other Swiss equipment, CH1 and dartzeel, in particular. I suppose that this means that the FM223 might be prohibitively expensive? Their website doesn't list any of their dealers/distributors either, which I find rather odd. |
Yes, I think I have to agree with you based on experience about your comment regarding active devices increasing noise. I think that is why I like the Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE so much, as it is very transparent and clear in its passive mode, and the electrostatic speakers ruthlessly expose any bad signal in the path. I would have to research FM Acoustics more, but, based on my first impression, it seems to be similar to dartzeel in using processing chips to convey sound in a SS fashion. While I don't like the idea of processing power creating music, I would find it hard to argue with results! |
Yes, I appreciate my Rega P8, but you're right, Rega doesn't get any respect in the audiophile community. Maybe there's some valid rationale for that, as they don't subscribe to either major turntable paradigms: mass or suspension. I am very happy with my Rega P8, but it would be interesting to compare to a "higher quality" turntable to flesh out the differences: strengths and weaknesses, etc.
Yes, the FM223 is apparently in very high demand, and it is quite expensive, at about 3 x the price of the standard Ypsilon phono stage or 1.5 x the price of the SE version. I would imagine that the FM223 would be worth it, but for me that would be like going from a base Mercedes to a top of the line Bugatti -- perhaps I need to go to the upper level Porsche first? (less expensive than the Bugatti, but more performance than the Mercedes). |
Thank you for sharing your ideal set up. I would probably agree with you if I had the chance to listen to that system, but I don't know if I'm ready to make the jump to a FM223 just yet. You definitely helped educate me about the true distinctions between a 9" and 12" tonearm. However, I do find it interesting that you recommend the Ortofon MC Verismo over the Ortofon MC Anna Diamond. The MC Anna Diamond is supposed to be a higher quality, but perhaps you know something about the cartridges that I don't? |
@everyone Thanks for everyone's input to this thread. I've learned much about analog and turntables, which I previously had no idea, which is the main reason I've had a Rega P8, simply because it's plug and play, and sounds good enough. Now I'm beginning to understand the interactions between platter, tonearm,and cartridge. Looks like the Rega P8 has a 11g RB880 tonearm, which is near to lightweight. I can't find the compliance of the Linn Krystal cartridge, which seems to be a deficiency in Linn's available spec sheet. |
Perhaps I miscalculated tonearm effective weight, as I did not take into account the weight of the cartridge. . . is that a simple additive process? Add the weight of the cartridge to the effective weight of the tonearm to get total effective tonearm weight, in order to determine the best compliance in a cartridge? |
Yes, thank you for directing me to that vinyl engine calculator. So the weight of the cartridge does play a role in affecting the resonance frequency, which does put the Ortofon Verismo right in the middle of the ideal range with an 11g tonearm. It does look like the ideal cartridge! Yes, I don’t doubt the FM223 is the ideal phono stage, but currently I’m having difficulty rationalizing a $70k expense for a phono stage, when I’m just gaining significant interest in LP’s, as I probably only have 200-300 in my collection, mostly classical, but also other acoustic (folk, bluegrass, jazz, etc). Would you buy a 27 year old SME 30/2 turntable without sending it to SME for a check-up? Would the main bearings need to be replaced after 27 years? Thanks. |
To answer your question about how many people buy $10k cartridges and $70k phono stages: probably alot more than either you or I think, or could imagine. Many of these high end manufacturers are based in Switzerland, probably for a reason: lots of money from all over the world to buy their products, and the $70k FM223 phono linearizer (phono stage) has a 2-3 month wait list. Look at the new cars these days: $200k cars selling for $350 because the manufacturer can only make 1000 a year (e.g. Porsche GT3), and that’s not even touching Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti, et al. In other markets, look at Rolex watches: a $12k Rolex new is selling for $40k used. In that market, a $70k phono linearizer could seem like a bargain! |
Yes, I realize that placing a spindle weight on the LP goes against Rega’s philosophy, but it sounds much cleaner that way; perhaps Rega needs to adjust their philosophy slightly? |
Thanks, yes I’m really enjoying the Ypsilon Hyperions and the pre-amplifier! Now, I’m looking at an analog / vinyl update, although the Rega P8 does sound quite good, although it does need some "tweeks" to help it: some (temporary) isolation footers (in the form of a hockey puck stacked on a practice puck) and an LP spindle weight help alot with the excess reverberation that I hear through the Rega P8, and really does improve the sound quality: perhaps Rega should institute something like this? Yes, I’m leaning towards SME now. Since I’m enjoying the Rega with those tweeks, I’m not in a hurry, but I will be interested to hear the difference between the two. It looks like I’ll go ahead with the Ortofon Verismo cartridge with whichever SME I end up with. . . Thanks. |
@alexberger @sokogear As you both comment, yes, expensive systems, if not properly pieced, could sound worse than a well-designed system. I think this is where this forum helps many people out, such as myself, who have little knowledge about and little access to audiophile equipment. I have learned a great deal by reading on this forum, and posting queries myself. Without this forum, and its contributors, such as @everyone commenting here, I would certainly not have a very good idea of how to piece a system together. So, thanks everyone! |
I don't see many recent reviews about the Oracle Audio Delphi (newest version) MkVI. Because of the brand reputation of SME, I'm leaning in that direction. All things being equal (cartridge, tonearm), do you know how the Oracle Delphi Mk VI would differ sonically from the SME 20/3? I'll have to read about the Transrotor tonearm, but from what I superficially know about tonearms (reading easily available reviews), I might lean towards a Graham Phantom III tonearm or a Kuzma 4Point tonearm. This decision would make more complex choices; however, the SME 20/3 is an easy decision and set up with the series V tonearm. From what I read about tonearms, the Kuzma 4Point was very highly reviewed, and if I were to get a Kuzma tonearm, I suppose I should consider the Kuzma Stabi R turntable. Any idea how the Kuzma Stabi R with Kuzma 4Point would compare to the SME 20/3 with series V tonearm? |
I ended up having to ship my Rega P8 to Mt Kisco, NY for evaluation, to David and Alma at Accent on Music. They are very kind and helpful people. They were going to evaluate my TT regardless of expectations. Fortunately for them, my Rega cartridge had failed in one channel, and I needed a new cartridge. (Mind you, this cartridge probably had less than 100 hours on it.) I purchased a $2,000 Linn Krystal cartridge from them, largely since they recommended it, and paid them for their labor as well, so I hope that they made out well .. . which brings me to this thread, as I have probably put 200 hours on the Linn cartridge since I got it back in September, and so my interest in analog is piqued, and I am consequently looking to upgrade even more! ...and it looks like Accent on Music carries Orotofon, so I think I'll be calling them to purchase the MC Verismo when the time comes. |
So, I communicated with a few of my email audiophile friends, and someone has heard both the Ypsilon VPS-100 phono stage and the FM223 phono linearizer, and his comments are that the FM223 was too analytical and too noisy; he thought the Ypsilon to be very detailed, but with slightly diminished dynamics. . . In the meantime, I heeded the suggestion by @lewm and got a SOTA relfex clamp, and it does improve the sound of the Rega P8 markedly so, even moreso than the spindle weight that I was using. The clamp really cleans up the sound coming from the vinyl, and it is a very noticeable improvment for anyone with a Rega TT! |
My friend actually is an analog-only audiophile, and has been for decades. He had the FM223 in his system for a few years, and then moved on to other phono stages, including the Ypsilon VPS-100, which he has currently in his system. I don’t know his actual music tastes, but he has extensive experience in listening to various components (if they’re analog). Yes, I suppose I could’ve purchased the Basis reflex clamp for temporary use on the Rega, while I decide on an exact upgrade, but one thing I like about the SOTA reflex clamp is that it’s not a twist on clamp, but just has a lever that you press, which I suppose would give more consistent clamping that a twist on style of clamp, which I think SOTA also has a version of. As to which clamp it better, I cannot aver, as I’ve only ever heard the SOTA. However, I’m sure the Basis is also an excellent clamp. I would recommend to anyone with a turntable that doesn’t come with a clamp/weight (which includes all Regas) that they should definitely try a clamp, as the sonic improvement is so marked that even my wife (who doesn’t even have a "good ear") can tell a significant improvement.
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Yes, it should be common knowledge among Ypsilon VPS-100 (phono stage) purchasers that an SUT goes between your turntable and the phono stage. Ypsilon has three or four various SUT for sale/use, depending on the output of the cartridge in use, and that does increase the expense, but *only* by about $3k if you get the basic copper SUT . . . |
Yes, there is always some "cost conscious snobbery of high-endism", but I find that there is also a performance difference with the coat as well. I have a 35 year old Krell KSA-100, which would only cost $1500 today, and it sounds really good, and while listening to it I am left wondering, "How could things sound much better?". . .but then I compare it to a newer $35k amplifier, and the newer one definitely sounds better, but then the next question is, "Is it worth it?" I suppose that’s the question each individual must answer for himself.
Yes, no doubt the SOTA clamp helps with warped records alot, insofar as holding them down, but the sonic difference is very significant even on flat, non-warped records: *everything* is much clearer, cleaner, and more detailed. It looks like the screw-on clamp (marketed as the I-clamp) is quite a bit less expensive than the clasp-on clamp (marketed as the reflex clamp). I don’t know what the sonic difference, if any, would be between the two. . .
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The Kuzma Stabi R with Kuzma 4POINT9 or other Kuzma 4POINT tonearm is a possibility. I suppose the Stabi M and the Stabi XL would be more equal competitors for the SME 20/3 with the Series V tonearm, given the price categories. SME has the reputation and longevity. The Kuzma tonearm has rave reviews. I'm not sure how the Kuzma turntables compare to the SME. . . Insofar as the wall shelves, I'm not currently convinced of their efficacy in my environment, where my equipment is currently sitting on a rack on a concrete slab foundation. I would think the walls would vibrate more than the concrete floor here in Florida, as the walls are attached to the roof, and the roof is designed to allow wind to circulate under it. Not only that, but don't the sound waves from the speakers bounce off the walls moreso than the floor? Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays to all! |
Thanks. I appreciate your direction and recommendations through this musical journey. I realize that you recommended the Ortofon MC Verismo cartridge. Are you still of the opinion that the Verismo would match well with the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 and the Schroder CB 11 tonearm, or would the Lyra Atlas and Koetsu Urushi Black match better? Any other cartridges that you'd highly recommend for this turntable? What would you think about the top of the line Koetsu Blue Lace Platinum? |
Thanks for everyone's input. It sounds like SME is a leading candidate, and I may consider an extra Kuzma tonearm sometime in the future after that just for comparison. |
Thanks for sharing. My plan is to first upgrade my phono stage from the Manley Steelhead to something else. I expect a more detailed phono stage will allow me to better distinguish the differences between various TT. With the clamp and the pucks, the Rega P8 sounds very good, and much better than without those. Once I decide on a phono stage, hopefully in the next 6 months, I will then begin the TT search with more vigor. By the way, I heard that there is an audio show in Tampa, FL, which is coming up next month: Florida Audio Expo, Feb 18-22. I didn't see many analog companies attending, such as SME, Kuzma, AMG, or TW Acustics, though, so possibly not worth it |
What particular specifications in the phono stage do I look at to match with the pre-amplifier and the cartridge? (I learned the hard way (from @dover pointing out to me in another thread) that one very important specification to be met is that the input sensitivity of the amplifier needs to be less than the output voltage of the pre-amplifier. I was, however, well aware of impedance matching in the components.) Thanks. |
Funny that you should bring that up! One of my audiophile friends insists that I buy a Degritter for U/S record cleaning. I bought a VEVOR U/S record cleaner instead a few months ago, which I can tell really makes a big improvement. I (obviously) don't mind spending the money necessary for a significantly improved result, but I don't know if the Degritter is worth the $3000 price, when the VEVOR is available for $225. Ideally, I would compare the two devices side by side, to see if there's an audible improvement after the Degritter vs VEVOR, but I haven't done that yet. . . maybe that's a project for next month. . . |
So, I went to the Florida Audio Expo today, and I've been reading and reviewing more turntable recommendations and possibilities: firstly, the expo was pretty good insofar as talking with some other audiophiles and dealers about their systems. Unfortunately, they didn't have too many turntables set up for playing: I think there was an Acoustic Signature Typhoon, an Audio Note lower end TT, and a Dr Feickert Woopecker that wasn't set up due to a missing part. A Haniwa TT was set up with some odd one cone speakers. Overall, my system sounded much better than any system that they had there, most likely because all the components that they set up was around the $10,000 price range. My bias towards SME has diminished, and now it has fallen out of favor because of the inability to adjust the tonearm (azimuth in particular), and many comments abou it being overly analytical. My interest in TechDAS is piqued, as well as the Dohmann Helix, and J. Sikora. So, in summary, currently I'm looking at tables that weren't even on my initial list, and I'm not so interested in the SME, AMG, and Technics after doing more extensive reviewing, reading, and reflecting. Does anyone have much experience comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the Dr Feickert vs. Acoustic Signature vs. J. Sikora vs TechDAS in the $30k-50k range? I probably plan on making a decision before 2023 rolls around. |
After reading about Mike Lavigne’s musical journey, who has at least 3 active turntables, from his experience, it sounds like there’s no best choice at / above this level, but just slightly different, and best to be able to listen to several different high-end turntables, and to appreciate the differences in presentation. Maybe I should just buy one, listen and enjoy, with the understanding that there will always be slightly different, better in some respects, and maybe not as good in other respects. . . The CS Port brings up another interesting split in the analog community: linear vs. tangential tracking for tonearms. I understand that LP’s are cut tangentially. What does linear tracking bring to the table, realistically and philosophically speaking? |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your message above, you wrote "By eliminating tracking angle error and distortion, properly implemented tangential trackers give you the most accurate soundstage presentation,". .. Based on the context, I think you meant to write: "By eliminating tracking angle error and distortion, properly implemented linear trackers give you the most accurate soundstage presentation,". Regarding amplifiers, yes, both the Lamm M2.2 and Ypsilon Hyperion are excellent. I enjoy listening to both. Overall, the Ypsilon render a much smoother presentation, which is excellent regardless of speaker cable or interconnect used, while the Lamm are very detailed and clear, they are also quite sensitive to choice of speaker cable and interconnect and can sound flat/dark with the wrong cabling. Here is an email I sent to a friend about them: I will have to say that the Lamm is very good, but the Ypsilon does take the edge overall. The Ypsilon is smoother, although both are equally detailed and transparent. Both offer an equally substantial sound stage, but the Lamm separates the instruments/voices with slightly more detail and space between the instruments, comparing it to the Ypsilon with the Russian 6H30pi tubes installed. When I switched out the standard Russian 6H30pi in the Ypsilon for NOS 5687 tubes, the improvement is quite remarkable. The smoothness is still there with the Ypsilon, but now the detail, clarity, and balance of presentation are also present, which equals or slightly exceeds that of the Lamm. |
Thanks for the reminder not to get wrapped up in the analog / digital debate. They both can be excellent media, and appreciated for their differences! (I just demonstrated this to myself by listening to the same performance of Gilels playing Beethoven's Piano Concertos on both CD and LP today, and with two different cartridges on the LP.) |
I am looking at the top end of the manufacturers: so I was considering the Technics SP10R or SL1000R, the AMG Viella V12 (or similar), or the SME 30/2 or similar. If all the turntables are as good as another, then I suppose I would go with the Technics, due to ease of moving/fewer parts. If that's the case, then I suppose it just comes down to the tonearm/cartridge, and less so for the turntable? |
No. The problem is that there are no audio shops within 2 hours of where I live. It’s an audiophile desert here, so I was hoping to get some idea of the differences in sound between the different turntables, if any. . . To give you an idea of what it's like in Florida, I called about 3 shops, all 2+ hours away when I needed a turntable repair on my Rega P8. None of them were willing to step up, so I shipped my turntable to NY for a new cartridge installation. So, essentially, I will probably end up buying a used one unheard. |
@craig The Sound Smith Strain Gauge sounds intriguing. Looks like @millercarbon has one also. With my Sound Labs and Ypsilons, clarity and transparency seem to be what I appreciate most, but not a sterile, flat transparency, just a musical clarity, I suppose. The Ortofon Anna Diamond cartridge has also been recommended. . . Thanks for everyone else's recommendations to look at a few other TT. Brinkmann is an option. I didn't bother with TechDAS because I didn't want a $200k TT that looks like a space ship, although that's probably an oversight on my part, and perhaps I should look down the line in TechDAS. But overall, perhaps the cartridge is more important than the TT, in which case any of the above would be great choices. . . |
Thanks for the recommendation, but Miami is 5 hours away from me, and, as has been mentioned, dealers will peddle their own goods. (It may as well be NYC.) I was hoping a user had heard a couple of these turntables and could recommend what the strengths of one vs the other are, but I suppose not many have listened to these TT. Thanks. |
While I have thoroughly enjoyed the Rega, I think I'll move to a different brand, just out of curiosity, if nothing else. The Rega P8 sounds great to my ears, but I've found that you don't think the sound can get any better, and then you upgrade some component, and it does sound better. . .until a point, and I think I'm at that point with my speakers, amplifiers, and pre-amplifiers, but have a bit to improve on the sources.
I live on a concrete slab, so I suppose there would be no need for suspension, but you say you also live on a slab, but have an air bearing, which sounds like just a different type of suspension. Is the TechDAS the only type of air bearing out there, and how often does something like that malfunction? (I can only imagine dust getting in the compressor every year, and causing obstruction.) As for the presentation, I like it just to feel "real", whatever that is: hearing the detailed transients, the bow striking on the strings, the breathing, so I suppose in a word, it would be clarity, but not sounding overly analytical.
TechDAS is one I wasn't considering, but now that several have mentioned it, I think I should entertain it. How glitchy are the air devices? Are there any longer term problems with the compressor and air flow?
Yes, perhaps I should look at VPI, as @bubba12 also suggested.
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Sounds like the first comment on this thread by @solypsa sums it up nicely: I'm "in for a real treat" with an upgrade in the turntable. I received a Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 last week, and got it set up with 2 Schroder CB 11 tonearms, one with a Koetsu Urushi Black and the other with a Lyra Atlas cartridge. The sonic improvement over the Rega P8 is unbelievable! The performers just jump right out of the speakers, and present a perfectly real soundstage right in front of me. I would've never thought that analog could be presented so much better than digital, even SACD (at least with my current set up of Esoteric's K-01X). As many a commenter has remarked, digital just sounds flat by comparison. The analog sound is much more robust, which makes me wonder if there are some harmonics that come into play with analog that are not presented with the more "precise" digital signal. Perhaps the perfect digital measurements render a flatter sound, whereas perhaps if analog was measured, there would be more harmonics, which would measure more poorly? (I haven't read extensively on the subject, nor have I reviewed any measurements produced by turntables.) Regardless, the Dohmann Helix One Mk2 has been a real treat to listen to in just the few days that I've had it! I couldn't imagine the music sounding any more real than it currently does. . . I'm sure that the Air Force One/Zero and other higher end turntables offer more, but at this point, I can't imagine how much more. |
Thanks for helping me through this musical discovery process. Having had a Rega player since my fist audiophile days (first a P3, then a P8), I wasn't too enthusiastic about vinyl. However, when my Rega Apheta 2 cartridge broke, and I replaced it with a Linn Krystal, I began to hear what analog was capable of. . . and, of course, then I broke my Linn Krystal cartridge, and that's part of the reason that it was time for an overall upgrade, and I have to say that while I really enjoyed the Rega P8, the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 renders a much more musical and realistic presentation. Six months ago I had no idea about cartridge installation and alignment, but I used a SmarTractor UNIDIN point alignment to align the cartridges and adjust tonearm pivot to spindle distance. I've got an AnalogMagik on order to further fine tune the adjustments of the cartridge. The videos from that company have helped quite a bit. |
No worries. Thanks for your comment. I'm sure I would be very content with the SME or the Dohmann. They are both very good turntables, and I don't think anyone could go wrong with either one. The Dohmann allowed two tonearms, and more adjustability to the tonearms, which the SME does not allow, otherwise I would've probably gone with the SME a few months ago.
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Thanks for everyone’s contribution to this thread! Having individuals share their decades of audiophile experience definitely has helped me make more informed decisions with setting up an audio system. It’s all a very enjoyable listening experience. It’s fun to listen to the music, and experience what it would be like to hear some of the best musicians in the world who have lived in the past 60 years perform for me. It seems like I can feel the expressions / emotions of the performer and the composer more significantly with the Dohmann turntable. |