Tube Friendly Speakers - Down to 30Hz - $3000?

Circumstances changed, and I've decided to forego the monitor/sub combination. I'm going to wait for the right pair of floorstanders.

At least that's the plan tonight...

:)

I'm having great success with my Tylers and tubes, even with their minimum impedence of 3.5 ohms. Couple of bucks more than $3000 used. I know you were looking to audition some - did you ever succeed? Caveat, they won't sound anything like your present VS's though.
Newbee (System | Threads | Answers)

Thanks for the idea. I was never able to audition any Signature System II in LA.

The VS4 have a minimum impedance of 3, and therefore I'm primarily interested in speakers with a higher minimum impedance...something above 6 ohms, if possible.

However, nothing is ruled out at this point except the current offerings from Zu.

Tyler Linbrook Sig Sys (LSS) , but its out your budget range, lucky if you can find used for $4K.
You might find a used speaker that goes down to 30hz used/$3K. But i doubt it.
Bartokfan (Threads | Answers)

Thanks for your input, Paul. See my comments above regarding the Signature System II.

Also, the Reimer Wind River retails for $4500 (25hz). I think it's highly likely they can be found used for $3000 or less.

Thanks to everyone's suggestions, other possibilites are coming to the fore.

08-26-06: Jdombrow
Add Green Mountain Calisto's to your short list. They are outstanding!

They go to 47Hz, correct? Not low enough (I want 30Hz), but I know they're excellent speakers.

Jim, I have not heard them, however I have read great thing about the Churchills. I do think they are probably too large for my 16x19 living room.

Senna, I haven't been able to find any info about the Cary loudpspeakers. Perhaps you can post a link?

Here's a good article from 6Moons that lists ten SET friendly speakers and amplifier combinations. It was written by Srajan, apparently before he discovered the Zu Definitions, otherwise I'm sure they'd have been on this list.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I appreciate the input.

Small footprint is misleading. My present loudspeakers have a 22"x13" footprint. Round about that size or smaller is fine.

Powered subwoofers in each tower are probably OK. A two-box solution versus two+subwoofer is mandatory.

Corner placement is not favorable.

At the moment Silverline and Coincident are likely the best matches. I'll investigate the Klipsch line further...Klipsch RF-7 (32Hz, 102db, 8 ohms, 16'x12' footprint, $3400)?

At 4 ohm nominal, the Tyler acoustics impedance spec is lower than I'd prefer. If I'm going to switch to speakers friendly to low power, I don't want to be restricted as far as amplifier choices.

No amp is yet chosen, but it will likely be a low-powered tubed integrated...think Easter Electric M520, Almarro 318A, Wright Sound WIA1515, PrimaLuna Prologue 2...or similar.

The adagio have a nominal impedance of 6 ohm, and sensitivity of 89db...identical to my VR4 Gen III HSE. The VR$ have a minimum impedance of 3 ohms. Does anyone kjnow the Adagio's minimum impedance?

I'll check out the Cabassse.

Someone else reminded me of the Reimer Wind River. They fit the bill. I have heard their big brother, and it was excellent.

Duke, the footprint issue is really a matter of the appearance of the speakers...which is to say a footprint of 14"w x 22"d would be acceptable whereas a footprint of 22"w x 14"d would not. The 14" wide speakers look smaller, even though the footprint is the same. A 22" wide speaker would never be acceptable in our small 16' x 19' living room (speakers on the short dimension)...

David, the Welborne Labs speaker info page is excellent. Thank you for that link.

Sensitivity @ 89db+ is fine. Flat impedance without dips below 4 ohms is more important than nominal impedance specs, IMO.

The Tyler PD line fits the bill specs-wise, but they are too large for our living room, and their styling will not fly with my wife or me.

How close to the nearby walls do you anticipate placing the speakers?

Approx 3 feet from the rear wall (no farther into the room), and about 2 feet from the side walls.

Can they be toed in?

Yes.

Given that the Tyler PD speakers failed the WAF test, can you give us an example of a speaker that would pass, even if it doesn't meet your other requirements?

She has no problem with the VR4 Gen III HSE, Silverline Sonata III, Reimer Wind River. Essentially, slim profile and deep is better than wide and shallow...and she would like nothing taller than the VR4, which are about 44".

If it turns out that you can't "have it all" at that price, in what area would you be least reluctant to relax your requirements a bit?

Price...within reason.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. There are some excellent ideas here.

08-27-06: Warrenh
Tvad, I see you have ruled out the Druids. What didn't you like about them?

I don't want to rehash this. Suffice it to say, they are not under consideration. Let's leave it at that.

The Speaker List (in no particular order):
Silverline Sonata III
Gallo Acoustics Ref 3.1 w/Ref 3 S.A.
Reynaud EV3
Triangle Celius
Acoustic Zen Adagio
Merlin VSM-xxx

Others? Comments?

The Integrated Amp List:
PrimaLuna Prologue 2 (KT88 or EL34, 40wpc)
Ars-Sonum Filarmonia SE (EL34, 22wpc Class A, 40wpc Class B)
Eastern Electric M520 (EL34, 24/18wpc Class A)
Wright Sound WIA1515 (EL34, 15wpc)

Others? Comments?

Budget buster, Sherod.

Another tube friendly speaker: Devore Gibbon Super 8...90db, 8 ohm, 36Hz-40Khz.

I believe with my desire for bass, there are only a few speakers on the list so far that I can seriously consider, and I have yet to hear any of them.

They are:
Silverline Sonata III (93db/6ohms, 25Hz-25Khz)
Coincident Super Eclipse III (92db/14 ohms, 28Hz-35Khz)
Reimer Wind River GS (94db/4 ohms, 24Hz-30Khz)
Tyler Linbrook Signature System (92db/4 ohms, 25Hz-25Khz)

The Tetra 505. Not $3000, but $5850. 29Hz-20Khz. 91db, 7 ohm minimum.

Tetra loudspeakers are owned by Herbie Hancock, Keith Richards, Ron Carter and Steve Hoffman among others.

Stereophile didn't particularly like the Tetra 505 LTD...especially John Atkinson in his measurements section. I suppose these need to be heard, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little bummed to read the review.

I called Kevin. Essentially his response after putting me through the standard salesman's buyer qualification was, "Listen to everything on your list, and then call me in a couple of weeks."

I saw a photo of the Silver Oaks. They look quite large. What are their dimensions? What are their specifications?

Silverline Reference 17.5. 90db/8 ohms. 32Hz-32Khz. $3500 retail.

Any owner comments?

Thanks, Duke.

A personal rant:
I live in Los Angeles. The second largest city in the USA. I have identified seven loudspeakers that I'd like to hear. None are available to hear in Southern California either because there are no dealers, the dealers do not respond to inquiries, a dealer will not demo the speakers because of the uncertainty of a sale, the manufacturers do not respond to my inquiry to locate a local owner or to arrange an in-home audition, or there are no local owners.

The speakers in question are almost all currently popular or recently well-reviewed models. Only two are what I would consider somewhat obscure.

When someone asks the question if high end audio is dead or dying, I will point out my experience. This hobby cannot survive without responses from dealers and manufacturers to a potential customer, and the lack of distribution does not bode well for the survival of boutique gear.

I thank all of you who have assisted in this thread and in private emails.

09-05-06: Aball
Yes indeed Tvad. But I'll tell you what I noticed as well: I travel all over the place and in nearly all cases, there were never as many hi-fi shops in the cities as in little towns.

I should add that when I speak of Los Angeles, I am including a 50 mile radius, which encompasses many towns in the surrounding area.

Anyone have any experience with Klipsch RF-83 (100db, 8 ohm, 29Hz-21Khz...$2500 retail)?

Rene, great reminder about the Soliloquy products. Thank you.

Marty, would you please provide a web link to OSS? Thank you.

I've taken a flyer...Soliloquy 6.0i/S10 combo...

In fact, I just inquired whether Walter has any further Sols speakers in stock.

Enjoy!

Rene
Restock (System | Threads | Answers)

He does, but not many.

BTW, the Soliloquy combo will be driven by an Eastern Electric M520 tubed integrated amplifier...

Silverline Sonata III is at the top of my list. The Coincident Super Eclipse III were under strong consideration, but I received too many conflicting viewpoints regarding their power requirements to make me comfortable.

Sbank, what kind of music do you listen to, and at what volume?

09-19-06: Pawlowski6132
Could you please rehash why you ruled out the Druid's?

I have heard them on five different occasions, and I do not care for their sound. Personal preference.

Pray Allah, please don't let this thread become a discussion of Zu loudspeakers...

:)

I would stick with getting the most through proper room gain from a great two way with 15 watts.

Petland (Threads | Answers)

For example?

Low power and 30hz bass aren't mutally exclusive, but not all that common either.
Spencer
Sbank (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers)

Agreed. The Sonata III and Super Eclipse III are two options in a very, very small field.

Thanks for your very thorough and thoughtful post, Joe.

Here's a dumb question...maybe not so dumb. If a major part of my goal is easy to drive, high impedance loudspeakers, then why not use Speltz Zero-autoformers to double or quadruple the impedance of my VR4 Gen III HSE loudspeakers, rather than buying new speakers with essentially the same impedance load?

VR4 Gen III HSE impedance = 6 ohms nominal, 3 ohms minimum.

By doubling the impedance with the Zero-autoformers, the nominal impedance increases to 12 ohms, the minimum impedance to 6 ohms. This would appear to be ideal for a low power amplifier, yes?

Newbee, you asked a very good question, and I don't have the answer. I was never aware that high impedance is an issue, unlike low impedance.

An amplifier manufacturer told me yesterday that the use of Zeros will reduce the maximum power available to the loudspeakers. So, they do not appear to be an ideal solution if using low powered amplifiers.

09-29-06: Sounds_real_audio
This may be crazy but why not go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest so you can listen to all those speakers mentioned about and many many more.

That's always a possibility. The speakers I have identified as possible candidates are from Reimer, Coincident, Silverline, Tetra, Tyler and Oskar Heil.

Only Tyler Acoustics is on the RMAF 2006 exhibitor list. Therefore, while attending the show might be fun, it wouldn't offer the primary listening opportunities I seek.

Garyralph, I have read similar coomments from others regarding a tipped up presentation with the Zeros installed. Definitely not where I want to go.

Do you have any specs on the Almarro M3a...frequency range?

Almarro M3a are 30Hz-26kHz. I have found no impedance info.

Almarro M3a...8 ohms nominal.

Jeez, I wish this thread allowed for editing of previous posts.

Hi Ozzy62, the Montana SPX are 91db/ 6 ohms nominal...pretty close to the VR4 GenIII HSE (89db/ 6 ohms nominal).

If I change loudspeakers, it will be to something with a minimum nominal impedance of 8 ohms, or one with a very flat impedance curve.

Do you know the minimum impedance of the Montana SPX? The PBN website does not specify.

Well, as usual, I am more confused than ever by the influx of conflicting information.

Although, I heartily appreciate all contributions.

Thought I'd give this a horse another whack to see if it was indeed dead...

It's amazing what one learns the more reads and surfs. Here's a pair of Decware MG944: 94 db/ 4 ohms...28Hz-22Khz. $849/pair!

Anyone heard these?

Nope. Shopping for the primary system.

10-14-06: Restock
Tvad, here's another one I ran across: Oscar Heil Kithara - unusual design and not the prettiest one out there but goes down to 28Hz and can be had below $3k (even one available now on Agon).

Yup. Saw that one too...look earlier in the thread. Actually started a thread dedicated to trying to hear these in S. California. Never did hear them. I'd have to travel to Central California to do so.

I'd like to find some speakers that can be used with a wider variety of low powered amplifiers primarily to reduce the investment in preamp/amp. In order for this change to make sense, the new loudspeakers must cost around $3k...new or used.

I love the way my system sounds, which is why I'm taking my time.

I appreciate all the follow ups. This thread has reached the end of it's usefulness for me as I have researched and determined all the possibilities that would satisfy my requirements.

10-30-06: Drubin
This isn't about you anymore, Grant. Sheesh...

Ha! No kidding.

My intent was simply to explain why I probably won't be responding to further questions. Makes me nuts when someone starts a thread asking for advice and never again responds or offers thanks for the help.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Feb. 2010 update.

In late 2007, I ended up selling the VSA speakers and buying demo Silverline Sonata III loudspeakers, which were close to my $3000 budget, and indeed went below 30Hz. Nice as they were, they turned out not to be as tube friendly as I had hoped...at least according to my listening preferences. The tonality with tube amps was always tipped up. In fact, after several months of "amp try-outs" I purchased Pass Labs XA-60.5 amplifiers. Outstanding amps that drove the Sonata III tremendously well, but not the low power tube amps I had set my sights on.

In late 2009, I sold the Sonata III loudspeakers and purchased Audio Note AN-E SPe HSE loudspeakers. 98dB/8 ohms. Bass extension to 16Hz, according to the manufacturer. I have not put a decibel meter on them to test the frequency response, but I'll venture it's down significantly at 16Hz. In any case, bass is natural, and the overall balance fits the listening space better than any speaker I've owned. Present amplification is George Wright Signature AU-15 tube amplifiers. 15wpc, 2A3 push-pull. They are a screaming bargain at their used prices. Retail was $3995 before they were discontinued due to George Wright's passing.

03-15-10: Lin3323
How much you paid for a pair of ANE-Spe HE, is it $3000?

No.

The AN-E SPe HE did not meet the budget requirements.

However, I have recently seen used AN-E SPe HE speakers in the standard finish listed for $4500 and sold in one day.

Present system configuration with the AN-E/SPe HE:

George Wright Signature AU-15 monoblocks
SMc Audio VRE-1 preamplifier
Esoteric UX-3 Pi universal digital player
Modwright Transporter wirelessly connected to MacBook Pro
Gabriel Gold Revelation II XLR ICs
Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval XLR ICs
Oyaide PA-02 balanced ICs
Morrow Audio SP6 speaker cable
BMI Hammerhead MK IV power cord (digital source)
BMI Hammerhead MK III power cord (preamp)
Oyaide Tunami GPX power cords (amplifiers)
Tekline Reference power cord
Alan Maher Designs Reference Power Center
Several Alan Maher Design PE wall filters
Two 20A dedicated outlets
Environmental Potentials EP-2050 whole house AC filter/surge suppressor
Salamander Synergy Cabinet w/ sorbothane treated shelf supports
Neuance shelf for digital source
Grand Prix Audio Apex footers (preamp and Squeezebox)
Stillpoints footers (amplifiers)
Timbernation 2” Maple amplifier platforms with 2” heavy brass cones under the platforms

I thought I'd post here even though substantial time has passed.

I took delivery of M-60 MK 3.1 amps today and installed them into my system with Audio Note AN-E SPe HE loudspeakers. The preamp is an SMc Audio VRE-1, and the sources are an Esoteric UX-3Pi and a Modwright Platinum Transporter. Cabling is a mix of Gabriel Gold Revelation II, Analysis Plus Crystal Oval, and Oyaide PA-02. Everything is running balanced.

Power conditioning is various Alan Maher Design products including a Reference Power Center V2 and a few PE filters. An Environmental Potentials EP-2050 whole house filter is installed at the service panel. Power cords are BMI Hammerhead MK3, BMI Hammerhead MK4, Tekline Reference, and Oyaide Tunami GPX.

I find the M-60 amps to be an excellent match. The tonality is balanced and properly proportioned. The image is fleshy. I like that quality. Bass is deep, extended and controlled. The mids are in proper perspective...neither recessed or artificially forward. The highs are extended and revealing, but not etched. Instruments and voices are well defined in space.

I was somewhat afraid that the M-60 amps would sound lightweight and that the result would be a tipped up presentation, but nothing is further from the truth.

Thanks to Duke for his nice analysis in an Audio Asylum thread of how these amps would match based on his interpretation of Stereophile test measurements of the AN-E Lexus model. It was largely based on his contributions that I decided to proceed with a purchase of the Atma-Sphere amps.

...an addendum...bass is a little full and plump at times. This has always been true of the AN-E SPe HE speakers regardless of the amps used, although Pass Labs XA-60.5 controlled the bass best.

I may need to futz some more with speaker set-up.