audiolover ...
I was just thinking about this last night and wondering if you had tried it.
Isn't it amazing how getting rid of certain micro vibrations can improve the sound of audio equipment? I've made a very serious attempt to attack micro vibrations throughout my entire system starting with my turntable, the electronics, extending through the equipment rack ... all the way to the speakers. The tube ring adjustment is just one example of what can be accomplished by paying attention to micro vibrations. There is so much smear to the sound that we don't know is there ... until we remove it.
So glad you tried it an got good results. Thanks ...
OP |
^^^ folkfreak ...
Thanks for the input. I have the top plates removed from each piece of equipment, except for the CD player of course. No kids or pets in the household. Just a couple of old dudes. :-)
Those Marigo Mystery Feet look really interesting. I've subsequently read some reviews on the product ... and hey ... If Mikey likes them ... *lol* I'll have to put them on the bucket list. Thanks for the heads up.
OP |
Audiolover ... If you take a look at my avatar, you'll see that I have an all ARC system. I've tried a whole bunch of aftermarket feet under each piece of equipment. Nothing seems to work better than the stock feet. In fact, everything I've tried has detracted from the sound in one way or another. I haven't tried the SR Mig's though. That 30 day return policy is tempting: http://highend-electronics.com/products/sr-migTake a look at my equipment rack. Each shelf is made up of three layers of plywood with a constrained dampening material between each layer. Then the entire rack is spiked to the floor. Going from the rack I used to have ( a cheap one) to this rack was a major improvement. Expensive though. I had it custom made to my specs. If you have floor standing speakers, you might want to try putting the unfinished (cheap) Mapleshade platforms under the speakers. Spike the platforms through the carpet, then spike the speakers to the platforms. That was a huge improvement in bass articulation. Improved everything else as well. http://mapleshadestore.com/feedback_maplespeakerplinths.phpAnother thing that helps is to get your speaker cables off of the floor/carpet. These are the ones I use: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue36/elevators.htmIf you have floor standing speakers, try putting weight on the top of each speaker. I have one 12"x12" x3" finished, very heavy marble platforms on top of each speaker. It in effect adds mass to the speakers. They fit the top of the speaker's exact dimension so they look good. Again, more clarity throughout the range and more bass articulation. There's tons of ways to attack those micro vibrations that rob our system of the music. I've just listed a few. Take care ... |
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smotojo ..
I have a friend that uses ARC tube dampeners on his "other than" ARC amp.
don_c55 ...
What kind of measurements have you don't to assess the "thermal flow?" Can you supply a study or a link? Thanks ...
OP |
^^^
Reducing micro vibrations is a major key in obtaining a highly resolving system. As a vinyl lover, the only thing I want vibrating is that needle in the record groove.
So many in the hobby, especially newbies, aren't aware of what can be done to reduce, or eliminate these vibrations. Tube dampeners are just one small area to attack ... even to the point of location of the tube rings on the tubes.
Could a new topic be in the offing? |
^^^^ Well, you know me ... I love "voodoo," .... fuses, cables, etc. :-)
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geoffkait ...
If the stock tube rings from ARC "suck," why is there such an improvement with them in the proper placement, and why the degradation of the sound when they are totally removed from the tubes?
I don't like to guess. What tube dampeners are you referring to?
Mapman ...
Have you tried moving the tube rings to the position suggested in the opening post in this thread? If so ... what were the results??
OP |
^^^ Mapman ...
Those Herbies dampeners look interesting.
Warren Gehl at ARC suggested that the two rings be pressed together and placed about 1/8th inch from the top of the tubes. No gap between the rings. It made a big overall improvement in my ARC electronics ... not subtle at all. |
^^^
Hmmm ... velly, velly interesting indeed.
I'm going to have to revisit those Herbie dampeners. |
^^^ Agreed. I've had the experience of over dampening a number of times. It calls to mind an experiment I did with shrink wrap on my Well Tempered tone arm. First layer - overall improvement. Second layer - no change. Third layer - a dulling of the sound. I settled on one layer and that layer remains on the tone arm to this day. |
Audiolover ... Thanks for the VERY well written report on the Herbie dampeners. Your experience isn't unlike what I've experienced with other tweaks that reduce micro vibrations throughout the system. What you've described is akin to getting closer to the sound of real instruments playing live in the room. Whenever I listen to live music, I try to compare it to what I hear in my system. This includes live concerts ... and my town's high school marching band at Friday night football games. (yep, I'm totally hooked on high school football.) What I notice with the live music is that it is really laid back compared to reproduced music in the home. Very natural sounding. No blare ... or "cringe factor," if you will. You're right about "seeming lower rez." That's what I hear with live music ... even when playing at its loudest, it still has a relaxed sense to it. You've got me really curious about the Herbies now. David 12 ... I have the ARC Ref-75 SE too. Just as a suggestion, exchange the stock fuse with a Synergistic Research Black fuse. The KT-150 is a great tube and allows for that "low grain" presentation and the good dynamics. BUT, what I thought was a close to a grain-free amp, was transformed with the SR Black fuse. Give it 50-100 hours to break in and you'll be amazed. Here's a link: http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-black-quantum-fusesThanks for the information on the Herbies goodies, guys. OP |
I ordered five of Herbies tube dampeners yesterday for the five 6h30's in my pre-amp (ARC REF-3) They should be here this coming Thursday. Stay tuned. |
To all of you who recommended the Herbie's tube dampeners ... THANK YOU!
I had five rx-9's delivered today to damp the five 6H30's in my preamp. All I can say is WOW!
An immediate lowering of the noise floor, letting a lot more of the music flow through the speakers. Nothing is subtracted except the distortion caused by the vibrating tubes.
Everything from top to bottom is improved. Most impressive is the improvement in the lower mid-range right where cellos shine. Lovely indeed. Vocals are much more tactile than before too. Again, its like a new record collection.
So, five of the tube dampeners cost a total of $140.00. Not bad considering that it is like an upgrade to a better pre-amp ... and that would cost thousands.
Now, over time, I will change out all of the ARC tube rings for the Herbie's dampeners. Amp and phono stage next.
I'm totally impressed.
OP |
Allan ... While I was listening last night it occurred to me that the improvement was a lot like changing out the fuses. With every fuse change there was less and less grain in the system. The tube dampeners are a lot like that. Its as if someone cleaned off a window allowing a clearer vision to the outside. The "outside" in this case of course is the view of the performers. Images are much more solid and the 3-D presentation is improved. Bass, while I don't know if it goes any deeper, is more present. Acoustic stand-up bass is right there in the room. The clarity of the highs are improved as well. I was listening to some orchestral music last night. One of my favorite pieces of music for relaxation is Bach's "Air On a G String." This particular CD is a wonderful performance of the work on the EMI Classic label with Leopold Stokowski conducting and recorded in 1957. The massed strings just reach out and waft over the listening room. Very romantic music with superior sound. Here's a link to the Japanese import: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stokowski-Leopold-Stokowski-SO-Bach-Stokowski-HQCD-Japan-Import-/26245752393...One of my "test" records is Dave Brubeck's "Jazz Impressions of The USA. Its a mono recording ... but the kind of mono that has you asking: "Who needs stereo?" I've played this record at least a thousand times over the 50+ years that its been in my collection. With every improvement in the system, this record reflects that improvement. After installing Herbie's dampeners last night, Paul Desmond's alto sax had presence like never before. I could easily follow the direction of Joe Morello's brushes on the snare drum. The rim shots were more distinct too. When I think back on how this album sounded years ago, and how it sounds today, I have to laugh. Its come a long way, baby. Who knew what was hiding in those grooves?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=dave+brubeck&_osacat=176985&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045...
Since I've been using Audio Technica cartridges, both the OC9-III, and now the ART-9, mono records have taken on a new life. These cartridges, even though configured for stereo, seem to get deeper into those mono grooves than any cartridge I've had before. The AT's just seem to extract more information. For a collector like me who has been collecting records for so long, there's a ton of mono records in the collection ... especially jazz. Herbie's tube dampeners have brought even more life to the mono records. Every time I make an improvement like this, I wonder how much more distortion is in the system ... and how do I get rid of it? The SR Black fuses brought things a long way in this regard. In fact, I made the comment in the fuse thread that I had thought the ARC REF-75se, with the KT-150 tubes was a grain-less amp. Ha! A simple change of a fuse changed that thinking real fast. Over the years, I've made a concerted effort to reduce micro vibrations anywhere I could. Prior to discovering the SR Black fuses I thought I had it covered. The fuses taught me differently. And now Herbie's tube dampeners have done the same thing. What's it going to be like when a full complement of the tube dampeners are in the system? And where do I go from there?? The next order of Herbie's tube dampeners are going into the amp and the phono stage. Should be nice. Thanks again, guys ... I'm stoked. :-) |
bdp24 ...
You're gonna be amazed. Please post your results here. Thanks ...
Frank |
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^^^ *lol* ... I don't want to kill you Allan.
Its just that I've been in this hobby for so many years ... since the early 70's in fact. That's how long I've been in the audio hobby chasing better sound, but I've been collecting music since the middle 50's.
When I find a tweak that really works, like the SR Black fuses, or the SR "High Frequency Transducers" (HFT's), and now Herbie's tube dampeners, my cup runs over with enthusiasm. Its fun to share the information with like minded individuals.
Another tweak I want to try is Herbie's "Black Hole" CD mat. I'll have to call them to find out if its compatible with the top loading ARC CD7-SErst. |
Allan ...
How much better? As I convert over to the Herbie's dampeners, I would be more than happy to send you the ARC dampening rings for free. *lol*
And by the way, I'm converting over with one component at a time just as I did with the SR Black fuses. Maybe one per month. Its like spreading out the "fixes" over time.
Gotta say, I was listening again this morning, this time to a Harmonia Mundi compilation of various cuts from a variety of their albums. This is another CD that I've heard a hundred times at least. Its one of my reference recordings that I go to each time I make an improvement to the system. This morning, it was like starting anew, like I've never heard it before.
The musicians on the Harmonia Mundi recordings use a lot of ancient original instruments, playing music from the 1500's and 1600's. A lot of what they do is recorded in old stone churches in Europe. Man 'O Man ... its really something when you can sense the stone and the age of the venue. And those instruments take on a whole different meaning as well. With the tweaks I've introduced to the system over the past year, you can really catch the differences between ancient instruments and modern ones. The Herbie tube dampeners has brought that out even more.
Totally enjoyable.
Frank |
^^^
bdb24 ...
My friend Warren and I took advantage of those Harmonia Mundi parking lot sales many times. Their location was about 45 minutes from my place going south down the coast highway. If I remember correctly, they sold the LP's for five buck apiece. No CD's of course because they didn't exist at that time.
As a result, I have a lot of HM Vinyl.
Then, years later, I happened to stop by a record store in Burbank just on a whim. Someone had traded in a ton of HM CD's a couple of days before I got there. They were asking $2.99 each. I was pretty flush at the time, so I bought almost all of them. There were a few dogs in the bunch, so I traded them in and kept the rest. I still have them in the collection.
I actually had a Harmonia Mundi listening session last night. It was all CD's as I didn't feel like changing records. The debate wore me out. *lol*.
The new Herbie's tube dampeners are so effective that every HM CD I played took on a new lease on life. Quite amazing actually considering that I only changed out the dampeners on the five tubes in the preamp.
I'm getting so much more inner detail and textural overtones from instruments now ... and that's without subtracting anything except distortion. The improved detail isn't etched or bright in any way, just more musical and closer to real.
When I get around to replacing the dampeners in the CD player, that's six more. What's that going to do? Zowie!
Prior to getting into the SR Black fuses, the SR HFT's, and now the Herbie's tube dampeners over the past year, I only listened to CD's as a convenience. With these tweaks in place, I've found that I'm listening to CD's probably 80% of the time now. So many of the red-book CD's have magic in those bits. Its a lot like going from an entry level cartridge, say like a $49 dollar Grado, to one of the better Audio Technica cartridges and then discovering how much information is hidden deep inside those grooves on Mono records. A revelation, really
Frank |
^^^
Don't bother sending them to Mapman. He won't hear the difference. :-)
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bdb24 ... Before I went to bed last night, I scored this on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262358885962I figured for $3.10 and free shipping how could I go wrong. Yep, like I need another recording. :-) Frank |
^^^ Yes, they are wonderful recordings ... and many are offered at bargain prices on Ebay. Funny that audiophiles are paying $30 to $50 for an audiophile pressing when for a few bucks they can experience the HM sound. |
^^^ A "factory?" I meant a "factor." *lol*
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^^^ Folkfreak ...
I'm not the person to thank for the Herbie's recommendation, that's for sure.
I do have a question for you though: Did you try the dampeners just on the signal tubes before adding them to the power supply tubes? Reason I ask is, I was wondering how effective the Herbie's dampeners were on the power tubes in addition to the signal tubes.
By the way, I'm having fun with my friend Robert in that I haven't told him about the Herbie's dampeners in the preamp. He's been bringing over some of his "special stash" of outstanding sounding LP's and he just keeps saying that he knew they were good, just not THAT good. Hee, hee ... I love a mystery. I'll spring it on him when the system is completed with the Herbie dampeners.
One of the records Robert brought over the other night included a bongo player in the right/rear of the sound stage. I've got to say, those bongos were right there in the room in all of their natural sounding glory. It was so real, we just about fell off of our chairs. An incredible recording indeed ... but who knew?
OP |
^^^
folkfreak ...
Thanks for the quick response.
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. I suspected that the power tubes would be a significant improvement ... but twice as good? ... Great, I'll save them for last. I suppose the increased glass/size of the power tubes is what makes the difference over the signal tubes.
Just changing the dampeners on the signal tubes in my REF-3 has made a world of difference. I can only imagine what your REF-40 and your
Phono 2SE
sounds like. It has to be wonderful.
I just love my ARC gear. I have an ARC Classic 60 that is used as a spare. It used to be my main amp. It doesn't have a removable power cord, no mods at all even. I had it completely gone through by the local tech this year. I used it when I was between the REF-75 and the REF-75se. Gotta say ... its warmer sounding and not as accurate as the latest REF gear, but man 'o man ... it just melts your heart.
Looking forward to more of your reports on the tube dampeners.
Take care ...
OP |
lostbears ...
I have the CD7-se. How was the improvement with the Herbie's dampeners?
Also, have you considered using Herbie's "Black Hole" CD mat? It has rave reviews. I contacted Herbie via Email and he says it works well with our top loading players. Its on my bucket list ... to do after all tubes in the system has been outfitted with the Herbie dampeners.
OP |
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Allan ...
I don't have a clue. Honest. However, I am getting such a natural musical presentation from the Herbie's tube dampeners by themselves, that I have no compulsion to try the ARC rings in combination with the Herbie dampeners. My audiophile friends are super critical and they are blown away by the system now, as am I.
I have 12 used ARC rings that I can send you for free if you want to try it for yourself. :-)
Frank |
Allan ...
Naw ... It'll be the REF-6 if I do anything. I have to have that additional 15%. Its a curse, I know.
Just a minute ago I as listening to the Dave Brubeck Quartet playing a live concert in Mexico City. It was like being there. I keep wondering how much more information can be gleaned from those record grooves and digital bits. More Herbie's tube dampeners will tell the story .,.. for awhile. |
Allan ...
After I made you that offer, I got to thinking that if and when I decide to upgrade to the next level in the ARC line (REF-6) I'm going to need the ARC tube rings to place back onto the REF-3 tubes. Thanks for not taking me up on the offer. :-) |
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Nope, never tried that.
I see you like the modern female jazz singers. I have all of Diana Krall's CD's. Most of my audiophile friends don't care for her, or her recordings. Too processed and too much digital reverb to suit their tastes. I like her though. I think she's a swinging piano player too.
I'm more into the more traditional jazz singers like Sarah Vaughn, Dinah Wasington, Jo Stafford and Billy Holiday. If you like great female jazz singers, you might want to explore these ladies. :-) |
folkfreak ...
Wow! That's a lot of tube dampeners. Odd, isn't it, that you're getting some real improvement from dampening so many tubes and yet in Allan system, he's getting over dampening as a result.
Allan ...
I think its possible to over-damp with some of these tweaks. Based upon my positive results by switching to the Herbie dampeners in the preamp, is hard to imagine that they would be a problem though. Nice that Herbie has the return policy.
I have Herbie's tube dampeners coming in Monday's mail for the power tubes in the phono, preamp an CD player. I'll report the results here. Hopefully, they will make further improvements.
Frank |
^^^ Allan ...
The Black fuses are a significant improvement over the Reds. I had my entire system completed with the Reds when the Blacks hit the market. I now have the system completed with the Blacks. There is no way I would want to go back to the Reds unless I had to use one as a spare. I would suggest that if cost is a factory that you do one fuse at a time, but make it black. :-)
Frank
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Three more Herbie tube dampeners arriving today for the three power tubes. Stay tuned ... |
^^^ Allan .... All I have left is one 5 slo blow and a 3.15 slo blow. Sorry. |
Okay, so I've had the Herbie's tube dampeners on the three power tubes (6550's) for a week now. One in the phono stage, one in the preamp, and finally one in the CD player.
Its more of what was experienced with the dampeners on the preamp signal tubes. Another veil has been lifted ... with the welcomed further improvement in accurate tonal balance. Its all improved from top to bottom including the most natural stand-up acoustic bass I've ever experienced in my system. With each installation of the Herbie tube dampeners, more grain is removed from the system allowing for a clearer picture of the musicians and their instruments. The 3-D relief becomes more pronounced, improving the realism of each performance.
One of my favorite speakers from a tonal balance standpoint is the Harbeth 40.2's. With the addition of the Herbie's tube dampeners in the system, that's the kind of tonal balance I'm getting at this point. Honestly, I knew the Legacy Signature III's were a great speaker, especially when driven in tube gear ... but I had no idea they were THIS freakin' good. Its like listening to a big pair of Harbeth 40.2's except with better deep bass.
Next month ... three more signal tubes in the phono and two more in the amp will get the Herbie's treatment. Stay tuned ...
Frank |
Allan ...
You are entirely welcome. Glad you found the SS dampeners to work well for you. The Rx dampeners have been a real blessing in my system. It really odd how so many of these tweaks are system dependent.
I predict that you are going to love what the Black fuses will do for your amp. As I stated in a much earlier post ... I thought with the ARC-REF-75se, with the KT150 tubes, that I finally found a grain free amp. The amp takes only one fuse. Replacing that fuse removed another layer of smear that I didn't realize was there.
I'd be real curious how you make out with the fuses.
Frank |
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nkonbor ...
As audiophiles we live for those "Wow" moments. It just keeps me wondering with every improvement I make how much more information is hidden way down in those record grooves and digital bytes. |
Hi, oddeophile ...
According to the directions that come along with the Herbies dampeners, they should be placed about a third of the way down the tube. That's what I did, and it worked very well.
Frank
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By the way, talking about "Herbies," have any of you tried the "Black Hole" CD dampening mat? Its the little one that just covers the inner circle of the top of the CD. I've read some good reviews on it.
Frank |
^^^ Guys .... thanks for the tips on placement. I'll give it a shot later today and see what happens. The Herbies dampeners have been a wonderful upgrade to the system ... but we can always use more of the same. *lol*
Frank |
Richard ...
I didn't get around to changing the position of the dampeners today, so nothing to report at this time. I'll give it a go in the morning and report back.
Frank |
I always listen to my system while enjoying the morning coffee. Home roasted coffee, using only organically grown beans on small family owned farms, of course. We audiophiles have other obsessions too, ya know. *lol* Okay, so before this morning’s listening session, I moved all of the Herbies dampeners up to where the "getters" are. The result? More overall clarity in the presentation. Thanks to Richard and geoffkait for the suggestion. Very nice, guys. If anyone reading this is interested in getting into home roasting their coffee, here’s the site to visit: www.sweetmarias.comExcellent service. Excellent coffee from around the world. Yes, its a bother ... but its akin to converting from solid state to tubes. Once there you will never go back. :-) If you want my suggestions on roasting equipment, feel free to ask. Now back to the listening session ... Frank |
^^^ Old school here too. However, over the years in the hobby I've discovered that everything vibrates on a micro level. including vacuum tubes. The vibration smears the sound.
Great advances can be obtained in one's audio system by paying careful attention to these micro-vibrations. The tube dampeners are just one among many ways to treat the micro-vibration beast.
Over the past couple of years I've concentrated on improving the system without buying any more new equipment. The difference between now and two years ago is just astounding.
The next major break-through in our hobby will be in the area of getting micro-arcing in metal to metal electronic connections under control. Believe it or not, they smear the sound in very significant ways.
Frank
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Richard ...
If you want to discuss your chronic pain issues with someone who really understands let me know and I'll PM you my phone number. Sometimes good conversation and handy hints help.
Take care, Bud ...
Frank |
Ohh ... "Little school girl outfits." My, this thread has suddenly taken an interesting turn. *lol* |
