Tube Characterization: 6DJ8, 6922, 7308 Part II


This is a continuation of the thread:
Tube Characterization: 6DJ8, 6922, 7308, CCa, etc

This above thread was dense with information regarding tube selection, classification and characterization but like many threads, branched off into more specific areas of focus. Though I would definitely refer to this original thread as a point of reference, what I would like to do here is condense much of the information specific to it's original intention. The objective evaluation of 6Dj8 family of tubes.

One of the most thoughtful responses and one for which I am most grateful is:
My advice if you are tube rolling is to be careful about documenting what you are doing, and make sure you can return tubes that you buy from NOS/antique dealers! *Above all* remember that you are supposed to be having fun and don't go off the deep end. Its not pretty
To this end I have decided to cool my jets a little and take a more moderate approach.

The questions are:
1) Can a tube within an audio component be evaluated for its sonic qualities or will the associated circuitry be so influential on the sound that such an evaluation would be pointless unless put into a specific context (ie the same preamp)

2) Will a tube retain enough of its sonic signature with specific components or specific circuits to make such an evaluation fruitful?

3) Is there an objective language or terminology that we can use which will make such an evalutaion comprehensible?

Many of the most experienced audiophiles in this forum feel that it can not be done, at least meaningfully. A number of others feel reservedly that it can and a few are of the opinion "let's give it a go". Some just find pleasure in trying out different brands on a casual basis(a very sane point of view imo).

Some contributers feel and for good reason that the manufacturer used certain tubes for good reason and that tube rolling would just be making trade-offs. If you want a different sound, buy a different preamp, cd player, what have you.

Before anyone undertakes such a study they should refer to the existing information contained in "Joe's Tube Lore", and evaluations done by Vintage Tube Sevices, VAC, and Vacuum Tube Valley, especailly issue #7 (thanks to Jab and Rchau). Consider that some components are just more sensitive to tube changes than others. Lastly, be sure that you can return, at least exchange tubes for

One comment by Atmasphere I found particulary interesting was his assertion that:
If you are dealing with the best of the best in all tube types you will find them all very close.
and also adds that the 6SN7 series of tube is iherently better than the 6DJ8 series and to me supports the idea of just changing preamps. By the way Raymond Chowkwanyun of enjoythemusic does a capsule review of this tube type: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0304/6sn7.htm

There is also a strong contingent of contributers that feel nos tubes are inherently better sounding than nns tubes. At the prices some old stock tubes are going for I find it difficult to believe that a modern tube manufacturer can't duplicate or even improve construction methods producing superior tubes and still make a nice profit but that so far does not seem to be the case.

Imin2u, if you are still interested, may I suggest starting with some of those tubes you have that haven't otherwise been reviewed and we can start putting them through their paces. We can move from there to confirming existing findings.

I invite anyone who would like to be a part of this experiment to tell us a little about the sound your favorite 6DJ8, what you use it in and if you'd be willing to run other tubes through your system.
anacrusis

Showing 3 responses by albertporter

Jafox, regarding:
As for the 6922/6DJ8/7308, as much as I like the Mullard 6922 gold pin, the Telefunken 6DJ8 has been phenomenal in every component I have tried. Tonal coherency is more refined over the somewhat edgy Mullard in the treble, and the Tele portrays an awesome piano bloom while retaining the articulation from note to note. This has been consistent with every preamp and amp I have so far tried. No other tube has given me the same results with each product under test. Ironically, the Tele 12ax7 affects components very differently from model to model.

A perfect example where these two tubes can swap performance is the top Aesthetix pieces, the Io and Callisto. The Tele works wonders in the Io phono but sounds compressed and etched in the Callisto. Of course all the other tubes in the Io and Callisto also effect the final outcome, meaning swapping the 6SN7 from Sovtek to RCA, then RCA to Sylvania or (better yet) an RCA 5692, will alter the outcome of the tests of the 6922 and 12AX7 positions.

Another place where performance swaps is the Viva preamp. Stock it comes with Sovtek 6922 which works OK. The Telefunken 6DJ8 works better but literally dies (dead) in less than two months due to circuit design.

Swapping to Mullard 6922 is worse performance than the Telefunken but it will last about three months before dying. Go to Siemens E288 CC and you have sound similar to Telefunken and better than Sovtek with long life.

Still another is the input stage of the Wolcott Presence 220 mono blocks. The Mullard is king there, easily displacing the Telefunken. Problem is with the Wolcott, if either of the Mullards are off specification, the Wolcott starts up, all lights come on and then there is NO sound.

There are dozens of other examples. As I've stated before, tubes are circuit dependant as to how they ultimately perform and how long they operate at equal performance (as installed) before going bad.

The way to determine this is own the same equipment long enough, keep a log on hours and put stickers inside the equipment chassis with test scores from a high quality tester. Go back at 3 months, 6 months and a year and see how each holds specifications.

Tvad, if you want to borrow Telefunken 6DJ8 tubes for testing (no offers for trade) we can probably work a deal for me to ship you some to try. I have 6Dj8 and 6922 in Siemens, Siemens CCA, Telefunken 6Dj8, Telefunken 6922, Mullard white dot 6922, Brimar 6922, Amperex 7308, Amperex CEP 7308, Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8, Amperex 6922, Sovtek 6922, Matsushita 6DJ8 and several others.

If I had to pick ONLY one 6DJ8 tube of all there are and forced to use it in EVERY piece of equipment regardless of design, I too would choose Telefunken 6DJ8. Fortunately we have lots of other brands and can choose what works in each circuit, depending on design.
Tvad, this site has accurate descriptions and good images of most of the audio tubes we're discussing. Karsten is one of my suppliers and is located in Germany.

http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/AudioTubes.htm
I use the ECC88, the 6DJ8 variety with common steel pins (not gold) pins. The E88CC is a true 6922 and I frequently find these gold pin versions (although classier looking) to be harder sounding, grainer and slightly more compressed.

Here is a link to a site in Italy with images of the E88CC Telefunken and the ECC88 Telefunken.

http://spazioinwind.libero.it/themagicsound/_private/le_valv_telefunken_eng.htm

Here's a good shot of the Telefunkens with white bulk pack boxes in background from WiWi in Hong Kong. I just bought Telefunken 6463's and Mullard M8162 (CV-4024) from him.

http://www.wiwitubes.com/pic/tube/TFKecc88.jpg

Hope that helps.