Trying to extract more from my Vandersteen


I've come to the realization that my ideal system is always 2 steps ahead of whatever my current system is. I am only satisfied with whatever updgrade for a few months, before I convince myself that I need to upgrade again. This is as exciting as it is unsettling.

My current system is as follows:
Vandersteen 2CE sig
McCormack DNA-1 deluxe
TAD-150 sig tube preamp
Eastern Electric Minimax tube CDP
Blue circle Power cords
MIT IC's and speaker cables

I had spent the past two years building this current system, and I had been fairly happy with it. I thank this system for introducing me to the world of jazz. Switching to tubes really helped my Vandersteens "sing". I had entertained the thought of replacing the McCormack with a tube amp, such as TAD-60 or other equivalent, but I never did. I was happy with my system and figured it would remain intact for awhile.

Then something had to rain on my happiness or complaceny. Due to a busy work schedule, I was forced to do most of my music listening either in my office through my old NHT and all rotel setup or at home through my Sennheiser headphones. After a couple months of this, I finally had time to do some listening through my main system. It had never been apparent to me before, but all the music coming out of the Vandersteens sounded "veiled". Before, I purchased my vandies, I read and heard all the criticisms regarding this "veiled" or "shrouded" sound. I never felt this was true about my vandersteen's until now.

So instead of making generalizations, I figure this is a good opportunity to "improve" my system. I am still more than happy with the soundstage, midrange clarity, and bass dynamics. Perhaps what I want to improve is higher frequency extension.

All this being said, I welcome all recommendations and comments that need not be limited to the following topics:

tube-rolling...

Pre-amp...
Any recommendations on pre-amps (tube or SS)?
How about a passive unit (Sonic Euphoria, Placette, Mccormack TLC)?

cables...
anyone recommend Purist?

Amp...
Any good integrated's out there?
What do you think about the Eastern Electric Integrated?
How about Krell KAV 400xi? For that matter, how does Krell match with Vandersteens?

Thanks for reading, and I look forward to reading your comments.

Drew
drewyou

Showing 9 responses by drewyou

Thanks for all your insightful responses. So it seems there are 3 general suggestions. I will try to address each of them and provide info for more dialogue.

Changing speakers:

I hadn't given this a thought. I agree, the Vandersteen arguably gives you the best "bang for the buck" if you will. Yes, I would have to spend quite more money to better that, but despite my reservations... I'm saving for an engaement ring, I can budget up to $2000 for new or used speakers. My listening room is roughly 25 x 15ft, and my system can only fit along the longer wall. What are some suggestions? Anyone own Gallo reference 3/3.1, or can anyone comment on them? Are there people out there who switched from a 2CE sig to a 3A sig? What improvements did you hear?

Keeping speakers and re-evaluate/re-calibrate listening perception:

Krisjan and others make an interesting point. It is very possible that my listening perception or preference has changed/skewed due to listening to music through other systems. However, I am also inclined to think that my listening perception has been somewhat improving throughout the past couple years. In the past couple months I felt that my old NHT/Rotel system (my first "real" system) was very listenable, albiet a little lean. The Sennheiser HD650 headphones were driven straight from the phono out from my Eastern Electric CDP. It's sound is wonderfully flat throughout the mid and high FQ, but the bass can be overwhemling at times. Just two years ago my NHT/Rotel system was the best I had heard, well that was until I auditioned the Vandersteen. I hope my listening perception doesn't flip-flop so easily, but perhaps a recalibration is in order. I will keep your comments in mind when I listen through my current system. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

Keeping my current system and making minor tweaks/additions:

Eagleman, thanks for your comments on tube rolling. I could be wrong, but I remember an old post you made regarding "high FQ roll-off" with your system. What changes did you end up making?
I am quite a novice when it comes to room treatment. I would like to learn some more about this. Can anyone direct me to a good thread or website?
I will test out different speaker placement this weekend.
Thanks for the cable suggestions. I'm gonna have to start demoing some new cables before I conclude I must change them.

Wow, I started out with what I thought were alot of qustions, but now I have even more. Thanks for all the comments... keep them coming.
Thanks for all your input guys. I'm gonna first try testing various speaker positions, toe-in/out, vertical angle and such, and see what improvements I can get for free.

What do you think would have more impact? Switching IC's or speaker cables?
UPDATE

So initially I started out by playing around with speaker placement, including toe-in and tilt and such. Toe-ing increased a bit of brightness and proper tilting also helped.

I set up my second system in the same room and interchanged components. I also decided that comparing headphone sound to the sound from my main system was pointless as it was impossible to make objective analyses between the two.

I maxed out the midrange and treble controls on the back of the speakers and noticed that it sounded better than when they were at 0db. Perhaps others have experienced the same? I'm thinking this result varies from room-to-room.

After exhausting all my "free" options (assuming time isn't money), I wasn't still satisfied with my system. Yes, improvements were made, but still I sensed a bit of a veil. Yes, the ugly word reveals its ugly head again.

So, I went out and tested different IC cables. The local hifi store had Tara Labs (forgot the model, $200 range). I demo'ed them and returned them the next day. I borrowed some Pursit Musaeus and Audioquest from a buddy of mine. IMO the AQ sounded worse, but the PAD cables were an improvement, especially with the imaging. Then I came upon a great deal for Kimber silver streaks. Wow, what a difference. High FQ resolution was improved, although the bass was a tad thinner.

Anyways, I'm looking to change my speaker cables... still using the MIT2 bi-wire at this moment. I was thinking two separate runs to each of the vandies (bi-wiring) may be an improvement. My McCormack does have two binding posts for each channel. I can play around with that a bit.

So continues my quest to extract more from my vandersteens.
I replaced the MIT 2 biwires with Kimber 8TC (shotgunned and biwired). The sound improved tremendously. In comparison the MIT's were in fact darker sounding, perhaps contributing to the "veiled" sound. The Kimber really opened up the music. Hi-end extention was greatly improved, and the bass tigthend up as well. These cables are definitely more forward-sounding for lack of a better description.

I moved my system to the short wall. The room is approx. 25X15. I also reset the tweeter and woofer contours back down to 0db on the vandersteens. To my ears this setting seems to best complement my system with the room.

So after 6 months of pondering, researching, listening, and necessary (financially affordable) adjustments I am now pretty happy with my system. The Vandy's can sound "veiled", but I think after my little journey here in the past few months, I realized that with the right setup and proper matching, they can be made to reproduce wonderfully clear and dynamic music.

Now I am thinking to...
add a 2WQ subwoofer to my system, maybe in a stereo setup. Woundn't that be nice...
I have both shotgunned biwires connected to the Cardas posts. I tired putting both on the barrier strip, and although the sound seems fine, I was worried about not having a secure fit with the screws. One thing I experienced was that putting both hi and low connections on either the Cardas posts or the barrier strip was better than separating out to each.
Cityside,
I added a single 2Wq to my system, and it definitely enchanced the mids and highs, while providing bass I had never heard before in my system. I am thinking of adding another to my system.
Update: My system was out of commission for the past 6 months, due to the left channel going out in my McCormack amp. After some discussion with the folks out at SMcAudio, I decided to have my amp fixed there and upgraded to "Silver" (similar to the older Rev B upgrades).

Oh man, what a difference the upgrade made to my system. EVERYTHING improved. Clarity, soundstaging, bass response/tightness... let's just say I am now a very happy owner of a decent reasonably affordable stereo system. Now I wonder what could have been if I had taken the Gold or Platinum upgrade, but being recently married, my budget was capped.

Another issue I've been dealing with is room size as I have moved to a new place, and my dedicated listening room is approx 13 x 13. After some ordeal, I ended up setting up my system diagonally. This seemed to be a great improvement over setting up along one of the walls. 2wq sub placement was difficult indeed. I pretty much slid the sub above every square foot of the room to find the best performance. I ended up placing it in a corner along the foundation wall of the house.

I'm looking to get into room treatment... anyone have any suggestions?
Soundbit,
The last thing, component-wise that I changed/upgraded when I first got into this hobby was my source component (in my case, a CD-player). I thought, "a CD player is a CD player, can they really be all that different from one another?"

All I can tell you is that, it definitely does make a difference, IMO as much as an amp or preamp. Although the rest of my system has remained generally the same for the past few years, a few different CD players have come and gone in my system. The ones that I've tried are Rotel rcd-02, Rotel 990, Shanling, older Rega Jupiter, and now the Eastern Electric.

Go out and see what's out there. You'll be surprised and hopefully happy with what you hear.
UPDATE:

By posting here so many years later, I hope I am not breaking any forum rules around resurrecting old threads. Perhaps it may be better to post as a new thread...

It’s not anything special for me to say that much has happened in my life since my last post in 2008; however, one thing that has virtually remained the same is my system!

Without getting into much detail, since early 2010 until this summer, my system has pretty much been in storage. I remember during those couple years before 2010, I was extremely satisfied with my system. I think the only additional tweaks I made were replacing my ICs with Kimber Silver Streaks and settling with Mullard 4024 tubes in my TAD-150 sigs*, both of which brought incrementally significant improvements to my system. The next thing on my list, at that time, was a new turntable. (I was sad to learn of Paul Grzybek’s* passing and to hear Eastern Electronics is no more)

Fast forward to 2020, I found myself spending significantly more time at home and with the need to set up a "home office". This was my cue to bring out the system. Unpacking my system felt a bit like opening up a personal time-capsule, stirring up old memories and bringing back latent knowledge.

This room is the smallest (11 x 11 x 9) I’ve had to work with. I started with diagonal placement, as I did with my room from 2008, but the standard straight wall placement just sounded better, especially for low freq. I suspect a lot of this has to do with the placement of windows in my room. After some research, I added simple first reflection treatments to the side walls, ceiling, and behind the speakers. These made significant improvements to clarity and especially to the sound stage. I am a novice in room treatment, but I am eager to learn more.

A significant change to my system has been the recent addition of a Lumin D2 unit (streamer / DAC) with Sbooster PS. Adding this unit has been the single most important change that has re-ignited my fire for this hobby. Yes, the unit is great, but it’s what it has enabled that brings the biggest value for me. The 80’s-2000’s marked a period of my life full of exploring and discovering new music. This is what led me to the audiophile world (I’m sure this is true for many of you). Unfortunately, the day I packed up my equipment in 2010, also marked the day I stopped listening to new music. With the streamer, I listen to new music everyday, which in turn has let me appreciate my system even more.

To summarize my thoughts over the past 14 years, the following is what has so far helped me on my journey to extract more from my Vandersteens (In order of magnitude of impact):

  1. Supplementing the speakers - adding sub and cross-over
  2. Placement & sound treatment - getting to "know" my speakers, experimenting with positioning, and treating first node reflection points
  3. Improving source component & content - easy access to hi-res content has been a blessing, Lumin D2 is a wonderful little unit
  4. Finding tubes that fit your taste - tubes make a difference, but I didn’t truly know until I started "rolling" them first hand
  5. Speaker cables and ICs - finding my "value" sweet spot is key here (perceived improvement to system vs. how much I am willing to pay)
-----------------------------------------

My Vandersteen 2CE Signatures sound better than they ever have. I’ve owned them for close to 18 years now. This being said... my quest to extract more from my Vandersteens has been re-booted. As always, I welcome any suggestions or comments.

I am currently entertaining these ideas:

  • Moving up in the Vandersteen product line (Treo, Quatro)
  • Considering replacement speakers that match small rooms and are good for near-field listening
  • Additional SMc Audio upgrades to my DNA-1 Deluxe Silver
  • Continue tube rolling for TAD-150 Sig
  • Replacing my TAD-150 Sig