TRL Dude Dilemna


Based on all the high praise for the TRL Dude preamp here and other sites, I took a chance and bought one from a local A-goner to see if it could displace an Air Tight ATC-2 preamp currently in my system. The two amps I currently use are a McIntosh MC-402 and Viva 845 SET Monos. It turns out that the Dude is not compatible with either amps due to an impedance mismatch. So I only got to hear the Dude in a compromised performance mode.
I was not quite wanting to give up on the Dude yet given everyone else's enthusiasm about its performance. I am considering the Samson monos as a natural match. I can convince myself that the Samson's could be better than the MC402..My real issue is that I would have to give up the Vivas. Not sure I can make the leap that a solid state amp will satisfy me as much as those SET Vivas. Then there is the leap of faith that I cannot hear the Samsons with purchasing them....
Has anyone replaced their SET amp with Samsons and remained satisfied with the decision? My speakers are the Green Mountain Audio Continuum 3 which are about 90db efficient with an impedance 6.5 Ohms, +/- 0.75 Ohms 150Hz to 20kHz. Thanks for your input..
tellefsen

Showing 21 responses by agear

Bill, have you heard Paul's tube amps? Comparisons to the Aesthetix stuff?
Tellefsen, put Dueland cast caps in your Dude. Lights out good. Grannyring spearheaded this idea and he is oh so right......
very interesting.

Samsons or Paul's newest tube amp. There are two guys in Dallas with Dudes and Paul's big tube amps. You should give them a shout: Gallant_diva (system Texas Heat) and Tuongsy.
Tellefsen, how does you speaker behave with the two different amps? And what if anything is missing with the Airtight in the chain?

My speakers are a relatively similar load to yours, and even the more high powered SETs did not have the same "swing" as the Samsons. And this was not due to an input impedance issue as the Kora input impedance was around 81k
Tellefsen, its a nice dilemma to have. I have heard your speakers in the distant past, and from sonic memory, they were fairly neutral. If your sonic bias is already titled towards tubes, a switch to SS may not be wise. Another phile who owns my speakers (Fried Reference) also owns the Viva monos along with a Viva pre-amp and loves them to death. I myself have fiddled with SET amplification (Kora Galaxy, 50W) with the Dude. As expected, it did some things better than the Samsons (in my system), including texture, and sound staging, but the Samsons are so dynamic and bristle with lifelike energy that they made the Kora sound pretty and polite...almost dead.

I think the obvious solution (stated above by Jtwrace) is to get Paul's new GT160s. You will bet the best of both worlds....
Based on his speakers, TRL tube amplification would be my choice. As for accuracy, that is a loaded term, and one that is not always synonymous with SETs. This is honestly a matter of taste at this point. Audio cooking....ciao.
Charles, I agree. The system matching game is where real skill (and time) is needed. That is what makes the Coincident/Audionote/Shindo whole system approach so appealing.

As I stated above, I know someone who owns my speakers and adores the Viva gear.

I agree Doug. Have Paul adjust the Dude's output impedance!
Wilsynet, good point. Duh.

I don't know the sonic pros and cons of that approach. Good question for Paul.
interesting but tangential data. Audiogon has become the land of bunny trails and subconscious agendas....
And when you say the Vivas lack control, do you mean the bass is a little loose or bloated?

Another solution would be to have 2 dedicated systems...and the AV side would not, IMO, need to be audiophile grade....something like Onkyo.
I think you guys are missing the larger point here (one that is actually pertinent to the OP and cannot be sidestepped by bland philosopical posturing): SS amplification can and does achieve the "purity" and "thereness" of a SET. Gary/Glory has experienced it (Art Audio>Audionote>Atmasphere>Tenor>ASR). I have. SS (I include tube hybrids) amps now exist which produce little to no mechanical edge, no hi frequency fizz, 3D soundstaging and midrange palpability. There is lots to choose from depending on your budget, including Symphonic, Burmester, ASR, Ypsilon, Tenor, TRL, Neodio, Dhartzeel, Sovereign, just to name a few.

Grannyring, I presume this has been your experience as well....
"That "purity" and "thereness" you mention is very hard for most other types(non SET) of amplifiers to achieve, at lease when compared to the better built SETs."

Charles, you make a statement like that and provide directional counsel to Tellefsen, and then revert to sonic relativism. What SS amps have you heard in your own system in recent history? Audio shows are relatively worthless in educating our sensibilities.

I have spent the last three months doing extensive A+B testing of three different amps, including a SET, and have come to my own conclusions which I will share at a later date in a more appropriate setting.

Tellefsen (Norwegian I presume), you obviously have an itch. Let us know where is takes you.
Tellefsen, that is what I suspected. It's too bad you have the impedance mismatch with the Dude since it imparts enormous drive and energy and would most likely improve the Vivas performance on rock and large scale music. Another obvious and logical solution would be to try a more efficient set of speakers (but that is a pain). That being said, I have heard SET systems falter with rock and large scale orchestral music even with 16 ohm 101 dB speakers. Yet another solution would be to have two systems. I am jealous of guys who are able to do that.

Just to clear the air, I have to state emphatically that I am not anti-set. It is not a technology that audio evolution is leaving behind. Some of my favorite rooms at Axpona in Atlanta were set-driven. I get it and I like it.

I think a lot of threads decompensate due to semantic issues. We talk by or around one another since things are poorly defined. So....when someone says an amplifier has a "purity and thereness" that is hard to match, what exactly does that mean? I have heard philes talk about their OTLS, SETs and SS amps that way. I think I know what that means but I want others to answer to see if we are on the same page.
Charles, I think we are all a little loose with our language. Add to that the trite nature of electronic mediums, and we inherit the whirlwind so to speak.

Your elaboration of purity and thereness is good. A vivid palpability or "presence" minus mechanical artifacts is a solid foundation. For me, that magical presence also involves ambient energy. A lot of systems I have heard, whether SET, OTL, push pull tube, or SS, fail in that area. You have the soundstage clearly delineated with good depth, clear, 3D images, and yet the whole thing is limpid and static. Pretty sounding hifi.

I believe ambient energy is linked to dynamics. If a system is not capable of lifelike dynamics, the absence of any mechanical edge is irrelevant. As Maril555 pointed out in a Coincident Frankenstein amp thread, SPLs in a concert hall are on average 85 dB with peaks at 100 dB. If an amp/speaker inteface cannot pull that off, its a mismatch. This is purely a matter of physics and not personal taste.

Another ripple to add to the equation is power. Clean power and SOTA power conditioning adds all the things we have been talking about here regardless of amplification type. I was involved in an after hours demo of Miguel Alvarez's Tripoint Orion in a SS system at the recent Axpona. It utterly transformed the sound, and provided the most palpable images I heard there. So, the thing that is most often forgotten is somehow the most important. I have had similar experiences with Dale Pitcher's new Theorem conditioner. Without it, the system sounds broken regardless of what's upstream (I am not a dealer for either company).

As for the TRL Dude/Samson cocktail, it does not sound SET-like in the traditional sense. Due to the Samson's transparency, the speaker and source are uber important. Paul and Brian are big on master tape, and I understand why.

In terms of pure logic, Tellefsen needs to demo other speakers. I know that is painful, but if you like what the Viva does, it makes sense.
Ask Paul at TRL. I know there are guys in your area who own his big tube gear....
Dude fan mail aside, the OP's central issue is how to find the right amp (with SET-like attributes) that will mate with the Dude. Tellefsen, what about the Dude's performance seemed subpar?

Tthean has used the Dude with a 8W SET and horns and was pleased with the results, but the impedance specs are???

Tuongsy, aren't you (and Gallantdiva) in Dallas like Tellefsen? He needs to hear the Dude with TRL tube amps. That will aid his decision-making regarding the Dude....