Triode vs. Pentode

Newbee, it's probably just us seeing these goofy terms in different ways. I'll try my best to describe MY gibberish.

"Beautiful" is a sparkly (I know, no better) sound, where there is a lot of detail and air present, and everything takes on a shimmering tone. I can most easily equate this to brass and cymbals. They will have a tremendous amount of life to them, especially, in the decay of the note.

Smooth, means liquid and relaxed to me. Not necessarily going along with a loss of detail, but it often does. Now that I am typing this, I realize that it may well be the opposite of the shimmer I spoke of when I desribed beautiful above.

Triodes DEFINITELY have the shimmer going on for me, they have less of the "smooth" going on, but I in no way mean to say they are harsh or fatiguing, because they sound nothing of the sort. And, I don't want to say that pentode is smooth, as it is not more smooth, but that "shimmer" dissipates to a large degree. I know I probably sound like I am contradicting myself, but like that Supreme Court justice who knew pornography when he saw it...

Dynamic, to my own warped mind/ears is the ability to present the punch, the true stop/start of the musical event, and the yin and yang of the blackness of silence contrasted with the heat of the note's zenith.

Smooth can be dynamic, as exhibited by my new AtmaSphere amps, which are much more smooth, yet more dynamic than the older revision I also have. I A/Bd both on Saturday during the day and the evening, and the newer ones had great slam in the lower frequencies and were tremendously dynamic. Detail and clarity was outstanding. The older ones appeared more detailed, but a lot of listening more or less showed me that I was mistaking their forwardness for showing more detail and clarity - it was not so.

Neither, despite both being Class A triode amps, exhibits the "beautiful" sound that I was describing of triodes, which was a reflection of my Granite tube monos and other tube amps that I have been around which offered the ability to run either way. Obviously, despite these comments, I am still a tremendous fan of the Atmas, as in so many ways, I think they are the finest sounding amps made. It's more that a lot of tube amps can have a whole lot of sweetness, and it may or may not be always warranted.

Sweetness is another word that REALLY describes triode for me. Going to pentode seems to remove that sweetness, and adds a good measure of punch. Which do I prefer, definitely triode - presuming the speakers don't need more juice. In my own Granites, matched with my Coincidents, when running KT88s, I go for triode. With EL34, I need pentode, as triode doesn't pack enough wallop for me. Overall, KT88 in triode sounds best for me with these amps.

Tvad, you certainly have done a yeoman's job in assembling the system. While everything looks great on paper, I would first look into running CD direct, and secondarily, the speakers. As I said, I faced my own problem of this sort for a good, long time. At one point, two interconnects that I previously heard tremendous differences in showed none at all! It was probably just luck that I was able to work through it, but now I can hear quite meaningful differences in triode/pentode, cabling, CD players, etc.

That's why they make vanilla AND chocolate!

Some people are more concerned with test tones, some prefer music - to each, his own...

Springbok10, one consideration I would like to raise for the ability to convert an amp from ultralinear to triode is the reduction in power. While I went out of my way to say I wasn't worried about it, for a lot of amps, it would be an issue.

And, to contradict myself, although my Granites CLEARLY sound best in triode, the Jadis you are now in ownership of, and running in ultralinear mode, beats the Granites handily in every area outside of power. Forget about all of the adjectives I used when I spoke of triode and pentode, the Jadis powering my Coincidents simply played the music as perfectly as I have been lucky enough to hear. And, in the end, that is all I really care about.

Triode should be a more beautiful, open, clear, and detailed sound. The downside is that you will have less oomph in the sound. Even with efficient speakers, such as my Coincidents, the difference power makes is immediately noticeable.

When you listen in pentode, you'll have a lot more power (twice as much), and it will be a more straight ahead, rocking sound.

I disagree with triode being a smoother sound. But, it is a different sound. Again, the keyword is "beautiful", as that is what I equate triode with.

What does the rest of your system consist of, you should be able to hear the differences distinctly. But, I do believe it is common for us to have something going on in our systems where we are unable to hear differences that should be obvious. I was in this same situation for a while in my own system, finally breaking out of it late this spring. CD players, preamps, and cabling had no effect on the sound. One of the solutions was to ditch the preamp altogether, it was imposing its signature on the sound to the point where nothing else mattered.

Nice post, Zaikesman!

Over the Christmas holidays, I spent A LOT of time listening to my Granite mono amplifiers, with my Coincident speakers. One thing I did focus on were the differences in triode versus pentode sound. A lot of the conclusions I came up with may fly in the face of what is the conventional wisdom, but nevertheless here I go...

Pentode DOES produce more power. If you are after watts, or have speakers that need the extra ooomph, pentode is truly for you. You'll get more volume. NO question.

However, as is often pointed out, doubling power does not produce as much distance in terms of volume as most would think. Switching down to triode, I needed to push the level controls up about 15% to get the same volume at my listening chair. However, for that very small price to pay, EVERYTHING improved sonically. At least, to my tastes.

Strangely enough, the bass response was much more to my liking. Triode injected into the midbass that extra muscle (not plumpness or lack of control) that many feel is THE area that determines whether the sound is warm or cold. The richness was incredible. It was the blood and guts that made music more real.

Dynamics were slamming. This was incredibly surprising to me. Although the volume measured the same, subjectively, listeners swore it was a good bit louder.

Midrange and treble were of course where most would expect triode to walk away from pentode, and there were no surprises there. Soundstaging, and that "sparkle" that I have spoken of in the past are present in triode in spades. It's that beautiful, sweet tone that makes music so wonderful.

Everyone can obviously do as they please, but for me, I'll be listening in triode.

Another great post, Zaikesman.

One thing that I have long considered when people say "volume", is that we normally measure this in a more static manner than may well be necessary. Rather, I am saying, these SPL meters are probably taking a snapshot of the volume, with perhaps one frequency weighing most heavily. This might be fine for a test tone.

But, as I ALWAYS say, measurements often continue to have little correlation with music or sonics because both are dynamic. I don't listen to, nor do I have a desire, a 1KHz tone going through an 8 ohm resistor(does it even make a sound?), and I would guess most audiophiles don't either. We listen to music; dynamic, unpredictable, ever changing.

Also, one thing I want to point out is that the Granites, running KT88s in triode into the Coincidents are definitely not near the clipping, or even compression point. It is a pretty benign load there.

No, triode definitely has more of the blood and guts of the music playing in my particular setup. This might be something apparent in my system, and the opposite in other people's. But, it is giving me further insight into what a lot of people talk about when they speak of their SET amps.

Over the past few months, I have been looking into a lot of things in my own systems, and am finding my opinions are flying in the face of conventional wisdom. Hopefully, in these threads I will be able to share them as time goes forward. I am certain that many things I will say will spark a tremendous amount of controversy, but nevertheless, this is what I am hearing.