Tri-Planar Vll "SE Upgrade"

Speaking about Triplanar weakness. My Triplanar VII ''refused'' to

track anything above 50 microns on my test record. Even carts which

easilly got 70 microns right (aka ''pure'') on my FR-64s were not

able to track more than 50 microns with the Triplanar. I know that

''induction'' from one experiment does not count as proof but

anybody can repeat the same  experiment and see for himself.

Addition, I assume that Raul owns just one test record which

contains those Tchaikovsky's cannon shots ? If an cart/tonearm

combo is not able to track them then such combo's are dismissed.

But to track those cannons at least 70 microns tracking capability

is needed. That is why he recommends high compliance carts

of even the MC ''nature''. Say the Ortofon MC 2000 which can

do this jobe but is, alas, impossible to use because of its output:

0,05mV (grin).

Dear cleeds, I bought the Triplanar VII new in the USA and paid

500 euro import duty. As I understand 50 microns (horizontal and

vertical) should be sufficient for a ''normal record''. BTW I own

some MC's with pretty low compliance which are also not able

to track more than 50 micron on tracking ability test records.

But I was surprised that my FR-64 which is at least twice as heavy

can track 70-80 microns . However nobody made the same

experiment in order to check my finding but persist in the well

known ''denial strategy''. I stated that my sample was not able

to track more than 50 micron with any of my MC carts and asked

others to try the same experiment . Anybody who owns test

records with tracking capabilty test can do this in 5 minutes time.

If the results are different  than my then I will know that my

sample is possible defective.

Dear cleeds, ''Your arm sounds defective'' is a curious statement.

I am not aware that you listened to my arm. But if you performed

tracking ability test and your Triplanar got more than 50 microns

''pure'' I will need to agree that my Triplanar is defective.

Elinor, ''any record'' should imply also ''test records''. But test

records with ''tracking capability'' are made in order to show by

which value (aka ''microns'') the arm /cart combo will start to

mistrack. It is very curious that nobody is willing to try the same

experiment which is very simple to repeat. Fear?

Dear cleeds, This is called ''testimonium paupertatis''  in old

good latin. You don't even own the Triplanar but you pretend

to know better than those who know what they are talking about.

I assume that this is the influence of the Mexican. In empirical

science no proof would be even considered without provision of

repertory and controlable experiments. So I am  still waiting for

someone who checked my statement not by speculation but by

testing his Triplanar with tracking ability test. What is curious is

the fact that I need to wait so long.

Elinor, By each cart manufacturer provide specifications among

which recommended VTF and tracking ability expressed in microns.

Say my Benz LP S claims 80 microns by 2g. My Ortofon Windfeld

even 100 microns with  2,6g. On the other side my Ikeda 9 c does

not claim anything but can't track more than 50 microns. As I wrote

in my previous post 50 microns is sufficient for ''normal records''.

But there are records which  are more demanding like those

Tchaikovski's cannon shots. Raul use this record to judge carts.

The most cart/tonearms combos will skip the third shot. The same

will happen with cart/tonearm combos by 60 microns if the combo

is not able to track more than 50 microns. I see that nobody care

to test his own combos but trust their hearing or intuition. Well I

check all my (new) carts with my test records first. That is before

listening to them. I was not able to confirm Windfeld but well

LPS . To be more specific I never got 100 microns ''pure'' nor

90 microns but well 80 microns with 2 g by LPS. I do those

tests with my FR-64 because this arm has removable headshell

such that changing carts is much more easy then by Triplanar

and other tonearms with fast headshells. So I was very much

surprised when my Triplanar ''refused'' to track 60 microns and

skipped the groove. This btw does no imply that the arm is defective

because there are many low complience carts wich can't track

more than 50 microns. But if whatever cart can track, say 70

microns , with my FR-64 but the same cart is not able to track

70 microns on my Triplanar I was curious to know why. That is

why I posted my specific question. To my surprise nobody

try the same experiment but invented all kinds of answers which

are irrelevant for my question.

Atmasphre, I don't belive that I need lessons about the use of

quantifiers. I addressed the participants in this thread so my quantor 

''nobody'' does not include the whole universe but only members who

reacted to my post. You are also included because you also deed

not answer my question. My question was if the Triplanar can track

more then 50 microns on tracking ability test records. Among your

4000 records there should be some of those? In my answer to

pbnaudio I mentioned the test records which I used. BTW I deed

not say a single word about my Triplanar sound.  I only stated to

be surprised that MY Triplanar ''refused'' to track ''anything''

(aka ''any of my carts'') above 50 microns. So carts which can

track 80 microns with my FR-64 skiped out the groove by 60

microns on the Triplanar. My advice to you is to read careful

what other have written and not put your own inventions instead.

Well nobody (in this thread atmasphere) seem to think that those

tracking ability test are of any importance. But some of the members

concluded  that my Triplanar is defective. Why? Because my sample

 is not able to track more than 50 microns? But I own  MC carts

which also can't track more than 50 microns. However nobody (in

general atmasphere) would proclaim such carts as defective. 

Then, regarding manufacturers , why should they publish the tracking

ability values in their specs if those are of no importance at all?

rfogel8, Thanks for your advice but I would also need to ''trade in''

40 of my MC carts, 30 MM carts and my Kuzma Stabi Reference

in order to satisfy your advice. You started this thread with your

question about Triplanar. My question is also about Triplanar.

Your statement: ''this thread sure got weird'' can only mean that

you don't like my question and the  possible implication. ''Possible''

because my statement is about my own sample and does as

such not imply that other samples also can't track more than 50

microns. But if this is also the case with other samples ???

Syntax is the only member who questioned Triplanar's construction

in the other Triplanar thread. According to him the problem with

Triplanar is its ''energy transfer''. Herb Papier was a watchmaker

and not a mechanical engineer. So it may be the case that he deed

not even thought about ''energy transfer'' as a relevant design

issue. That my Triplanar skips the groove by 60 microns may be

connected with this ''energy transfer'' but also may mean that

my sample is a single exception and that all other samples can

track 100 microns if the used cart also can.

That you don't like my contribution does not imply that my

question is irrelevant. Also the fact that most participants in

this thread don't own or don't use any test records says something

about them and not about the records themself. Every cart producer

use test records for at least the measuring of the output as well

the tracking capability of their carts. Interesting to know that our

amateur members know better.

brf, ''a problem which I feel does not exit''. Well existance is

not as easy as you think. The most physicist may have believed

that Higgs particle does exist but we in Europe spend huge

amount of money to prove that this particle realy exist. What you

feel is irrelevant for my question. You are entitled to say: ''I don't

care about your question'' but you are not entitled to state that

there is no tracking issue because you feel this way. What kind

of argument is this; ''oratio pro domo?''

 For such statement you would need to repeit my experiment and

if your result is different you can then say: the issue does not exist

because I checked with test records made for this purpose.

As I mentiond before Benz LP S claims  80 microns by VTF of

2 g. while Windfeld claim 100 microns by 2,6 g. Do you think that

such claims are based on feelings?

pbnaudio, At last someone who is willing to check my finding.

BTW this ''Schallplatte 2'' is my ''old companion'' for years. I

even use the anti-skate test in order to get some impression about

the ''inside force'' . One can't get those 80 or 90 microns values

without  increaising of the anti-skate force . The right channel

start with distortion first and need compensation with anti-skate.

The German expression is ''Mu'' which means the same as micron.

I really hope that you can refute my finding. Then I can sell my

Triplanar without sense of guilt (grin).

atmasphere, ''it also easily tracks the church Windows LP which

has groove modulation well in excess of 60 microns.'' Interesting

finding for someone who does not own a single test record and

also does not believe in test records.

Folkfreak, before sending my  sample for repair I would like to

know if my Triplanar is defective. But if other samples also skep

the groove by 60 microns why should I?

Anyway our member  pbnaudio owns the same test record so

no feelings, imagination, defence of the beloved one, excuses,

assumptions ,etc.,etc., will be needed any more regarding the

tracking ability of the Triplanar.  Or so I hope. 

The story about the ''strawman''. The German have this curious

saying: ''there is nothing more simple than to refute a philosopher;

one only need to read some other''. The case is that  philosopher

produce a strawman from their opponents and then beat him to

death.

The ''things'' which can be true or false are statements (propositions,

sentences, etc). But even atmasphere who give me the lessons

about quantifiers stated : ''I don't believe you''. He deed not quote

any of my statements in particular so, obviously , I am a person

who has the property of being always wrong. This would include all

statements which I ever made.

The other participants in this thread also forget to quote any of

my statement but assumed that my Triplanar is defective ?

Why? I assume because my sample can't track anything above

50 microns. However I wrote that 50 micron is sufficient for ''normal

records'' but that I was surprised that my sample was not able to

track more than 50 microns. This however does not imply that

my Triplanar is defective. If other samples also skip out the groove

by 60 microns this should mean that Triplanar has this  ''property''

in general. There are low complience carts which can't track more

than 50 microns by their design but  nobody would  qualify them

as defective. No tonarm whatever can get 60 microns out of

such a cart. My FR-64 was not able to track 90 microns by any

cart even the Windefeld which claim 100 microns.

So what other deed is ascribing  to me things which I never stated

which is the same as producing a strawman.

Hi ivanj, I left this forum because of censorship. Four of my posts

in this thread are removed without any explantion. I am not aware

that I ever insulted any member. I try to use arguments instead of

ascriping attributes to persons. As I mentioned before the ''things''

that can be true or false are statements and not persons. It make no

sense to say that a person is true or false. You can see in this thread

that I am questioned as person and not my statements. This explains

my metaphor about strawman. The other is ''shooting at messenger''.

This was a prerogative of kings but at present any novice feels

entitled to shoot at persons who say something that they not like.

You obviously own some test records so you should know how

easy is to refute my statement about tracking ability of Triplanar.

My statement was made about my own Triplanar  . This statement

does in no way imply enything about other Triplanars. But nobody

in this thread even try to refute my statment by repetition of the

same experiment. Instead they questioned my integrity , even

questioned if I own any Triplanar, then questioned my capability to

adjust whatever tonearm ,etc., etc. Well I am in this hobby for more

than 40 years and member of this forum since 2007.

The anti-skate is very difficult problem for pivoted tonearms. The

problem is the different force by different record radius as well

the different stylus shapes. Curiously this tracking ability test which

nobody seems to need or use can illuminate the working of anti-

skate. The arm/cart combo start to mistrack by certain microns

values. It start by the right channel. If,say, the right channel start

to ''buzz'' by 60 microns by increasing the anti-skate force this

can be corrected such that 60 microns will  sound ''pure''.

Now regarding Ikedas carts. My champion is FR-7fz. Next to the

fz is the Ikeda 9 the cantileverless kind. I don't believe that this

cart does not need anti-skate but this cart can't track more then

50 microns on any record. So this cart is very critical in regard to

records condition. But its dynamics can only be compared with

Deccas.

Well I left this forum but I need to react to atmasphere acusation that

I ''made up the (whole) story''. I can start with his conclusion(s) which

assume some premise. But he traw three conclusions which are

difficult to reconcile which each other as conjunctions. So either

something is wrong with his premisse or with his logic. However

let start with his premisses: ''Folks, just you know, 50 microns is

about the same as 2mils... (which) is standard level '' etc,.

But Nandric already stated that 50 microns are sufficient for ''normal

records'' (aka ''standard level'') and also that his Triplanar can track

50 microns but skips out the groove by 60 microns. Nandric who

has no idea how to adjust his Triplanar was somehow able to

adjust his FR-64 (also his Reed 3P) such that he got even 80

microns from his Benz LPS. Nandric was surprised with this result

and asked other members if their Triplanar's also can't track 60

microns. To his big surprise nobody answered this question because

nobody either  own's any test record or because they deed

not care for such experimente or trial. Even our electonic genius

atmasphere does not own any test records among his 4000 records.

 He was obviously also not able to lend one with tracking ability

test  from his friends and perform the same test which would take

about 5 minutes time. Instead he produced an whole technical

story which only few can understad. But this was my request. I

stated nothing about other Triplanars so I don't understand what

the fuss is about. Well if my Triplanar can track 20,30,40 and 50

microns why should my sample be defective? As I also mentioned

I own some low complience carts which can't track more than 50

microns . In my former post I mentioned my Ikeda 9 as example.

But I also mentioned my LPS and Windfeld which can track even

more than my ''magical 70 micron''. But can atmasphere say

where I made this statement about ''magical 70 microns''?

I think that my answer to his ''made up stories'' about Nandric

is suficient. I only repeated his own (technical) statements.