I basically agree with Trelja's stance. Since we all SHOULD know that the acoustics are less than spectacular, one HAS to read between the lines of any description of gear. This is NO different than reading a review in a magazine. Check out a various amount of opinions and chances are, some will differ and some will confirm. Either way, each person is simply presenting their thoughts and experiences with each product or system.
Having said that, i personally find it hard to "condemn" a system at a show unless you give it a couple different chances. As a case in point, my brother and i heard one system at a show in Chicago that sounded phenomenal. I took one of my friends to listen to it the next day of the show. I was utterly embarressed to say the least. The system sounded ABSOLUTELY horrid. I'm talking nails on chalkboard type of horrid. While it might have been the one recording that was on, we literally had to clear out to save our hearing. While i KNEW that the system was capable of producing some very good sounds, i would have thought "utter junk" if i had only listened that one time.
The bottom line is this: Don't be hasty to form opinions. Some stuff takes time to figure out exactly what's going on. Sean
> |
Thanks for the message Leafs. It is much appreciated, especially coming from you. I promise that whenever I submit something on Audiogon it will by my honest, heartfelt, personal opinion. With all of us maintaining this philosophy, we are ensured the broadest, deepest, most accurate audio coverage around. People of every background, taste, and experience offering up what we honestly see, feel, and most of all hear. Regarding the show in New York, I had a great time, and certainly will return. I heard good sound, and bad. Personally, if it was my company presenting at the show, I would do my darndest to make sure we presented ourselves in a flattering manner. Going to whatever extent required. Even constructing a mock up of the room we would be in, if necessary. Then, go about making sure everything was as good as could we could make things. Otherwise, why be a part of the whole thing? The downside is way too risky. Take for example Talon. A pretty new company, with probably not a lot of show experience. A product which has caused a lot of debate throughout the audiophile community. Polarizing people into those that love it, and those that hate it. From the surface, there seems to be a lot to admire about the speaker. The design is beautiful, the fit and finish excellent, the marketing strategy smart. All that remains in a potential customer's mind is the sound. The premier goal of a company like that should be to turn as many people on at the show as they possibly can. To put their best sonic foot forward. From what I had heard through the crowd and read in this thread, they instead turned as many people off as they possibly could. The ramifications of which could be enormous. I went there most wanting to check out the combination of horn speakers with SET amplification. Next, I wanted to hear a few other brands. Including Talon. To form my own opinion. I spent a good amount of time in the room. Sadly, I came away with extremely negative feelings about the product. I am not completely sure about the drivers, but my impression was that they did not seem to be of the type normally encountered in an audiophile speaker. I have dabbled in the speakerbuilding hobby long enough to recognize many of the drivers(and brands) used in the industry. These, particularly the woofers, were not recognizable. No matter, sound is far more important to me. And, it was that that I was most disappointed with. Sean's detailed report of the speaker's measurements were a perfect mirror of what I heard(maybe all those years in the speaker building hobby did teach me something). I concede that the speaker may not have been broken-in(shame on the company if that is the case), or that the room was poor. My biggest concern is that the problems I encountered with the speaker were exactly the same as that type of setting would ameliorate. I will however, give the speakers another chance. I am planning to give them another audition. An opportunity for them to change my opinion. As for next year, I plan on submitting another show report. My feeling is that we should all offer up what our impressions were. |
Great job Trelja,dont let the likes of djjd discourage you.If the speakers where not broken in then shoot the idiot who brought a pair of speakers that where not broken in.
If you are going to get one shoot to impress do it.
Rent the room for a few extra days before the show and tweak the room.Dont cry when your sound is bad and blame it on the room the speakers are not broke in.
Again everyone had the same lousy hotel rooms to set up in.So even playing field.Some sound good some sound bad.
Trelja great job on telling it like it is. |
THIS MORNING, the totals are not visible. I should have checked to see if Djjd's complete tally was available to me as well, but did not think of it at the time. Definately some glitches in the software, plus the site is often much slower than usual (even when I access through a DSL link). |
THE VOTING SYSTEM ON THIS SITE IS SCREWED UP. FOR SOME REASON I CAN SEE THE VOTING TOTAL ON ONE OF DJJD'S POSTS AND NOT ONLY HAVE I NEVER VOTED ON THIS POST, I AM NOT EVEN LOGGED INTO THE SITE (I JUST CHECKED AT THE SIGN IN PAGE). THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED EITHER, SO MUCH FOR PRIVACY. |
Prfont, I saw the Dodson in there Sunday morning if I recall correctly. Could have been gone or not in use that afternoon. The Sony-Dodson combination is what I use personally so I noticed it. |
Drubin,
I was there Sunday afternoon, was the Dodson in the rack? I found in the rooms I liked, I looked less, and listened more, so its possible I missed it. If it was, then the sound of the Sony/Dodson was very,very close to the Sony on SACD. Maybe there are some photos floating around to clear this up. Thanks. Forgot to mention that in addition to the above, I thought the Merlin, Joule, Aero Capitole room was also excellent. |
The EAR/Silverline room had a Dodson DAC in their system. Unless they weren't using it, you were hearing the Sony as transport-only for redbook CDs. |
Thanks Trelja, I was going to limit myself to positive reviews but your post has persuaded my otherwise.
Big disappointments: the nagra/eggelston room. I listened for a while when they were playing some Ellington on their open reel, something was really missing here. Sounded somewhat better with an SACD of Stevie Ray Vaughn but only marginally so. The Vandy/Cary Room I found a little bright, but that was friday morning so maybe things were sorted out better through the weekend - not bad sound, just what I wouldn't expect at that price. The Alon room: hard to describe, big sound, but big midlevel gear like a decent Rega Planar 3 with a good tube integrated only 1O x's the soundstage. The Utopia/Lamm/DCS combo: again I was expecting to be transported here, but instead was glad that I hadn't written that six figure check. Finally, the Dynaudio Room: lots of pyrotechics but no music, here though I thought there might be lots of potential for improvement, but nothing that made me want to stay and figure out how. My best sound vote goes to the Sakura/47 labs room. I really was surprised by this. Ok, the front end was the 25K pitracer as transport, progression dac and then gaincard as amp. These drove Vaessen? (Belgian) monitors. Wow. Just a really, really different type of Hifi. Sounded very smooth lush, tons of detail etc...At the other end of the spectrum I really liked the Totem Hawks with a Rega planet 2000/brio combo. I thought this set-up in a very small room really embarrassed a lot of the bigboy stuff. Also the Arcam CD 23 plus their new integrated(?) with AE minimonitors sounded really good. I guess my bias is showing here, or maybe I adjusted my expecations with price(I don't think so)? I think there's a lot more consistently good stuff at the 1k to 2K per component range than 20K plus statement pieces - its out there, but you've got to look harder. I also was happy to hear, in the EAR/Silverline room a Sony ES 777, after reading so much criticisim of its CD's capabilities I was very pleasantly surprised. Had my first, brief listen to an SACD here, and yeah, it was very,very good. Sony, you may now send me one. |
Joe, Thanks for your report. I'm sure it took a lot of time, and it was very helpful. That type of initiative helps keep this site great. (I'm still one of the guys who really likes this site, faults and all). Thanks for your opinions. I don't agree with all of them, but as you said "that's why they make chocolate and vanilla". As far as the side thread here, I wouldn't concern myself with anyone's opinions of me, especially if that someone is willing to make a judgement about me based on a single action or statement. From our past conversations, I am sure you are not swayed by or worried about that. So, to make it short, thanks again and keep up the good work.
Happy listening everyone,
Todd |
trelja, sorry to have gotten your name screwed up in my last post. i'd like to think my spellchecker did it. can't be sure. ;>). -kelly |
i've been to something like 10 ces's and 3 stereophile shows, tho i turned down several invitations to attend the latest exhibition in nyc about which trelga started this thread. i recall vividly the 1st big time show i went to in las vegas, when the "audio highend" shared space at the sahara with the "adult video" crowd. there, too, the crowds were confining, the signage was less helpful than brail menus to the sighted, the layout of the "bilevel" was virtually impossible to fathom and most of the rooms had all the sonic characteristics one might expect when a shoddy "suite" from which the simulated woodgrain plastic-covered furniture has been removed is filled with multi-thousand-dollar audio ephemera and a few plants that are supposed to look good in the hoped-for pictures to be taken by the all-powerful gurus of the superspecialized "hifi" press. to make matters worse, the electrical system at the sahara was so overloaded, just supplying juice to the slots, that several semi-sized trailers housing huge generators were parked within hearing distance of many rooms, spewing diesel fumes and just enough extra volts to assure brownouts would prevail over the black variety. still, in this seemingly unworkable environment, some systems shown through. and there was magic in the air. stuff from which dreams are composed.
now, when i return to ces, i know what to listen for. some of the best sound comes from rooms that war veterans have set up. they know by now the general "acoustic" characteristics of the venue, now the alexis park, and bring the sort of equipment and room treatments that will make the chosen of their product line sound best. the champ of this ilk at ces 2001 was the guy from westlake audio who set up a $1500 pair of monitors to mate with around $70k of boulder electronics. he built a kind of cocoon in which was placed one perfect listening chair surrounded, front, top and rear by acoustical fabric/treatment.
other exhibitors displayed their wares seemingly unadorned. yet some very few of them also stood out from the masses. among this small group was nagra. this superluxe swiss company played second-generation master tapes on their spy sized reel-to-reel through wilson watt/puppy 6.1's. gorgeous looking. awesome sounding.
i offer these observations not to undercut or diminish the views of others on this thread but merely to provide a frame of reference. audio shows offer a special sort of place to hear a wide array of equipment. nearly always, that equipment is heard in far less than optimal spaces. nonetheless, sometimes one can hear through these limitations and be inspired. that, in a nutshell, is my experience.
trelga, i commend you for the bravery needed to start this thread. i hope many more in our small community get the opportunity to experience the pleasure and pain of hifi shows. i can assure you, it will add almost immeasurably to your knowledge of this sport.
happy listening. -kelly |
One more thing, congratulations to Stereophile, Stereophile Guide to Home Theater, and Home Theater magazines for presenting such an exciting and fun event. The flaws were still only a minor aspect of the show. many dealers were helpful and offered their time very generously, and it sure was fun to get a look and a listen to all that gear. Pefstatiou, I haven't seen a pony tail in NY since 1992, so I question the home town of the aforementioned Red Rose salesman, perhaps he reminds you of the pony tail you always wanted, but were afraid to grow? Sorry, can't let too many jabs at New York go by without a right cross in return. If we are lucky enough to host another show next year I promise to post a suggestion to all Audiogon members that we all meet and share a drink or two . |
Charlie, please forgive me for not answering your question. In terms of room treatment, I don't feel capable of giving you a very accurate number. I will leave it to the concensus of all that were there. On my end, can I venture a guess that it seemed to be a little less than half? Some companies did very little, just a piece or two or whatever. It did seem to me that the companies who were in the bigger rooms, on the 2nd and 4th floors, used a lot more room treatment. Are my feelings based on the fact that they had more room, or I am just dreaming? We keep going back to the Roman Audio room, for good reason. They seemed to really put a lot into room treatment. These guys, despite being not well know, really looked to have their act together. Excellent sound. I was most impressed. As I previously stated, I never heard their equipment before, but would like to hear more in the future. And, enjoy the Creek. Take pride in the fact that you can make it sound so good. It does have the potential. Sqjudge, thank you so much for your perspective on what a very dilligent company puts into the show. And no, I did not take notes. Everything in this thread is straight off the top of my head. I thought about taking notes next year. Only for the fact that there is so much that I was not able to retain. Someone mentioning something does jar it from my memory effectively. I doubt I will take notes in the future. My feelings about notes is that they would rob my spontaneity, enjoyment of the show, and make me look like someone from the press. As it was, I was just like everyone else there. One thing I do want to say is that I had a great time. This is one of my favorite hobbies in life, and I welcome the opportunity to participate in it on many levels. Sure, there was bad sound there. But, there was a lot of good sound too. I do hope I conveyed strongly my appreciation for the companies/rooms I liked. I got to hear a lot of great music, see a lot of equipment, meet people, and gauge the general health of our hobby(which seems to be thriving). Isn't that what it's all about? |
Hi Trelja: Nice report, I think, and too bad that the overall sound was not better as this should be what the show is all about. Better luck next time. I am not surprised by your comments at all when I think about all of the audio showrooms that I have visited over the years with good gear, but mediocre sound. These guys spent 50+ hours a week in their shops and never got it right as it could have been. It is however difficult to throw together a system in a short amount of time (in a new room) and get it down pat. We all know this as well as that it is the many small things that add up to make a significant improvement overall. We spend months and even years doing to our systems what the reps are trying to accomplish in a very short time frame. The people that did get great sound though are either extremely lucky or gifted or perhaps a combination of both. |
Thanks Trelja for starting this. I came away with a little different impressions. As my mother does not celebrate anything anymore I spent all 3 days at the Hilton.
My take on the TAS room was that the sound was decent and the presentation well run. But together with some other rooms are addressed to Bill Gates and family. It is usefull to listen to the state of the art but I am more interested in things that I can hope to acquire some day. In this same league I would place the mbl system that occupies half the surface of a typical living room. However it sounded very nice especially given the constraints of the small hotel unit. I was not impressed by Egglestone and in the past I have liked their Andras. I think that Egglestone the person is not connected with the company anymore. The Airfoil hybrid is intriguing but with serious appearance problems ( and I have no spouse to contend with). In the cost no object level Lamm monoblocks and Utopias sounded impressive. Vandersteen lacked some magic. Spectral MIT Wilson : the bass was simply too much for that small room. Sonus Faber Amati hommage next door sounded more delicate. I, also agree with the reservations of others regarding Red Rose (they did feature SACD and a middle aged New Yorker salesman with regulation pony tail though). The Europeans who featured VAIC tube amplification with Ultimate Line (? not sure about the exact name) speakers produced superb results (speakers for $38000 featuring a tweeter made of diamond plasma). Cds were playing through the complete dcS chain. I enjoyed a lot the downstairs space of Headroom where one could check virtually every headphone under the audiophile sun starting from Grado sr60s to Sennheiser Orpheus . Included were Stax and every specialized amplifier. I ended up investing in a pair of Beyerdynamic 931 and the Wheatfield tube unit. I also liked the Grado amplifier.
Any opinions on the Tact? I think they are into something and both presenters were extremely were informed and pleasant. Their room compensation method works as it was easily demonstrated (on the other hand perpetual technologies was a disappointment; they played through Martin Logans that I never liked anyway and in a A to B comparison the sound was different but I would not say better with the compensation). Excellent sound I found in both AudioPhysic rooms both driven by tubes . The smaller Spark speakers were combined with Rogue Audio. The larger AvantiIII with Hovland. My vote for the best sound was this system fed analogue by Immedia and Lyra Helikon. Very pleasantly surprised I was when I discovered tucked at the end of 2nd floor Roman Audio (based in Texas and not in Italy). They featured a speaker they call Centurion that is a reworking of the drivers inside the Cabasse Farella. As noted already the crossover employs the diaural system of Kimber. This $5400 system sang in a pure Krell room and for my ears was better than the Krell LATs speakers upstairs ($10000). I concurr with the positive things said about Legend. In the large Linn room the CD12 sounded better than the LP12 combo but my judgment could be affected by the frisson of sitting next to Mike Fremmer.
In the category of entertaining Europeans Lars from Nordost gave a convincing presentation of the importance of cables with quick switches of interconnects. I would like to audition the Valhallas again. Music played was not audiophile crap but Cream, Doors and Led Zeppelin.
My overall impression was that the show was a great success and 2 channell is alive and well. But hey,if your cup of tea is home theater with Avantgarde or JM Labs their reps will be very happy to sell you some. |
Trelja - there is really no need to defend yourself against the naysayers. You are honest and heartfelt and, above all, reasonable in your observations. Your fairness should serve as a model for all who frequent this site. The criticisms you make are not about taste. Plainly, people need to realize that so much of the gear is hyped and should never see the light of day. Instead of a cornucopia of wonderful sounding-equipment (which I yearn for when attending audio-shows), I ALWAYS come away feeling duped and cheated. I have few brand-allegiances, nor do I like to "trash" various manufacturers, but on no account am I willing to tolerate high-ticket or highly advertised components which are just mediocre-sounding. Hopefully, this wonderful forum will engender a more critical attitude about what really constitutes good equipment and help to purge this otherwise great hobby of the detritus that some are unwilling to acknowledge. |
May I repeat my question? How many rooms had no or poor acoustic treatment? BTW, thanks for the thorough post.
And Joe, thanks for bailing out my 5350SE. I have been crying for a couple of days now, but I have just unpacked her and put her back in the system where she belongs. Whew, that was close.
Charlie |
Trelja, I must commend you on your systematic approach towards reporting on the show. You must have taken notes, and even with them I do not believe I could have been so thorough. Thank you for your report, your opinions, and your defense of the manufacturers doing a poor job. I will now relay a story of one manufacturer.
I have a friend who is building speakers. He was playing them for days and days before he carefully packed them for shipment on wednesday. When these speakers were set up the first time in the room friday they were horrible. (as told to me by my friend) They experimented with room treatment and to no avail. The bass was really missing and the stage was not up to standards. My friend told me "I was about to pull my hair out" when the cause of the bass problen was found. One of the walls was between them and a storage area. This wall was very thin and was causing the problem. My friend told me had they not discovered the problem he would have pulled the speaker from the show. It was 10 PM when they started tearing the system down and moving to a better position. It was very late before everything was ready for the show.
I felt that everyone should know that some people do care how their system sounds and apparently others do not. |
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Thanks to everyone for both the support and the criticism. As I reported previously, I simply reported my own impressions. Good or bad. If anyone has a problem with them, that is fine. You can either accept it or reject it. But, you will be getting it from me. I don't care who you are, I will not sugar coat something. I hold the high end manufacturers to a high standard. If you have a problem with that, tough. If I step on some toes, that is OK. Not everything in life is perfect, or deserves praise. I did praise those who I felt worthy of it. Likewise, I torched those worthy of it. No excuses. No apologies. As Joekras states, we are East Coast guys. We tell things like they are. If you are into BS, I am sure you can find those people too. From what I see, the vast majority of what I have stated has been echoed by others who either attended the show, or have experience with the product. That tells me I am more close to the mark than I am far. Those opinions are coming from some of the most respected members of this site. I don't think I can be unhappy about that. I'll put these people up against ANYONE in this industry. There will always people who don't want to hear whatever message. Some more opinion... The Talon speakers have been trashed by many here. We all have basically the same opinions of them. That should speak volumes. Sean's analysis of how the speakers measure mirrored my impressions perfectly. I will again ask, this is a speaker with a 5 digit price tag??? I haven't heard them broken in, but from the way they sounded at the show, they have created a lot of hype(in Stereophile and on Audiogon) over an inferior(yes, you read that right) product. I am confident anyone with a good sense of sound would not plunk down that kind of money for such a speaker. Their finish is excellent, their design is beautiful, their ad copy first rate. The sound at the show was HORRIBLE! I buy a product based on how it sounds, not how great the finish, design, or advertisements are. If the speakers were not broken in, and do sound much better than they did over the weekend, the people at the show should lose their jobs. I know if that was my company they would. They just cost me A LOT of business. Now, on to Creek. This is a Stereophile Class A rated integrated amp that they decided to pair with a decidedly inferior pair of speakers. What came out? Bad sound. Suprise? No. I gave Creek a compliment by saying their stuff can sound much better. Whoever made the decision in pairing that amp with that speaker did the company a tremendous disservice. Maybe they should lose their jobs. The point of a show is to make your product sound as good as possible. So maybe a person with no local dealer will have his interest piqued enough to buy. I am lucky enough to have my dealer carry Creek. I know what it can do. This was not that. Now who appears in a worse light, the Creek people at the show, or those who want to gloss over Creek's shortcomings in setting up a good system? Dynaudio is one of the class marques in speakers. Why do they not know how to make an $85K speaker, in a very good room, sound good? I didn't bash Acarian, just stated that they used to make speakers which were reasonably priced, and didn't absolutely take over a room(4 gigantic tower - the only speaker they showed). No longer. Lots of us stated that Red Rose was not what they hype. But really, did we actually expect a speaker with a 5.25" woofer to sound like a full range speaker? Something about the laws of physics kicking in there. The horn company that showed with AtmaSphere was awful. In a second floor room(read big - which should mean good, and one of the two main floors) they had no one in there. I stayed a good five minutes(because I like AtmaSphere so much), and watched people walk out looking as if they just sucked on a lemon after just 10 seconds of listening. My comments about Linn are exactly what everyone else wrote. Too much bass(in a big room) and too bright. We are all welcome to our opinions, regardless of whether we agree or disagree. However, you will not be able to quell mine, no matter how hard you try. |
Looks like some people don't mind when others share an opinion just so long as it lacks any sense of emotion or commitment. Sorry, not my cup of tea. By putting a little of themselves into a dissertation a writer makes their work more interesting and believeable. Understanding that just because it's in writing doesn't make it true *is* important to this perspective. Otherwise the tendency is to take things too seriously.
I liked Trelja's review of this show. His sense of excitement made me want to be there in spite of the obviously downsides. |
Djjd – Let me explain my defense of Trejla. Hi-end audio is a very specialized field with a relatively small group of individuals and a very small group of manufacturers. Most of us live in markets where these products aren’t readily available for audition without traveling a distance. My guess is that most of the smaller designers of these products aren’t in it for the money so much as the satisfaction of lending their talents to the improvement of SOTA sound. Maybe they feel they have something better to offer than is already out there. Whatever their reasons, to get attention, that is to present your product in the best possible light, all efforts should be made and no stones should be left unturned. A 101 class in marketing might just help some of these designers that don’t seem to have a clue.
Now if you have a small manufacturer that is spending several thousand dollars to present his product for hundreds if not thousands of potential customers to hear, why would you not spend THE TIME and added expense to make sure that your product is sounding its best? A very good point was made by Joekras, we all don’t have ideal listening environments. I’m going to pick on Talon again for the simple reason that I have heard exactly what Trejla has stated about what he heard, and from owners. They take several hundred hours to break-in. My question is why don’t the Talon folks break the speakers in BEFORE the show? Duh, am I missing something here? I may or may not hear their intrinsic virtues during a brief listen but I’m certainly going to give more consideration if I hear them at their best. I read exactly the same comments from professional reviewers at the CES in January. These manufacturers are asking a lot from potential customers to just write off the fact that “show conditions” were the basis for poor sound. I say let the chips fall where they will. If a manufacturer IS NOT savvy enough to realize the opportunity a show presents in showcasing his product, the fact is he isn’t going to last in this tough, competitive world of hi-end audio and as far as I’m concerned doesn’t deserve to. Hi-end audio is a hard-nosed unforgiving business, more so than many. These guys need to wake up to the fact that first impressions are the most important. They need to take advantage and seize the moment. I say if they don’t know how to set-up a room HIRE someone that does. As far as I’m concerned there is no excuse for some of the poor sound I’ve heard at the few shows I attended other than lack of effort.
One final word, Trejla or any one individual that posts here on Audiogon isn’t going to influence my opinion or anyone else’s concerning any particular product. We are as individualistic and opinionated a group as any I can think of. I certainly value yours and Macm’s opinion as well as Joe’s. I hear in Joe’s comments an absolute frustration, maybe even a general admonishment to manufacturers. They really need to do better if they want our business. We are talking about products with price tags in the multi thousands of dollars. I don’t know about you but I have both hands on my wallet and before I shake one hand loose long enough to plunk down the long green, I’m going to be certain about what I’m paying for and I won’t be influenced by anything more than my own ears. |
The vendors at the A/V show are supposed to be the most concerned with the proper demonstrations of their products, after all, they are trying to sell you something. Instead of the majority of companies making an extra effort to enhance their presentations, and a minority of companies being careless, the opposite was true. I make allowances for the hectic atmosphere and technical difficulties, but it seems as if half of the products were not ready for prime time. Perhaps cables were not broken in, or speakers were not broken in, but what does it say to you about a company that doesn't care enough to get the details together, or worse, employees that can't tell the difference between a good sound or harsh sound? I offer an example not from the show, but one that makes the point. I went to the Sony Style store in NYC last week to buy a few SACD's. They did not have a way to show customers all of the SACD's that were available, only what they happened to have in stock. A manager promised to mail me a list, and it never came. Furthermore, their flagship Home Theater room had an older model, non progressive scan DVD player in 4/3 mode when it should have been 16X9. Considering they will make the most profit from software, and should present their products in the best possible way on their own turf, this is ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Sony basher, in fact I just got the Sony DVP-9000ES, and it surpassed my already high expectations. I am saying that the same kind of carelessness was evident at the audio show, and yes, many of the speakers did not sound very good. These manufacturers had every opportunity to get it right, and blew it. Don't be too hard on Trelja, he did us all a good turn by reporting his experience. If he wasn't tactful enough for some, or didn't take into account all of the variables that might have skewed a manufacturers presentation, the companies only have themselves to blame. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, talk about the Emperor's New clothes, who was fooled by "The Harry Pearson Room? Quoted from The Absolut sound..."it is clear that we now stand on the edge of a breakthrough to a new kind of realism in the reproduction of music in the home". His $236,000 system was
just plain wrong. Many great components were combined to create the clearest, hardest "sound reinforcement" type sound I have ever heard. It was as if you were at a concert with an extremely clear system, but subtlety, and true musicality were sacrificed to the god of bombastic presentation. Put simply, the sound hurt my ears, and a few other people's ears that I know.Here we had a Burmester belt drive CD transport, DAC and power conditioner,that costs $65,000, A Clearaudio $27,000 turntable rig, Conrad Johnson's Art 2 line stage preamp $16,000, Edge NL12 Amplifiers (aptly named),Groove phono stage($15,000), $53,000 worth of Nordost cables,VTL MB-750 power tube amplifier at $20,000 each ,Wisdom (?) Loudspeakers,$38,000, and it really offered very little in the way of real listening enjoyment! Amazing! This definetely proves that you can throw money at something, and it doesn't necessarily make for a good result, not to mention all the well meaning, pleasant, but misguided smiling faces on the presenters at this demonstration. Also, I must say that having the show on Mother's Day was a serious timing error! Thanks to all the members for posting their impressions of the show. I couldn't spend as much time as I would have liked to at the show due to relatives arriving from England. |
I have a question about the rooms at the CES. Yes at times they were obviously crowded and sometimes noisy (sometimes not). The rooms are average size hotel rooms. Most of the rooms in my home are less ideal than these typical rooms at the Hilton. Tell me, what kind of rooms is this equipment designed for?
Trelja- thank you for telling us what you heard. |
I found the Sony SACD room extremely impressive. I appreciated the natural frequency response with deep- yet not bloated bass. I found the Sony speakers to be of high quality. They are designed and manufactured by a small Sony high end division in the US and have a true high end pedigree. The resolution of SACD and the realistic presentation of space were exceptional. I also found the Red Rose Music and Krell rooms especially musical and realistic- without the bass problems troubling the larger systems. I was pleased that there seemd to be an increased interest in music reproduction at this show. Although the crowds were large on Friday and Saturday, I was happy to see so much interest in high end audio. I enjoyed the show. |
BRAVOOOO BRULEE,you are right.. |
Trelja, in the thread ethics values and morals, there is some excellent advice by Djjd. If you gave an honest expression of your experience and weren't disrespectful--then just ignore the flies. How can they possibly hurt you. Ignore the flies Trelja. You said it Djjd, not me. |
Djjd, you lost respect for Trelja because he reported back to us all what he heard? Was it Trelja's fault that some of these rooms were not set up properly. You were not at the show yet you blast Trelja for his opinions on what he heard. If telling it like it is is shameful then we need more shameful posters like Trelja and a few less cry babies.
When Stereopile comes out with it's show report I am sure you will feel vindicated. Djjd, you've lost my respect, and since you are not going to change your shameful ways, you won't be getting it back. Trelja, thanks for telling us what you heard. |
Macm - Once again you said precisely what needed to be said without being uncivil or vindictive. Thank you. For the record, my earlier comments were not directed at Trelja's post in particular, though I too feel he crossed the line from offering an honest opinion to engaging in irresponsible negative campaigning. "Refreshing honesty"? Such arogant, absolutist, matter-of-fact criticisms -- based on a brief and unreliable listening session -- are not only unfair, they can be devastating to low-volume, high-end audio companies trying to explore new directions and advance the art of music reproduction. I'm actually surprised a few other Audiogoners tried to defend such rash statements. Tubegroover - I've valued your posts in the past, but perhaps you should read Trelja's remarks again: he never suggested the Talon speakers at the show needed to be broken-in or that poor set-up or room acoustics could have played a role in shaping his impressions. Instead, he stated categorically, and without allowing for any other explanations, that it is a "lousy sounding speaker." Since Trelja was aware that there are many other experienced listeners who are quite impressed with Talon speakers (see, e.g., his post trashing Legacy speakers in the 9-11-00 thread "Talon Khorus"), he should have at least allowed for the possibility that what he heard at the show wasn't the speaker's fault. He did not. Trelja could also have allowed for the possibility that maybe he just didn't like the unembellished, highly-revealing sound of the Talon because he personally favors warmer speakers like Vandersteen (which he praised) and Coincident (which he owned). No mention that this might have played a role in shaping his impressions either.
I wasn't able to attend the NY show, so I can't say how the various products criticized in this thread sounded as they were set up for the see-it, touch-it crowds. I'm sure many of the products did sound poor given the circumstances. But people need to keep in mind that such ad hoc venues are not reliable testing grounds and that each of the products in question may have real merits when tried objectively in a proper setting.
I haven't suggested before, and I'm not suggesting now, that people should censor their opinions. I do, however, feel we each have a responsibility to ensure the way we state an opinion is not slanderous or unfairly critical. I also believe each of us has a responsibility to discuss the possible factors that may have led us to a negative opinion of a product, particularly where the opinion is potentially very damaging and contrary to other reported opinions. As Macm astutely noted, it's not so much what you say but how you say it. Nevertheless, this is an open forum, and if you chose to act irresponsibly and severely criticize a product based on a quick listen in a marginal environment, without describing possible contributing factors, that's up to you. Just don't expect me to trust your opinions or advice ever again. And Trelja, if you're upset by this criticism of your post -- made from a few of your remarks and without my taking the time to get to know more about you -- perhaps this will help drive the point home. You've lost my respect, and since you are "NOT going to change" your shameful ways, you won't be getting it back. Don |
Trelja--First off, my comments to you were not intended to start any sort of flame war. I realize you were just stating your opinion, and I think we all recognize the time you took to record your thoughts for the membership here. I certainly don't have a problem with differing opinions. To each his own, as they say. My point was simply this: Having heard the gear under such poor listening conditions, you crossed the line from stating your opinion in the negative to essentially campaigning against certain products. It's like the difference between "I didn't like what I heard" and "this is garbage under any circumstances, don't waste your time." Knowing that you reached your conclusions in an overcrowded, undersized room in some hotel with a lousy elevator, that strikes me as just a little unfair. It's unfair to the companies you disparaged, and it's unfair to the membership that might be considering the products you put down. I think we've all been influenced one way or the other by online reviews/opinions we've read. I don't think it's right for anyone to dismiss a product as essentially junk unless they've given the product a fair shake under proper listening conditions. The issue isn't with your conclusions, it's with the way you arrived at them, and the force with which you then stated them. For the record, I've heard some of the gear you criticized (under much better listening conditions), and I can say that it competes with the best in its class. I won't get into makes and models as that is not my point. (And no, I don't work in the industry.) In summary--yes, we're all entitled to our opinions, but you don't do anyone any favors by telling them to look elsewhere when you really can't say you've properly auditioned the product yourself. It's a matter of fairness. |
Trelja: if you get the Sequerra conditioner, let us know what you think. It is cheaper and smaller than PS audio, so I am seriously considering it too. |
Due to the large crowds and my impatience in waiting more than 10 minutes, I didn't see or hear everything I should have. However, I must say I was mightly impressed by Sony's SACD demo. Kudos to them for renting a large room and giving it a thorough acoustical treatment. The room had a dead, almost an anechoic chamber like quality. Their decision to keep attendance low in each demonstration made it a comfortable, memorable experience.
As for the three selections played: one pop cut (James Taylor) and two classical selections, my reaction was that this was some of the best sound I have ever heard. Soundstaging, depth, and scale were extraordinary. As much a high-end snob as I am, I have to admit that Sony's flagship speakers ($16K a pair) sounded superb. No doubt some of this was due to the room treatment and Pass X600 amps, but if that's what it takes to make good audio, then
congratulations to Sony, they did it right!
Now, the organization which demonstrated one of Harry Pearson's "dream" systems should take heed and follow Sony's example. HP's collection of huge, expensive, and snobish components were "boom and sizzle" compared to Sony's holistic approach! |
My show report. Friday was pretty disappointing. I was annoyed at the layout of the hotel, the crowds, signage and labeling, and disappointed by the sound in most rooms. Plus, it seemed that more than half the attendees were either in the industry or with the press in some capacity, so they were busy "networking." Waiting at the elevators, I asked Jonathan Valin of TAS if he’d heard anything good. He said, "To tell the truth, no. This is the worst show I’ve ever been to. It’s appalling, really." I agreed. Fortunately, things got better for me on Saturday and Sunday, and Sunday was wonderfully uncrowded with a lot of good sound. I find that I need to visit a room several times to get a fix on it, and the first day I usually try to blast through everything quickly. By the end, I can hang out in the rooms that I really like. Highlights: the Gershman Opera Sauvage speakers driven by the marvelous, handsome, and affordable Kora tube electronics from Toulouse, France. This was wonderful sound and the Gershman folks and the people from Kora were all delightful. Biggest "find" for me was the TacT Audio rooms. They were showing the digital room correction and digital amplification driving the Dali Grand speakers in one room and some B&Ws in the other. I think the Dali Grands in particular sounded wonderful and the effects of room correction were obvious and significant. I think I’m going to take the plunge and try it out, knowing full well the set of tradeoffs I may have to make (I’ll have to run analog and SACD though a D-to-A--egad!). But doing the room correction will teach me so much about what’s going with my system that I think it will be worth it at least as an experiment. And those Dali Grands! Not terribly detailed, but tonally very much to my liking. At $5K or less they are very promising. I visited they Vandersteen room all three days. Vandersteens always sound overly sterile and uninvolving to me, but on the third day, all that changed. It must have been me, because they system was unchanged. I heard an enormous and focused soundstage, wonderful authority, and a sweetness and warmth that made me want to listen. Great sound. I spent a fair a mount of time in the DiAural room, which featured speakers from Roman Audio using drivers from Cabasse. They shared certain sonic characteristics with Cabasse speakers (fat bass, soft highs), but I think there’s something important going on with the DiAural crossover network. These speakers were so remarkably smooth and fatigue-free through the midrange that I could have listened to them forever. The only other dynamic speaker I have heard with a similar quality is the Reference 3A, which also has a very minimal crossover, but the DiAural is doing something else. I think it has a promising future. Other good sound: the Triangle speakers, including the amazing $495/pair Titus. The Audio Physic Spark driven the Rogue electronics. I actually preferred this to the larger Audio Physic speakers with Hovland electronics in the adjacent room. I spent a lot of time in the Coincident room and while I liked the sound (and really liked Israel Blume), I wish I had liked it more. Others seemed to not like the Dynaudio, but on Sunday they sounded glorious to me. This is the new scaled-down Evidence, called the Temptation and priced at $30K. The tweeters in these things sounded amazing to me. Fist time I have ever liked Dynaudio at a show. A surprising lack of analog playback in at the show. And a shocking lack of SACD—not sure I heard any. Both of these in sharp contrast to CES. Disappointments: Talon. I went twice and I just don’t get it. Very poor demonstration—I think those guys from Talon don’t know what they’re doing (the guys at the show, I mean). Sounded good in some respects, but not much like music (to my ears). Alas, Red Rose did not sound as good here as at their store or as they did in either of two rooms at CES. Too bad. Biggest waste of time (besides waiting for elevators): having to endure the midlife crisis ramblings of Elliott Fishkin of Innovative Audio while waiting for the Wilson Audio demo. But I did it twice because the Watt/Puppy 6.0 sounded so good and the demo was done by the terrific Peter McGrath. I don’t understand why that speaker is seemingly ignored in Audiogon discussions because it seems to do just about everything at a world-class level. The Keb Mo’ concert Saturday night exceeded my expectations in every way. A great show. Thank you, Keb Mo and Sony. Joe Lovano was also a treat. If anybody’s listening, how about Gary Bartz next year? Also, I love the flat-panel plasma displays. Runco’s 42 incher with Arcam electronics in a Sound by Singer room absolutely blew me away. I want it! (By the way, kudos to Sound by Singer for the great signage in their rooms and for the variety of systems they showed, including some that were truly real world.) So in the end I had a great time. Next year the show is the same weekend (May 10-12), same hotel (yuck), but I’ll be there! --Dan Rubin |
did anybody listened transparent opus or mit oracle v1?? |
This is NEW YORK. Tell it like it is. Enough with the sensitivity training. Unfortunatly I did not have enough time to see every room but I thought the Legend stuff was stand out. I looked forward to hearing the Audio Physic demo. Heard the Virgo once before and was impressed. Is it possible the other AP models on demo at the show are not competitve with the Virgo? One pair was half the price and the other twice the price. |
I agree w/ Joe, it was just his opinion and I can either agree or disagree with it. In some cases I disagree, but we all have our opinions. The show also seemed to care as they had ballots for attendees to pick not only the best 3 sounds at the show, but asked you to nominate the WORST sound of the show. I'm sure no one wants to win that one. The ballots don't remind voters to consider room accoustics and such. |
If you think this is a diatribe, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. That is exactly what I have been stating here. MY OPINION. I am sorry if you don't like it. But, I am also standing up here big, tall, and proud to tell you that what you complain about is NOT going to change my approach. I will simply give my impressions of what I saw and heard. If you don't like it, fine. Be sure to check out Stereophile's report of the show. It will be rosy all around. My report is aimed at my fellow members on this site. A site where we are not afraid to tell things like they are. It is my HONEST opinion. Good or bad. And, there was a lot of good sprinkled in. If I trash a room, it is because I thought the sound was poor. Simple as that. I have no relationships with any company at the show. I wonder what your reasons are for getting offended at what was written. Just keep in mind that my credibility seems to be OK, as I am not the only person stating certain companies did a lousy job. And, even if I am the only one saying it, that is OK. It is simply my taste. Question to you, would you rather have someone sit here and tell you EVERY room was peaches and cream? If so, I am sorry, but you will be disappointed with anything that you get from me. That just isn't in my personality. I am a big fan of Rogue, and I felt their sound to be bad. Now that I read Snooker14's post, I seem to remember that Rogue was teamed up with Audio Physics speakers. Bad combination, in my OPINION. Snooker disagreed. That's fine. That's why they make vanilla AND chocolate. I have no problems with anyone who disagrees with me. I am no authority in this field. I do expect good sound from people who make their livings in the field, however. Is that too much to ask? And Snooker, I am interested in the Dick Sequerra power conditioner. It is $895, will be marketed through AlphaCore Goertz, and hopefully will help in an issue I experience in my system. They told me if it doesn't, simply return it. |
I went to the show and I had a great time....why else would I have stayed for nearly 3 days? It was my first show and I went with an open mind and the sure knowledge that you can't get the best sound in a hotel.
I got to see gear I never see except in a magazine. I got to hear equipment I may never hear anywhere else. I got to talk to writers, engineers, inventors, owners, babes hired as fluff, etc..... Dick Sequerra is certainly a character, but don't mention Day of Day-Sequerra unless you want to hit a brick wall....oops. What does anyone think of his new power conditioner? He says it is great but that is what he is supposed to say. It is being sold under the name of the company with whom he was affiliated at the show. My sieve for a memory is too active dropping all the important stuff...so someone who took notes will have to comment. I really wanted to like Red Rose, but I did not. I saw every room at the show twice, so I got a good feel for the shortfalls of the hotel environment. Red Rose was just too disappointing. I was impressed with the German made Audio Physics speakers. A lot of sound for a small size floor speaker..........the weather could not have been better; the elevators could not have been worse. Ask Jonathan Scull, stuck in an overloaded car for 20 min. or more. We will probably read about his experience in Stereophile next month. Great reports above by all who went. Of course we had a different view on things and we are not all professional reviewers, so objectivity will not be the best. The opinions expressed here are those of the individuals and should not in any way be taken to reflect the opinion of audiophiles as a whole. |
Macm and Djjd, I didn't really feel that Trejla was "reviewing" anything but rather offering his opinion on how things sounded at the show. The remarks concerning Talon speakers in particular seems to reflect what has been typically stated about their sound without the proper break-in. It seems to me that a manufacturer that is going to go through the time and expense of doing a show would do all possible to present good sound. I don't think enough of them pay attention to that very important detail. Show conditions notwithstanding, I think all Joe did was state what he heard and what he liked. It should be a wake-up call for manufacturer’s do better. If they can’t or won’t they generally lose out by lost business through lack of interest. A show is a great opportunity for manufacturers and dealers alike to strut their stuff and it shouldn’t be squandered but often is. I ask you this why does Bobby Palkovic always get great reviews of his products at shows? Because he has a better product or is it because he knows how to set up a room to optimize the virtues of his products? |
Good question Macm -- some of these posts read more like diatribes than objective reviews. Generally, I like to hear what other people think, even if I don't always agree with what they say. But any time someone completely trashes a product after listening to it briefly in a marginal setting, I can't help but believe that person has a hidden agenda or some underlying prejudice that biased their brief listening "session." I always take note of who makes such posts and never pay any attention to any of their advice in the future. Ditto for the posters who offer summary "reviews" that are so contrary to my experience -- and to other people's similar experiences -- they can only be viewed as erroneous or fabricated. Don |
Was that a review or a diatribe? By your own account, the rooms were too small and there were too many people packed in them to give most companies a proper audition. In the case of one company (Creek) you even admit to having heard the gear sound better, presumably in a more favorable setting. Yet none of that stops you from making some pretty derogatory statements about the gear whose sound just didn't meet with your approval. It's one thing to say you didn't like something, it's another thing to trash companies by saying, "Brains and money don't necessarily go hand in hand." At least under the listening circumstances you've described it is. I would have enjoyed your comments more if you'd exercised more prudence in writing your reviews. |
I wish I would have met some of you. I agree w/ some not with others. The Vandersteen/Cary was great. I also like the Innovative Audio's(a local NYC dealer)Wilson/Spectral stuff, but was not impressed by the same dealers Sonus Faber/Levinson demo. Other sounds I like were the Alon system (these speakers were huge), the Mirage, and some electostatic speaker I can't remeber (42nd floor, air Foil?) I did like the Talon though did not think it was spectacular. I ditto Telja on the Dynaudio. I was very dissapointed. I've heard so much great things about Dyna's and went in expecting to be wowed, perhaps I had my expectations too high. Also did anyone here the Avantgarde/BAT/Cardas room. They said you will feel like you are actually at the performance. I felt like I was in a dark room w/ a bunch of middle aged guys listening to a poor demo! Same with the Sony DVD demo although to me there SACD demo was good (minus those Sony speakers!) Anyone visit the Nordost room. Horrible sound, but a very entertaining representative (Lars, I believe) All in all it wasa good show minus the Saturday elevator situation. Sunday was much better! |
Joe, (and other attendees,) how many rooms were acoustically treated? Other than obvious synergy problems, what do you think the common mistakes were from room to room? What would you have loved to have told them to make it better, if you were their consultant for the show?
Charlie |
The Dynaudio room was the first I walked into (Guys, could you put some serious woofers in those tall speakers?). To Talon, did you break-in those speakers before you brought 'em to the show? To Linn, all that square footage and so many of us wanting to be impressed--Begin by turning down the volume, okay? And for most every display, how 'bout a couple Tube Traps (or other acoustical treatments)--put them in the corners and forget about them. We attendees will walk away more impressed and less fatigued. And... Congrats to MBL for a big system that sounded great in a small room... and no doubt sounds even better in big room. Thanks to Sanibel Sound for providing clean sound and a respite from the chaos of most other listening rooms. My favorite: Tenor Audio cloistered up there on the tenth floor with those OTL (tube) monoblocks--warm sound and as pretty as anything there. |
Hi Joe; Thanks to you and others for reports on the NY show. It's interesting to note how many exhibits you thought were somewhere between poor and not very good. We wouldn't have heard that kind of candidness from Reps. of the big magazines. Do you think that with more time and maybe better conditions, good quality music could have been coaxed from some of those systems?
Of course, I was especially pleased to see that you thought the Vandersteen 5s were sounding excellent, and others, eg Rayhall generally liked them too. It seems I ordered a pair of 5s a couple weeks ago, and now have a 5-6 month wait-- the wait is going to be painful-- but hey, I'm an audiophile and probably need the pain. Cheers. Craig |
Trelja - sterling effort! And, what refreshing honesty. I did not attend this show but did attend CES 2001 and the Montreal show. I can therefore appreciate your disappointment. At both of these, there was a vanishingly small number of truly memorable systems. The majority of "high visibility" products (you know these from their ads in the journals), are poor-sounding (for the price). Their inflated reputation is largely instigated and abetted by a highly-corrupt audio-press. Regrettably, this hobby has suffered immeasurably from greed and mercenary practices. One comes to appreciate the extent of this when attending audio-shows with room-after-room of ho-hum (but embarrassingly pricey) systems/components. And, of course, there is the never-ending merry-go-round of buying and selling of this mostly-mediocre gear. Very depressing, isn't it?. This industry sorely needs a good enema. |
Trelja, while i did not go out to the show, i too agree with your assessment of the Legend gear. I heard their demo hear at the Stereophile show in 1999 and it was by far one of the best at the show. Even though their little stand mounted monitors did lack deep bass, everything else sounded phenomenal to say the least.
This in itself demonstrates that it IS possible to get good sound at a show IF you know what your doing. I guess that most dealer rep's, manufacturer's and dealer's don't have a CLUE about setting up gear. Otherwise, they wouldn't get the typically poor results that they do.
In terms of your comments about the Talon's, if one has seen the actual frequency response on these speakers, you would know why Trelja said what he did. Even though they are not cheap by ANY means, they display the same non-linearities as a pair of Bose 301's !!!! I am DEAD serious and NOT joking. NO bass below 100 Hz at all with a big peak slightly above that. It's no wonder they make subwoofers. Their "flagship" model doesn't even really have a "woofer" in it as we think. Especially at that price !!!
Were the horn speakers that were set up with the Atma-sphere's Klassic Audio Reproductions ( K.A.R's ) ???? If so, i've heard the combo before and it is capable of STUNNINGLY good sound. Keep in mind that these are ported designs using large woofers. As the regulars here know, i am no fan of ported speakers as a general rule and i thought that they did quite well together. So did the 20 or so people that gave this combo a STANDING OVATION at Stereophile 1999. How many DEMO's have you ever seen that happen at ????
Linn typically has HORRIBLE sound at shows. This show was probably no different. WAY too much blathering about how great the products are and NOTHING to back up the "bigmouthing". Sean
> |
Well I got to agree with Plato on this one. The most musicall sound was coming from MBL room.
At half price of HP's Reference room it was a steal.
I would like to add that Mr. Wolfgang Meltzky of MBL has choosen the best by far repertoir to demo his awesome components. Thank you Wolfgang for you hospitality !
On the other side of the show worst sound to me was Linn system at $ 140,000 it was pure disgrace and Ivor himself was there listening to it. I can't just believe it
I hoped very much to hear new Jeff Rowland stuff but no cigar. And yes Trelja TOO MANY PEOPLE. ELEVATORS WERE PACKED!!! NON STOP :-) |
Plato, thank you for jarring my memory about some more of the rooms I was impressed with. The Legend Audio sound was all that has been stated above. It's true, deep bass was lacking, but the overall system sound was better than many at the show. This is now the second time I have heard their amplifiers. All I can say about the Class C Stereophile rating is, BS! Amps like Arcam, Bryston, Conrad Johnson, Rega, and VTL are certainly no better(not to take away from them), and all Class B. I would not hesitate to buy an amp from them. And this is coming from a guy who doesn't like 6550s. Wonder how great these babies would sound with some KT88s. Roman Audio speakers took me by suprise. Never heard of them before. Hope to hear more... Eggleston was also very good. This is one speaker company that sweats the details, and it shows. I mean the theory, practice, design, and construction. While others are fancier on the outside, Eggleston seems to first get the inside of the speaker right. The Japanese amplifier(Nori?) was certainly impressive looking(they weren't playing, just showing). Can't say I would buy them, but they looked interesting. Solid state I liked(coming from a tube guy): Musical Fidelity, SimAudio, and Classe(usually am underwhelmed by their stuff). I suggest that next time we attend one of these shows, we do it as a group. Not so much in terms of going to see things together, but presenting ourselves as such. Trying to make our presence seen, heard, and felt. We can even cover it in better fashion than just my little untidy thread. |
