Tracking error or ??

Both channels?  Please identify the tonearm.

Actually in the right channel. Tonearm is a well tempered ‘black’ arm.

Right is the outside of the groove. Could be not quite enough anti-skate. Skating forces increase with modulation. The most highly modulated sections cause more skating force drawing the arm more to the inside losing contact with the outside thus causing breakup. 

Skating also increases with VTF. If the breakup was both channels - and if you have room to increase- then VTF might help. But since it is only the outside (R) channel it is less likely to help and might possibly make it even worse. For sure you don't want more than whatever is the cart spec.

What MC said, but is 1,8gr out of specs?

In a response the OP did incriminate the R channel. Increase AS is a good idea IMO.

Millercarbon is correct as lewm has indicated. 

I hate to be a sow's a-s but that is not a good arm for a Lyra and I think you should replace it when you get the opportunity. If you do not want to believe me just ask Johnathan Carr. He is a very up front guy and frequently visits this forum. In ways the Well Tempered arm is worse than a uni pivot arm.  

@mijostyn  Interesting that you believe the WTA is not a good arm. Yes, it does have characteristics of a uni pivot, but it also has zero bearing noise or 'pivot chatter'. I do think that there are certainly better arms out there, but would like to know why you think the 'WTA' arm is not good--and why you think it is worse than a uni pivot? 
My version is the 'black' arm with the Van Den Hul internal cabling.
Meanwhile, i am going to adjust the AS. 

@daveyf , don't over think this, if it has just shown this on one recording and you have had good success other wise I would not be inclined to do any adjusting other than normal periodic adjustments as time wears on. FWIW I have enjoyed a few Lyra carts on uni pivot arms and still do. Enjoy the music

Dear @daveyf  : ""   Lyra recommends an exact 1.8 grams  ""

Not really, JC spec is exactly 1.72 grs. :


https://lyraanalog.com/kleos.html


   I think that you need to reset/check the overall cartridge/tonearms set up along the VTF spec, maximum VTF is 1.75 grms.

Btw, I can't know the effect over time in the cartridge suspension using 1.8 instead 1.72 . It could be a good idea to send an email to JC.


Regards and enjopy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

DaveyF, pivot "chatter" is an illusion created by people who are trying to make excuses for unipivot arms. Bearings in proper adjustment are preloaded. There is no clearance at all and no room for "chatter" 
The Well Tempered arm is an interesting design, clever to a degree but like the unipivot basically flawed. A proper pivoted arm has two degrees of freedom vertical and horizontal. A unipivot has 3 degrees as it is free in torsion. The Well Tempered arm has 4 degrees as it adds torsion and longitudinal motion. Each free degree has a resonance associated with it.
The Well Tempered arm tries to deal with this by adding mass and fluid damping. These are crutches for flawed design. A properly matched cartridge tonearm pair should never require damping or added mass which adds inertia. It takes energy to move a tonearm through damping. It is like adding more friction and energy to overcome inertia. This energy comes from the record groove and can be seen on an oscilloscope as unnecessary cantilever motion. The cantilever moves because the tonearm does not, producing low frequency garbage, distorting the frequencies above. In really bad set ups you can hear it as a warble.

@tooblue, karl_desch is moving from a unipivot to a two axis arm with a Lyra cartridge. Follow what he has to say about it. it. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/kuzma-4points-and-lyra-carts

@mijostyn, thanks for the lead but will just spend that time listening to a very good resolving system and then thank my keen ears for leading me there. Enjoy the music

@mijostyn  I'm not following you with regards to your point about the WTA having added mass?The WTA is one of the lightest tonearms around, so light that I can use it with no issues even on my LP12, without disturbing its ultra sensitive suspension. I also don't follow you with your point about the longitudinal resonance...how is this? 

I do agree that the WTA has a lot of design issues, along with its brilliance. One of my biggest issues with it is that none of the adjustments are that precise, along with a propensity for these adjustments to not stay through time. The azimuth adjustment is a good example of this. OTOH, the fact that the arm is well damped does help with a number of cartridges that put a lot of energy into the arm, ala the Lyra's. Lastly, isn't the Kuzma 4 point still basically a uni pivot design?

to the OP, while i have a Lyra on a Triplaner, i have heard some fantastic music come from systems using the WTL tables and arms, notably the Amadeus .Did your tweak solve the issue ?

Dear @daveyf  : "     isn't the Kuzma 4 point still basically a uni pivot design? "


Not really, this is what you can read in the Kuzma site


"""  Differs from other tonearms by introducing several new and unique features. The new zero-play bearing is configured on 4 points. The 4POINT tonearm has an effective length of 280mm (11-inch), a very precise VTA adjustment facility and fits our standard mount with a 212mm   pivot-to-spindle distance. The heart of this new design is the unique 4-point bearing. Two points (which are similar to a uni-pivot bearing) allow and control vertical movements of the tonearm. The other set of two pointed bearings allow and control horizontal (lateral) movements of the tonearm. All four points of the bearing have minimal friction and zero-play in all planes of movement, thus ensuring that the cartridge platform and the cartridge itself follow the grooves of an LP with extremely low friction and minimal vibrations. """

R.

@tomic601  Thanks for the post. I haven't had a chance to try the table yet, but I have increased the AS a little. There is no exactitude to the arm adjustments, so it is probably a little bit of trial and error. I do question whether Mijostyn's point about the tonearm not being a great match for the Lyra is correct. He may have a point, but the SQ is extremely good on most LP's. Your Triplanar is a superb arm, just wish it could work on an LP12! 

@rauliruegas  While I know that the 4 Point is not exactly a uni pivot, and does attempt to do away with the issue of 'rotating on the point' that afflicts the true uni pivot design, I think it has much more in common with a uni pivot than a gimbal design. 

Well you can always wear the Kleos out and go another route on the replacement…

best of wishes for musical happiness 

@tomic601  Wearing out the Kleos is not really part of my plan. I have considered jumping ship on the Linn, simply due to its severely hobbled tonearm scenario, but i still like the basic platform. ( plus, with the new Karousel bearing, it sounds better than ever!) There is a new Naim Aro on the market, this with their new table combo. I am hoping that Naim will consider selling the Aro separately. Otherwise, it is the old war horse---Ekos SE/1

I had similar problem on one of my LP, A long long time by Linda Ronstadt, I play it with different table, same problem, found out the problem is a worn out track...

There is a new Naim Aro on the market, this with their new table combo. I am hoping that Naim will consider selling the Aro separately. Otherwise, it is the old war horse---Ekos SE/1

Why not try an Audio Origami PU7? It is half the cost of a new Ekos SE and a natural match for an LP12. I preferred mine to a Kuzma 4 Point and also like it better than the Ekos SE I had on an LP12 years ago.

@imhififan   A worn out track would definitely be a culprit, but I think in my case this is not the situation. I have heard a very small amount of distortion on a few other highly dynamic and highly modulated tracks. Always in the right channel, which would certainly seem to indicate that AS is an issue....which I had not thought of before. Problem is that if the track is played back with distortion, I am concerned that the result will also be a worn groove. Kind of like which comes first...the chicken or the egg. In my case, I think the cartridge is the culprit...but we shall see.

@rossb   I think that is a good suggestion. I would like to have an arm with more adjustment than the PU7, but I would certainly not discount the PU7. Did you have the Kuzma 4 point 9? If so, was it on the LP12?

@daveyf If you’re considering an arm
replacement keep the AMG 9W2 9" tonearm in mind. Available with Linn geometry it would be a drop in unless the Keel is utilized with it’s specific collar mount. Their overall lightweight, ultimate rigidity & adjustability make them an easy recommendation for a softly sprung ‘table. I use one on my Swiss built TD-150 with great results.

I’ve experienced stellar performance from WT setups regardless of them being less than perfect, and yes maybe the Kleos isn’t the best choice for it. Dynavector seems to be the fit.

While A/S is an obvious consideration for getting your Kleos to be intimate with the outer groove wall, also consider azimuth as the two are closely related.

It was also be advisable to confirm your recently jack-hammered Way out West LP is OK by tracking that passage with another pickup or two.

@boothroyd Some good suggestions there. This is probably a time when it would pay to have two turntable set ups. 

Did you have the Kuzma 4 point 9? If so, was it on the LP12?

I had both the 4 Point 9 and the 11 inch 4 Point. I preferred the standard 11 inch. Neither were on the LP12, but a Kuzma Stabi Reference. The Ekos SE was on the LP12. The PU7 was also on the Kuzma, and the PTP Solid 9 which replaced it. The PU7 sounded better than the 4 Point on the Kuzma turntable.

I'm not sure what you mean by "more adjustment" in relation to the PU7. It doesn't have the VTA tower of the 4 Point but every parameter is certainly adjustable and it sounds superb.

It was also be advisable to confirm your recently jack-hammered Way out West LP is OK by tracking that passage with another pickup or two.

I like this idea above from @boothroyd. Do you have any local audio buddies with vinyl rigs that you could play that same passage to see if it mistracks on their set up?

If it’s not an A/S issue, could it possibly just be a bad vinyl pressing? It seems as though you do not have this issue on the majority of your other LP’s.

As a side note.... I have the original Naim ARO on my LP12 and absolutely love it!  I'm happy to see that Naim is resurrecting this great arm.

Best wishes,
Don

@daveyf I just got through listening to the second side of Way Out West with my Lyra Kleos SL and heard no distortion as what you're describing. If the arm and cartridge sounds good with everything else it's very likely just a bad/worn pressing, vinyl is an imperfect medium.
Sometimes we are too quick to replace tonearm, cartridge, etc., work on your settings, something might be a little off and needing a little more attention.  

@scar972   I doubt it is the record. The other records i played that night were all fine, but this LP has more dynamics and modulations in the groove than those. While the record could be damaged now, I don't think it was before I played it that night. It is certainly a record that i have played before in the past, with my prior Benz Ruby 2 with no issues. However, the Lyra requires a far more precise set up than the Benz...and is a lot less forgiving than that cartridge. 
I will try and confirm how the record is with another a'phile friends set up, unfortunately with Covid, there still seems to be some hesitancy to meet others ( not so much from me). We shall see. 
I will report back once I have played some more vinyl, since I have now slightly increased my A/S. Hopefully this is the answer and my LP is fine ( the pressing is an AP limited edition ( awesome sounding LP)--so I do not want to have to replace it!)

Dear @daveyf  : """  I have heard a very small amount of distortion on a few other highly dynamic and highly modulated tracks. Always in the right channel, which would certainly seem to indicate that AS is an issue. """

I own the Kleos and is really good tracker with and with out A/S. Its compliance is almost high compliance at around 18cu-19cu. It rides with out true problem the whole Telarc 1812.

So if the Kleos is in good operation condition specially at the stylus tip and suspension then the problem is else where and could be the tonearm and TT. The LP it's not due that you experienced that trouble in other LPs.

Btw, the Aro is an unipivot and not a good tonearm for any cartridge. Please read again what mijos posted. 
Now, if you are in love with this Naim is up to you.

R.

@rauliruegas  Raul, I am not considering the original Naim Aro, I am interested in the new Naim Aro that has just been released on the Solstice table. I have no idea if this arm will be available separately, but if it is, then I think it could be a nice option.

Dear @rauliruegas, I have to take issue with you your comment....

"Btw, the Aro is an unipivot and not a good tonearm for any cartridge"

Have you ever listened to the Naim Aro?  Have you ever compared it to other arms on the same table with the same cartridge?

Well, I have.  I have compared the Aro to Linn's Ittok and the Ekos on the LP12 with the same Benz Wood Bodied moving coil cartridge in the same system and have found the musical reproduction to be quite superior to that of the two Linn arms.

To blatantly declare the Naim Aro as being a "not good tonearm for any cartridge" simply based on the fact that it is a unipivot design, especially if you have never spent any time with this arm, I would consider this statement to be very short sighted and a very poor comment to be spreading on the internet.

There are many, many people who happen to love how the ARO performs on their LP12's throughout Europe as well as the USA.  But sadly, according to your statement, I must assume we all must have tin ears.

Best wishes,
Don

IMO Any arm will have its pluses and minuses, including the Aro. Question is whether it works well on the table that one is planning on mounting it and with the cartridge that one utilizes. The LP12 is a severely limited platform for mounting after market arms, simply because its spring suspension really cannot accommodate just about all top flite arms. ( Due to the severe weight limitations that this suspension dictates). I strongly suspect that Raul is in fact correct. Hypothetically, the Aro if it could be directly compared to arms like the Basis Super Arms or the SAT’s or the Triplanar’s would come off in a very poor way. None of these arms work on the LP12. The Aro does. The question which I am contemplating is whether the excellent LP12 platform is worth sticking with given the arm scenario. Maybe it would be better to go to another table that allows for far superior arms to be mounted, albeit with possibly less general ability than the LP12??

I absolutely agree.... you have to consider the table, arm and cartridge as a complete system.  An arm and cartridge can certainly sound better or worse on one table vs another.  But, if you compare my nicely set up LP12/ARO/Benz S-Class Zebra Wood Ruby to a different table/arm/cartridge of your choice you may find that they both are capable of reproducing music in a very pleasing and satisfying manner.  Will they differ in some aspects?  Sure.  Some people prefer... belt, direct drive, idlers.... some people prefer high mass, others suspended designs, etc.  My point is compare the table/arm/cartridge as a complete system.

As I had said... I compared these arms (the Linn Ittok / Ekos & ARO) on the "LP12". I, and many others are of the opinion that the ARO sounds superb on the LP12.

How does the ARO sound on other tables, I have no idea as I have not tried it on other tables.  However, as much as I love my ARO on my LP12, I would not and did not say that the ARO would outperform other arms on other tables.

My point of contention is that Raul blatently stated that the ARO "is not a good tonearm for any cartridge" period... as if that is 100% fact, or the Bible's Truth.  

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and I realize everyone has the capacity to "hear" things differently and have their own sonic preferences.  But to "my" ears and in my humble opinion, the Aro presents music in a natural and organic way. Very much in the same manner that I hear when I perform in live acoustic events; both with my Montagnana cello in classical settings and my trombones in various jazz venues.  Nothing sticks out or sounds out of proportion... it's very evenly balanced.  It captures the dynamics, the full beautiful tones and harmonics, the timing of the music and presents it all in a very believable way.

In any case... I truly hope you will be able to sort out the periodic right channel distortion.  Please report back when you have it figured out as it may be helpful for others on the forum as well.

Wishing you all the very best!
Don

Dear @daveyf : "" Maybe it would be better to go to another table that allows for far superior arms to be mounted..."""

That could be your best and common sense alternative and you have down thre the Rega RP10 that comes with an excellent tonearm.

In the STHP Fremer review of the SAT XD-1 TT with SAT tonearm ( that set you back ober 180K when the Rega goes for around 6K. ) you can read this:

"" The XD1 shares some sonic characteristics with Rega’s revolutionary RP10 turntable: ultrafast, clean transients throughout the audible frequency range; tight, fast bass; revealing midrange transparency; and overall sonic stability and focus. ""

@no_regrets I really respect your subjective opinion but exist to many facts/evidences not only in this thread but in several threads where the subject was analized in deep and those facts/objective ( not what you or me or asome one else likes. ) say that unipivots tonearms is the worst kind of design for any cartridge. Forgeret what you like because this is not the issue.

Now every one has its own level of priorities MUSIC/sound system quality reproduction. Some of us are way demanding that other gentlemans.

R.

@rauliruegas  Thanks Raul. I'm not jumping ship on a Linn Klimax for a Rega 10 ( even though this is a good table). BTW, please do check your spelling in your last post...;0)

If i move on from the Linn, it would be to a Basis or maybe a TW. Both of these offer platforms that I think work well with a variety of tonearms, although the Basis arms are very good. I have friends who own these tables and as such, I think these tables are the upgrade route. 

One thing that i have noticed is a lot of vinyl pressings can have distortion on highly modulated peaks that are not there on others especially at the end of the record side.

@daveyf , sorry to be so slow getting back, That bell hanging down from the pivot is added mass. It is an attempt to lower the resonance point in the various degrees of movement. The problem is that no filter is brick wall. Then to minimize the ringing and amplitude of the resonance the bell hangs in a pool of damping fluid. The wand itself is flimsy. We know from history now that wand stiffness is an important issue. Wands with a wider diameter are stiffer. Arm tubes that also change diameter are a further improvement.
The longitudinal axis is the one in which the arm moves forward and backward along the long axis of the wand. Even a unipivot arm does not do this. A cartridge has to be held rigidly in all directions save two. This is the very basic requirement for a tonearm. I do not like Schroder's reference arm for the same reason. But it was developed early in his career and he has since made up for it with the CB, LT and apparently the soon to be released Soundsmith Alto arm. 
If you go for a Basis try to find a Debut Vacuum. The original suspension was the best one but it was a more complicated and expensive turntable to build. It seems after AJ died Basis has taken a step backwards. AJ lived right around the corner from me. AJ and David Fletcher were good friends. David encouraged AJ to use his suspension design. AJ was a cost no option guy and David wanted to make a turntable for the masses. David also talked AJ into adding vacuum clamping. The Debut Vacuum IMHO is AJ's finest hour. 

@mijostyn   Thanks for your explanation. I was aware that the arm potentially can move in the longitudinal plane, although I have never heard any issue with this..and frankly fail to see what would cause it to do this? An electrical engineering friend demonstrated this movement to me when the arm was off the table, but also could not see this as occurring under real life circumstances. Interesting thoughts on the Basis Debut model, I'm not sure why you would state that Basis has taken a step backwards after AJ's death? Their current production, including the uber 'Transcendence' is supposed to be AJ's best work. ( AFAIK, there have been no new designs since AJ's passing).

@speakermaster:  Regarding ..."the vinyl pressings can have distortion on highly modulated peaks that are not there on others especially at the end of the record side."

I find this interesting and would like to learn more about this.  Out of curiosity, could you share which cartridge and tonearm you are using when this happens?

I ask because I wonder if when this happens if it has anything to do with which type of stylus profile the cartridge has, or if it has something to do with the type of tonearm... gimbal or unipivot, etc.

When this happens... is the distortion just in the right channel or is it in both channels equally?

I wonder if it is groove wear or does it happen on brand new vinyl as well?

Best wishes,
Don

@daveyf, The problem is that friction pulling the tonearm along it's long axis is not constant but varies depending on groove velocity (modulation). Thus there is going to be a tendency for the arm to move in that direction. How much it does would depend on VTF, the mass of the cartridge and the velocity. Does it move at all? I do not know. But it can if enough force is applied and that is enough for me. 
I talked with AJ on several occasions. In his mind the hanging suspension was vastly superior. You see this in the Work of Art and Inspiration turntables. I have no idea what happened with the Transcendence. It is not in keeping with AJ's design philosophy in a number of ways. He also would never have stuck his name on the turntable. https://robbreport.com/gear/audio/slideshow/10-design-minded-turntables-clearaudio-vpi-eg17/aj-conti...

@mijostyn  I think you must be confused. I believe that AJ considered the Transcendence as his Magnum Opus!  If you ever get a chance to hear this turntable, i believe you will understand why.

As to the WTA, I have heard absolutely no issues with the arm whatsoever in regards to its ability ( or lack thereof) to move in the longitudinal axis. The forces required to make it do so just don't seem to be applicable to the design. 

I think the under biasing idea is the answer but check that the cantilever is still in line. I had a similar symptom after a year of heavy lockdown use and found the cantilever was off skewed towards the outside of the disc even when not playing, though this was only visible with the cartridge, an SPU Royal N, removed from the arm.
Nice to see a WT arm on a Linn by the way. I came close to buying a Versalex but it’s feet were a bit too close to the edge of my Fraim.

@yeti42   The Kleos has a cantilever that can easily be impacted by wrong A-S. I have to take a listen to the modification that I did to the A-S tonight, but what i added was a very small amount, as too much and the cantilever will skew. The WT arm is a good one, however, I think it is the weak link in my system. Problem is that the LP12 is very limited as to what arm will work and so far none of the choices are that great.

If the black is anything like the LTD it lacks a bit of fine adjustment for VTA and VTF but you might find it harder to replace than you expect. After hearing one my Aro sounded a bit metallic. Of the cartridges I’ve heard on the LTD the top Dynavector was magical, the XX2 rather ordinary, as was the Benz LP and I couldn’t get my Transfiguration Proteus to sing on it but an EMT JSD5 and an Audionote (UK) io1 both hit the spot. I’ve never heard a Lyra on one.

The audio origami unipivot is now sold as the Roksan Sara, I’ve not heard it but it looks very Aro like, the Tigerpaw Javalin is even closer but only a few were made before ill health ended production. 

@yeti42   Thanks. I agree the WTA is difficult to replace. I have listened to a number of tonearms on the LP12, including the original Aro, the Ekos SE-1, and a few SME's. None were clearly superior to the WTA in most areas, and a few just didn't sound right at all. The WTA 'Black' is like you describe, lacking in fine adjustment, but it is also a very forgiving arm and works quite well with my Lyra. The new Aro may be a contender, if it is sold separately? 

As an owner of a Well Tempered Vesalex with an LTD arm, I can attest to its tracking ability... at least with a Lyra Kleo or Kiseki PH cartidge. I would ignore the critics who like to point out "flaws" in a design and most likely have never even taken the time to listen to a WT arm. I guess it's just easier to do that.

The overloading that you are detecting might be due to your phono stage or you might need to increase the tracking force.

@grk   I did as suggested above and increased the Anti Skate a little. This seems to have solved the problem, although I still need to listen further to some of the more 'dynamic' passages. 
Agreed, there are always folks who will naysay any product, even with absolutely zero knowledge or experience with it. Not sure why this is a thing? 

It just is. Just like I knew it was anti-skating, others know its something they know nothing about. One of the mysteries of the universe. 

Davyf, AJ considered The Work of Art to be his magnum opus and I have heard one. AJ tried to get me to buy it!
Now, as for your complete and total misunderstanding of the Kuzma 4 Point arm. They are in no way, shape or form similar to a unipivot. The Kuzma uses needle bearings, four of them that produce a solid low friction 2 axis bearing system. The vertical bearing is exactly like what Origin Live does in its better arms. It is the horizontal bearing that is special. The vertical bearing platform hangs from needle #3 which engages the top of the center post. Then in front of the post is a slot that engages needle #4. Since the weight of the tonearm engages the platform in front of the post needle #4 is force back into that slot. Needle #4 prevents any torsional instability. I can only move through an arc of 70 degrees which is more than enough to play a record. There are breakdown pictures of the 4 point bearing if you are having trouble envisioning it. It is not easy to describe. I have installed 4 Point 9's on two Sotas with excellent results and it will do great on an LP 12. I would be very surprised if you did not immediately notice an improvement. 

grk, there's that listening thing again. You can not trust any single individual's listening skills. Regardless of the way you think that arm sounds it is a more defective design than even air bearing straight line trackers. Forget about what your ears are telling you. Get a better arm and they will be even happier. Tonearms are very simple devices. There job is to hold the cartridge perfectly rigidly except in two directions, up and down, side to side. If it does not it is automatically disqualified from being a decent tonearm. Even the possibility of movement in another direction is not acceptable. After this are the finer points of good tonearm design, geometry, bearing design, anti skating, resonance characteristics and such. There is certainly room for creativity and original thinking. Both Frank Kuzma and Frank Schroder are great examples and both have designed some klunkers. 

Never be ashamed of buying a bad piece of equipment. I have had my fair share. That is how you learn. I was lucky early on getting a lot of exposure working in the business. But, I let myself get waltzed into some pretty stupid stuff the highlight of which was a tonearm. The Transcriptors Vestigial Tonearm a very strong contender for the worst tonearm ever made.