Totem Acoustic Forest Signatures

I'm glad to see this thread resurrected.  As the owner of NON-Signature Forests, I've been very interested in the experience of Signature owners.  Appreciate the 2018 comments from dave_b and nutty.  Hopefully more will follow.

Ha!  You had me going there, dave_b.

What did you miss most about the Sigs?  

I'd be curious as well about equipment owners use with the Signatures.  I see your system is listed.  Is your Krell an integrated?

Best regards

Comments in the discussion at the link below might be of interest. Would have been helpful to have the "big watts for Forests" viewpoint better represented in it.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/which-watts-are-the-right-watts-in-ss-amps/post?highlight=tot...

Nutty certainly "may" re the Taranis (400 wpc 8 ohms/600 wpc 4 ohms). It works very well with the Forests. I’ve used 6 different amps with the Forests (3 tube-based). The Taranis pairing is a favorite. Leads me to chuckle when I read how miserable Class D must sound.

Just to play provocateur for a bit, however, the Forests also sound very good with a 20 wpc First Watt F7 (30 wpc at 4 ohms). Different sound than generated with the Taranis...a bit mellower (Class A), not as incisive. Strain-free peaks in the low 90 db range at the listening position some 10 feet on the diagonal from the speakers. Could go louder but haven’t tried. Phenomenal bass...more than from the Taranis. Gain on subs has to be reduced when the F7’s in use (and no, I don’t hear a loss of bass control associated with the "more bass"). All this a function of very accommodating speaker design as well as Nelson Pass’ amp design genius, no doubt. Expect the same would apply to pairing with the Signatures.

The take away for Forests in my experience then: more (SS) watts are preferred as the general rule but there can be notable exceptions.

bg3584

As the "poor country mouse " owner of NON-Signature Forests, I’ll venture to add my comment to those of dave and Nutty re suitability of your NAD C388 for driving any version of the Forests. At 150 wpc it should be more than adequate power-wise. If you have concerns, read comments at the link I posted earlier in this thread.

I started out with a 60 wpc tube integrated when I first got the Forests. That was 11 years ago. Amps have been upgraded over the years. The Forests stayed. They respond very well to better source and amplification. Even now, I don’t think the system is at a point where the Forests are the limiting factor in the quality of music produced by the system. I expect this "scalability" will apply even more so to Signatures.
The Forests are like a Swiss Army knife in terms of versatility. There’s no musical genre they DON’T sound great with (assuming the recording quality is okay to begin with). They’ll be fine for HT audio. You might even find that sub has to be dialed back.

Wattage is a helpful specification to look at when considering amps for use with Forests and pursuit of high watts is certainly the more commonly chosen route BUT that’s not to say they won’t sound good with less than mega-watt amplifiers. Case in point, the very very good results I’m getting driving the Forests with a 20 wpc Nelson Pass designed First Watt F7. Repeating this only so you aren’t put off pursuing the Forests because you think you don’t have adequate amplification right now.

Again, 150 wpc from your NAD should be more than sufficient (assuming you don’t listen at max dB (110 IIRC) in a large room). Of course, simple wpc is not the only factor that’s going to determine the happiness of the marriage. I’d certainly encourage you to take your amp and visit a Totem dealer. Even if they don’t have Forests, see if you can get a listen to Hawks driven by it. The Hawks are similar (not identical) to the Forests being a 2 way and having that wonderful Totem sound. They are a slightly tougher load (6 ohm vs 8 nominal impedance). If your amp works with Hawks and you like the sound, I’m pretty certain you will love the sound with the Forests. You might also consider contacting David Serota of David Lewis Audio and see if he can arrange an in home audition for you. I’ve not dealt with him but Nutty has and might be willing to comment further about that.

Hello scthom -
What speaker cable and interconnects are you using with the Hegel H160? Sources??

I’ve had my Forests for a similar length of time as you and have used half a dozen different amps with them over those years. Three of those amps make up the current "fleet". One is a Hegel H200 (200 wpc). I posted comments about Forests and power earlier in this thread. I could try to describe how the sound when driven by the 400 wpc Taranis differs from that with the Hegel (the Hegel is definitely warmer) but power is only a part of that story. One amp is Class A/B the other Class D. Excellent sound with the 20 wpc First Watt F7 underscores that there is something besides power at work shaping the sound.

All that as preamble to say, before you opt for more power - which might or might not get you where you want to go (depends in part on how the amp is voiced) - consider experimenting with the overall elevation and/or rake of the Forests. For a simple rake adjustment just remove the rear "balls" but leave the front one in place. I also found Paul Laudati’s Clear Day Double Shotgun speaker cable provided a big step change over what I’d been using (Morrow Audio SP4) in resolution and clarity while fleshing out the sound in a marked way. Currently using Cardas Parsec cabling.

I’m not trying to get into a dispute with owners who hold that more power is always the better option for the Forests. In general, I’d have to agree with that (the F7 being the exception to the rule, I suppose). Cleaner sound, deeper and better-controlled bass, improved image definition, greater clarity (the usual suspects) is what I heard moving away from 60-80 wpc tube amps to the current gear. But was the improvement simply a function of more watts or also the difference between tubes and SS? Worth noting I run all 3 amps (even the Hegel) with a 6SN7 tube pre-amp. Good luck in your pursuit.

Hello again scthom - 
Just to be clear, the Parsecs were only mentioned by way of full disclosure.  They might or might not contribute to the sound you are looking for.  They are part of the new "generation" of Cardas wire...not as warm - a little more neutral - than "vintage" Cardas wire but still very much a Cardas house sound (or so i think).  

Paul Laudati's Clear Day Double Shotgun (all silver) speaker cable was what I wanted to suggest.  Paul did offer a 30 day in-home/money back trial on them.  I write "did" because he has recently experienced some very serious health issues.  I don't know if he's back making cables.  If not, but you can find some of his used, well worth trying out.  

Taking advantage of borrowing from The Cable Co. is definitely a good way to go.  If you call, the sales guy can consult their database (customer derived info) and make recommendations for you to try based on your gear, budget and sound preference.  Maybe the newer Black Mesh Oval 9 is something to try out?  I've not heard Analysis Plus wire at all but they enjoy a good reputation.

One thing you can try right now (assuming you are using a single run of cable with jumpers and the Forests aren't bi-wired) is use the Nordost diagonal speaker connection method.  That is, attach Red (+) to the low frequency + post and Black (-) to the upper frequency - post.  See if you hear any increase in upper frequency information using this approach.  [Just fyi, Audioquest recommends the opposite when single-wiring bi-wireable speakers...Red to upper + post; Black to lower - post.]
If you're interested, I should be able to find a link(s) to relevant info.  

Removing the rear balls from the Totem claws would be another easy thing to try.  See if it gets you more detail.  

Good luck.

Let me add mine to dave_b's.  Hope you are happy with them.  Just be patient during break in.  Follow Totem's guidance on this.  Don't over drive them.  The bass will be MIA for a good while.  But is one of their strong points when they are fully broken in.  

I've had a pair of Forests for over 10 years.  Not tired of them yet.  They scale well, which is to say upgrade electronics and cabling...they'll reflect those improvements.  

As far as speaker cable, your budget will go furthest with used.  Check out US Audio Mart.  Brand-wise, in addition to Signal Cable, Blue Jeans Cable is often cited as a good starting point (I've not used it).  Other high value brands to consider:  Clear Day Audio, Audio Art, & Virtue Audio.  Check out Stereo Mojo for other recommendations.

http://www.stereomojo.com/Stereo%20for%20Cheap%20Bastards/StereoforCheapBastards.htm

Likewise, @strat1117 ... welcome.  Enjoyed reading your comments about the Sigs.  Many of your comments (e.g., audibility of upstream changes) apply to the non-Sig Forests as well.  

Chiming in now in response to Nutty's recommendation of Black Light Syndrome.  I agree it is a very well recorded rock album.  Standout tracks musically and sonically for me:  Duende & Book of Hours.   Definitely worth a listen.  BLS as well as Dangerous Situation (same artists) are both on Spotify.  

Saluti, Lampone. Ho provato a tradurre la tua nota del 1 Dicembre usando Google Traduttore. Spero sia comprensibile. Possiedo solo le Foreste originali. Impossibile commentare il valore del costo maggiore per le Signature. Forse qualcun altro può.

Using Google Translate. Lampone’s Dec 1 posting (Italian to English):

"Thank you for posting! I have the Forest standard and I would like to go to the Signature ... The price difference is 2500 € ... Are the Signature so superior .... ??? Greetings to everyone! Ciao"

My response to Lampone...
Greetings, Lampone. I tried to translate your December 1 note using Google Translate. I hope it’s understandable. I own only the original Forests. Can not comment on the higher cost value for Signature. Maybe someone else can.

Ciao di nuovo, Lampone. La mia amica Nutty (proprietaria di Forest Signatures) ha qualche input per te. Sottolinea che nessuno può rispondere per un altro se vale il prezzo più alto per le Signature. Solo le tue orecchie e la tua economia personale possono affrontarlo. Nutty raccomanda in primo luogo di considerare se quei soldi extra sarebbero spesi meglio ottimizzando gli attrezzi che supportano le Forest standard. (So che le mie Forests rispondono sempre bene agli aggiornamenti nella catena di distribuzione che li alimenta). Se non disponi di dispositivi audio per spendere soldi, e se il tuo sistema sta estraendo tutte le Forest standard da dare, quindi considera l’upgrade dei tuoi altoparlanti alle Signature. Più hai ottimizzato il tuo sistema con le Forest standard, più beneficerai degli aggiornamenti trovati nelle delle Forest Signature.

Above as per Google translate of the following:
Hello again, Lampone. My friend Nutty (who owns Forest Signatures) has some input for you. He points out that no one can answer for another whether the higher price for Signatures is worth it. Only your ears and personal economy can address this. Nutty recommends first consider whether that extra money would be better spent optimizing the gear supporting your standard Forests. (I know my Forests always respond well to upgrades in the equpiment chain feeding them). If you have no audio gear to better spend money on, and if your system is extracting all the standard Forests have to give, then consider upgrading your speakers to the Signatures. The more you have optimized your system with standard Forests, the more you will benefit from the upgrades found in the Forest Signatures.