Hi. I am upgrading my 2-way speaker crossover (Opera Eric Linear) and want to replace all old resistors. I have already replaced capacitors with mundorf EVO Oil on tweeter and recoupled on woofer the bipolar Alcap also with small value Mundorf EVO Oil 0,47 mF. Standard ex works crossover has cement noname china made white resistors 5 Watt. I will replace them with Mills 12Watt. My question is - should I go for the same resistance value as the old resirstors in the signal path are? The old one in signal path ist 2,2 Om (2,3 on my ohm-Meter). Should I take the 2,2 Om or may be higher resistance - next step 2,5 or more 2,7 Om? What I will get with new Mills resistors? More resolution, transparency but may be also more accent on HF after dull sounding old no name resistors?
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Pathaudio the best balance but over $27 each
the Mills mt12 I never have foundthem lean sounding after 75 hours
with these Ar perry non. Inductive windings and special ceramic mix take time settling in .ido like the the fact silverplatedcaps, and leads Tinned Copper.sonicly
mundorf Supreme mresist use nickel over copper then rivet leads, a bit harsh
i had to cut off and resolder with Neotech wire much better balanced sound.
for the buck Millls mr12 a much trustedresistor at $4 ,if you can’t afford the
path Audio ,and don’t want to modify the legs on the big Mundorfs $16 each
same goes for the ohmlite gold with the rivets very good but get rid ofthe rivets.
to get the most out of them.
I have to say several tell me go with dpeciak brown ohmite ,carbon or micacomposit.
Even the Duelund Cast adds a bit of sonic signature. WILSON USE or did use caddock very neutral but lack a bit of nsturalness and depth . The path audio
Given the proper Loong 150 hour+ was told to me by the engineers as well as owned for max detail and soundstage width,depth. J documented and they were correct. The attached ground wire going to ground in crossover can make a difference ,all my capaciyors were measured and or outer foil documented
With cactus symbol ,or line in Jupiter Copper foil.
Other caps must be tested on a scope,or noise meter. And without question
Optimizes detail and super low noise floor. The Path resistors just complete
The build, natural musicality end result.
The best is a resistor bridge made with several of the .8 watt Vishay naked resistors to arrive at the required wattage... 3D with no noise.
Simply shocking, the improvement that is. $60 to $100 per required value. Another reason to go with a simple first order crossover, fewer total parts and fewer resistors. Tom
For small under 1watt the Vishay naked, are the most detail refined
resistors. ThePath Audio resistors in the 10 Watt range are top dog a slightly warm balance detail the best out there . Myself and others have measured them on average under 3/4 of 1% .nothing
cones close Duelund 5,and 10% add in a few % 8-13% . On average $28 each. The 1% ohmite Gold, and big 20watt Mundorf Supreme are very good Butthey gav3 soldered leggs cut them off as I did and replace withNeotech awg20 6-9 solid Copper poly r Teflon jacket high percent 4-5% Silver solder much better sounding for the soldered leggs are Nickel plated ,how stupid !!
If using the larger Ohmite Gold,or Mundorf Supreme larger resistors with soldered legs ,Cut them off just above the riveted legg. reason being the legs are dipped in Nickle, a horrible addition.i take awg18 Neotec Copper Wire 2inch ,flux and solder good 4-5% Silver content. Sounds noticeably cleaner after 24 hours or so of play
Path Audio resistors are the best Period just Hook them up .
myself and others checked tolerances on over 8 pair less then 3/4% of 1% on average min-max ,by far the best.Teir engineer said give them 200 hours to fully open up- refine.
If liquid metal really is the cats meow then it should work better for low level signals. From what I understand it is a tin/mercury slurry, both of which are not great conductors, or i should say, not the best conductors.Most importantly, it contains no mercury, it is a tri-eutectic that has no mercury.
And the updated medical research (more than a few studies done as of now) on these eutectic blends, this data says the toxicology is zero... none ever found.
My local dealer builds custom speakers. He is currently working on a pair of crossovers for me. It is taking some time to get the very specific parts he uses in his top-end crossovers, particularly the very old and HUGE caps. With my crossovers, he is having a hard time getting the specific vintage wire-wound resistors that he wants. As with all vintage parts, one often has to cull through many to find ones that perform according to specifications.
I just got some 5.1 ohm resistors to try on my tweeters in a pair of Wilson Duette. I actually preferred the lower cost Duelunds to the more expensive Duelunds but preferred the Path Audio to both of those.
I had never used the Path's before. At least in this application it was much more dynamic than the Duelunds. Still need to break-in but I am very pleased so far. I did not connect the ground lead either.
Glass is a dielectric when in solidus forum. When in liquid form, it is a conductor.
Which takes you (eventually) back 'round to this aspect of 'secretive alloys' (and their construction) for the vishay bulk foil resistors. Secretive for good reason. It's one hell of a data set to have in hand in the world of materials design. (to be applied elsewhere)
I’m mostly with @salectric though sometimes I want to try some of the really exotic thick-film types, that come in TO type containers like this:IME, the thicker the film, the more ’grey/grainy’ the sound.
IME, go for thin film, when and where you can.
That balance between the best and the least expensive.
The thin films will be tougher to find, as thick film is generally the industry solution for modern designs and use (surface mount, etc). Lower rates of rejection in the build (lower % of value error) and higher thermal swings can be handled. They can pound them out like tiny perfected sausages, and sell sell sell....
Except for the fact of the addition of dynamic noise from the thick film, which matters little in most electronics builds, but counts greatly in an audio build.
So one builds a great piece of gear ’x’, and uses thin film. The unit is seen as being a bit dark.
Then one wants to say "no’, you’re just illiterate as to what coloration and obscuration the gear you normally listen to -brings to the table". Which is, of course, sometimes perceived as a deep insult.
Better gear, oddly enough... can be (and is) a hard sell in a world centered on a noise standard that sits unrealized by and in the general buying public. Too many layers to sort through in those grounds they walk on.
The trick is about getting people past the personal discomfort aspect, without raising it’s spectre - into a state of conflict.
The interesting thing about the liquid metal is that the noise is dynamic and signal shaped. In other words, a dynamic impedance.
In a thick film, the lattice is frozen, so under dynamic loading the noise is born by the signal.
In the molecualr level fluid, there is no lattice, and thus the noise is lessened by the correct level of of signal drive and dynamics.
EG, one can't use the liquid metal cables for uV and mV (single digit) level phono signals. With line level signals, it is a different matter. Add in the response to it's own field emanations, and you've got a very strange and different animal.
I did the same 2 years ago with a complete rebuild out of my mono bloc pair. The Vishays have tolerances that are much tighter than 1%.. Try building resistor bridges with the nude Vishays and install in your speakers..The result will be much like the ingestion of 3D trip weed. Not ever again but much the same experience..I remember. Your speakers will be noise and grain free as has your intergrated amp become. Tom
I have also replace the Duelund resistors with Path Audios.
I have'nt done much comparisions, but have been contented with the Path's. It is just too tedious
The Duelunds have much more of a colouration and emphasis towards the upper frequencies which i also noticed even before trying the Path's.
There's a new resistor on the block, Lefson from frace and are also carbon based.
Likely, also made from a 20 cent pencil lead like the Duelunds.
I'm mostly with @salectric though sometimes I want to try some of the really exotic thick-film types, that come in TO type containers like this:
Put a heat sink on them and I think they would make a crossover look slick as hell. :)
No idea about the sound quality. :)
@pbnaudio Nope, here is a better example:
These are quite common in amplifiers. They come in a variety of useful resistor values, but are also fuses which will permanently open above their rated power.
Sbl, I am afraid I can't help you. I abandoned my Duelund resistors (regular and CAST) several years ago. Same thing with my Path Audios. All of them left too much of a fingerprint on the music. Therefore I went back to where I started---with Mills 12w---and I have had no interest in trying anything else. Sorry.
justubes2 or salectric, do you have any more progress to report on the Path Audio resistors. I presently have Kiwames mixed with Duelunds in the tweeter section. The top end is quite lively (bright) and using all Duelunds was too bright. Mixing Kiwames tamed things down but I would like to get better resolution but without the brightness. Did you find the Paths mixed well will Duelunds? Also, do the Paths affect the rhythm. Any further input on the Paths will be appreciated.
I think you must be referring to this type of fuse
which is a fuse not a resistor, although to a layman it might look like it. That being said I find your posts enlightened and offering good advise.
I believe that this thread was questioning why one speaker manufacturer use resistors as fuses, which I consider sub par engineering at best and further evident as some report that these change value over time - which of course they will as they heat up - cool down.
Depending on their insertion in a crossover I use different resistor types, if in a zobel network for impedance correction of a woofer or midrange generally I use 25W cement resistors and almost always several in parallel as to get the power handling up where it needs to be. For attenuation of a tweeter, which I generally try to avoid, I’d use either the Caddock MP9100 which I heatsink or several 5W MOX resistors in parallel again to get the power handling up.
I agree Mills non inductance resistors are nice too and use them on occasion too.
Above is a link to a kit I designed for ScanSpeak a few years back - this will give a good indication on how I propose the use of resistors in a X/O network.
Fusible and flame-proof resistors are quite common in the electronics industry but usually in an amplifier, not a crossover. :) The idea of the former is just like you would expect. When power is exceeded they are guaranteed to open, instead of potentially shorting or catching on fire, and save the rest of the device from a complete meltdown.
Duelund's are really weird. One of their selling points is that they have a high sensitivity to heat and power so will change values rapidly. The very last thing I want in a power resistor! :)
For speakers I stick with Mills. VERY thermally stable, very quite, very tight specs, and really small for the wattages. Also reasonably priced, all things considered.
I do want to someday work for a speaker company that will let me build with some caddock resistors and heat sink them, but so far I haven't the time / energy / funds to experiment with them.
I’m sure everyone would agree that assessing sonic characteristics of parts in a complex audio system is extremely challenging due to component interactions, but here’s my experience.
Shinkohs and Riken Ohms are nice, but just too colored, in a nice way, to use more than just a few. Have tried the old Holcos, but despite added clarity, they were a little thin sounding in the system I had back then. The Dales are natural sounding as are the old Resistas, but neither of these are as transparent as the naked Vishays.
I think the resistor of choice is the TX2575. There may be some ultimate limits even on these. After swapping in almost 80 of these in the signal path of my 2 hybrid tube amps, 60 in the crossovers, and 70 in the phono stage, I had to put 2 Resistas back in to restore a little more midbass/lower mid-range warmth (the Dales would have worked equally well). That’s all it took. Sadly, I did lose just a touch of transparency.
There are always some tradeoffs. Everyone has there own preferences. It’s really amazing (maddening?) how much changing only a couple of parts can dramatically change the sound of a decent audio system. I’m hoping to be done with all this soon!
I have tried many resistors in the preamp that I build. I do like the Vishay but also the Shinko. It also comes down to the placement in the signal path. I prefer the SHinko sound because it has what I would describe as a more real sound. The Vishay is close, it has a more open sound. To describe the difference, when I listen to female vocals and the person whispers, the air coming out of the lungs and out of the mouth sound very real with the Shinko and not the same with the Vishay. You won't know the difference unless you compare them. In my preamp I can dial in 6 different pairs of resistors on the fly so I can hear the differences immediately.
Dgarretson, yes the Duelund would likely be a very good match for the esotar.
With a metal dome it can be a little distracting, very defined detailed. The other resistors are very detailed and do not obscure detail, similar to when you use silver wiring (which the leads of the duelund are.
The Mundorfs surprisingly sound very close to the Duelunds and the Paths sounding a little more laidback and softer detais(you look into the details as opposed as the details coming at you which i do find it more more relaxed sounding..
"The sound of the duelund cast were had very spotlight detailed, too much of a good thing, internet streaming showed certain tracks distortion very clearly."
I haven't tried Mundorf or Path, but Duelund R took my Merlin VSM Esotar tweeter to a level of clarity and refinement that has ended the search for resistors for crossovers. Definitely not too much of a good thing. No interest here in obscuring detail from any source.
Some developments, now came the mundorf m-resist resitor as a temporary fix till my 1 pathaudio replacement. I dont know what happened to the my pathaudio resistor which value went from 6.8ohm to 47k. It did not break but value went up so high i thought the tweeter had problems.
The sound of the duelund cast were had very spotlight detailed, too much of a good thing, internet streaming showed certain tracks distortion very clearly.
I could only try the Mundorf available the nest day, now:
M-Resist, 1 went in the right speaker first, banished the duelunds with great relief! This was much more balanced with very good detail and has a tiny hint of sharpness as compared to the Pathaudio.
This may not be sharpness, but because the Path's are darker sounding (or more neutral), not as highlighted yet detailed. The Paths were more relaxed and smooth, allowing a higher listening volume without fatique. I believe that the slight hint of brightness associated with the steel legs on the mundorf's which i feel is the minus point in the design.
Overall, these mundorfs are the best balanced out of the 3 brands tested though i will revisit the Paths after the new replacement has been burnt in on my cooker.
Update on Pathaudio and Duelund resistors.
Somehow, i blew 1 of the Path resistors and dug out my old Duelunds to replace 1 side for the tweeter network.
Same values.... now boy it was that different.
The Duelund are louder at the same volume, very clear and bright...totally unlistenable. I added another 10% increase in value Duelund i had laying around in series.
Ok, not as loud still very prominent highs. This resistor brings detail very upfront with super clarity, but uitimalely lacks the balance and depth of the Path's.
The duelunds do revealmore detail, artifact of a very upfront sound? I think they need a copper wire instead of silver leads and vice versa for the Paths stranded copper leads.
Yes, every part contributes to the sound.
In a resolving enough setup,even footers can greatly affect the sound. Every bit of wire, type of solder used etc.
I once had a bad fuse holder replaced with a different part, i noticed a difference in sound.
Each product manufacturer has a house sound, tuned based on cost of parts to achieve what the designer references presentation of music.
In the past few years, a number of very exotic equipment manufacturers now used these audiophile components, meaning -expensive parts in their design with different grades and market it accordingly. To a non tech savvy customer, at a much steeper price markup as opposed to what these parts costs, especially considering their oem costs.
Just stick to what is recommended by users based on their sonic finding and try. The more exotic parts usually always work rather well as opposed to mid tier audiophile components, which are many out there. These are a bigger effort to get them sound right in most ways than their tried popular and costlier counterparts.
" The duelund resistors do impart a "live venue" sound "
Having not followed this thread, I'm wondering if you are saying these particular or certain kinds of resistors in general will always have the certain sound signature?
Seems to me results would vary case by case design by design and I would have no clue how to pick a resistor based on how it sounds. Based on clearly specified tolerances, build/part quality, etc., but it just seems to me too much concern about the "sound" of a resistor would be a wild goose chase for most folks. Maybe not for actual product designers who have to make such choices.
Still enjoying music with the new resistors in place.
Another point, the Duelund cast resistors now seemed coloured and gives a distinct sonic flavour or same enhanced "live music atmosphere" over more songs than the pathaudio resistors. I do miss abit of the colour!
Paths are so much more neutral in this regard. By no means does the path's sound cold, thin or lean. It just sounds more linear and neutral.
For any system towards the darker side, the duelund cast resistors should work also, but cost more than the paths, so it's a hard choice. The duelund resistors do impart a "live venue" sound which is also kind of nice, maybe in a more damped or dead room will help bring the required liveliness or airiness.
I did not connect the shield, cannot imagine any improvement as the other signal path is not shielded. Could it lead to quieter/dull sound?
I feel the level of boutique parts have reached a level which one could well be happy with either of these parts with some good matching with other parts. I do have casts in the tweeter and bypass the mids in the crossover, they don't do harm but i never felt they were exception (very good as it is) comparing to teflon vcaps / jupiter copperfoil - they are all top notch. i actually felt the vcap TFTF gave more air than the duelund cast while never sounding bright, just very extended though a touch more neutral than duelunds.
The highs pricing of some of these parts , however good, just cannot maintain a decent cost/performance ratio with the competition available.
The cast caps are good in the output stage of my preamp, nothing magical. just neutral with no misgivings. I feel the Vcap TFTF and CUTF can give more noticeable difference (super linear for the TFTF and saturated tonal colour for the CUTF) which can work even better in a system correctly matched.
I have a jupiter in the output of my phono, nice and have lost the desire to find the best. Maybe sometime when i have time to listen to LP's will i swap the duelunds in - that when i have/tryout a passive preamp. The sound of the cap can be compensated elsewhere that i am lost at the number of permutations in tweaking possible. So long as the cap is of a certain level, it works for me, or should i put it as i will make it work for me.
I now focus attention to the PSU which brings about dramatic changes. Gone are the days of just swapping in "better" electrolytic caps. I now focus more on changing transformers, low noise regs etc. in the PSU circuit which i find makes more difference on a cost/improvement, but still learning in this area.
Great report Justubes2! I am glad the PathAudio resistors have worked well for you. Your description of the Duelund resistors as having "a larger unfocussed and slightly messy soundstage" is, I believe, the same thing I was trying to describe as "wispy" highs that seem to float around in space; the soundstage with the Duelund resistors is big and airy but not focused.
Have you connected the ground shield lead on the PathAudios? If so, to what? I am still using mine without the shield connected.
I want to emphasize that my misgivings about the Duelund resistors (both CAST and regular variety) do not apply in any way to the CAST capacitors. I continue to feel that the CAST caps are the single best sounding capacitor for speaker crossovers. Expensive but well worth the investment. I am not quite as enthusiastic about CAST caps in electronics. In that application I think system matching is more of an issue, and I prefer a balance of CAST and V-Caps. Right now I use a CAST cap in only one place in my electronics---the output coupler on my phono stage. All of my other couplers are either CuTF or regular V-Caps.
After a backbreaking afternoon, the paths have been installed in series the mid and tweeter.
I was broken in on the frybaby for a week and a couple of hours on a bedroom set.
I not sure if the were even close to brokem in nut has a bit strange highs which quicky vanished after half an hour.
These are good and won't hesistate to choose them on the pencil lead resistors. Duelund have good detail and did mostly good with the exception of harshness in the uppermid(midrange driver) and tweeter on 20% of recording which caused some hurt to my hearing.
All these are now banished, thanks to Salectric ;) i had always felt from changing caps etc. the duelund cast gave to the sound i would not expect more.
Details, bass, mids, highs of the path are spot on, no touch of brightness, no shortcoming that i can tell. I feel the biggest difference is the control of the individual sound and sure footedness in the music now, more balanced over the frequencies.
The cast remind me of the mundorf sio capacitors sound, beautiful but with a larger unfocussed and slightly messy soundstage. Swapping the the path resistors were akin to moving up from the mundorf sio cap to something like the duelund cast / Vcap teflon capacitors.
I initially had reservations on how the cast resistors could be bettered, and hesistant to swap in the paths as i had already bought them. I do not need to swap the duelunds back in now!
I guess they can only get better with more run in.
Yes, my resistors are all in the high-pass section of my 2-way crossover. And I am using a mix of Mills wirewound (black body) and PathAudio. I am not using any Duelund resistors these days.
As for why I have a mix rather than all PathAudio, my speakers need some emphasis in the extreme highs, and the Mills provide a sparkle or shimmer that the more neutral PathAudio does not. It is not a case of one being better than the other. You have to mix-and-match to get the particular sound that you were seeking.
I have just got my resistors in, 1 for the mid and 1 for the highs.
Just deciding if i should do 1 at a time or dive in with both.
The resistors you have are all in the high network? Just curious why you still have a mix of duelunds and mills.
Did you find a mix better than all pathaudios?