I was recently told of an unknown speaker by a highly respectable audio componet designer, He swears that these are the speakers all others should be measured against, Vapor audio speakers!, check out the web site, I did, I must say, I was impressed!
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It's possible that even you could achieve N-Dimensional sound with your equipment. It's not particularly dependent upon specific brands or designs of equipment. It's about setup and the use of logically derived synergies (LSD). It's been my experiences that superficial synergies while beguiling are detrimental to long-term satisfaction because they don't address micro-dimensional instabilities (MDI) which unchecked give a hard plastic like sheen to sound. Based upon my decades of audio experience I have found simple ways to cancel out MDI induced plasticity and reach greater levels of LSD. Once you start working with the LSDs N-Dimensional sound is just a kiss away, just a kiss away... It's about what I know and how I use it. Anybody could do it if they only took the decades of time and research that I have put into it. |
I also had a little harshness in the mid-high freq by using Audyssey Pro in the beginning. I could not solve it, there was no information to solve it. I started to read articles about human hearing. Here I did find the freq. I needed to adjust. At the end I solved it completely. With target curves you can adapt it. Audio is about trying things out yourself. Don't be affraid to fail. At the end it will give you a better endresult. |
An interesting position in these forums is the one taken by somebody certain about sound he hasn't actually heard. In my live sound job I've encountered so-called experts here and there, and a few times they've been presented as an artist's personal "live mixing expert" where I happily allow them to mix a show using gear I've assembled. Suffice to say that experience generally shows, as does the lack of same. One young dude (the artist, of course, insisted he be used for her set) had a degree in something and a studio job someplace, but was so clueless about how to run a modern mixing board he managed to get the worst sound ever for a major artist at this particular concert series I was regularly mixing...I noted this for future events and decided to take the wheel back before being steered into the rocks again...ever. A favorite quote from someplace: "Seek the truth, but avoid those claiming to know it"...or something like that. My decades as a professional musician, audio geek, and live sound mixer doesn't make my ears any more special, and all our brains work differently when percieving things which makes any absolutes in art a flawed concept...I know people from the Netherlands, been there a few times, and haven't met anybody even remotely similar to the silly and pretentious gasbag we know as Bo...maybe if we keep him here he can't do as much damage elsewhere, but that's wishful thinking. |
Bo, you have no clue what my system currently consists of, nor all of the high end gear that has passed through my room. Go ahead and believe what ever you wish, but you are wrong. It is clear you have never heard the Intuitive Design Summit, nor do you have any clue as to the design innovation that went into them. Let me just say that they will hold their own with any monitor I have ever listened to, with many of them far more expensive than the Summit. All of your blather makes you sound spiteful and childish, not knowledgeable. Go ahead and continue Boviating, I can use the laughs. It is clear that Bo doesn't know what Bo doesn't know. |
Again, you talk without listening. I said in my last post that you have no clue what is currently in my system, and you do not. You could guess again, but you would be wrong again. There is not one thing on my system page that is still in my room. Does that help? You are right about a couple of things. Audio is about experimenting and system synergy. This is nothing new. I am continually doing so within the confines of my budget. It is the only way I can find out what works together and what doesn't. I just don't understand why you feel that you are the only one that knows these things and are the only one that can get these things right. |
This just, a paparazzi exclusive of Bo at work Sorry Bo. I'm just thinking that some humor might help get people off your back. That and maybe if you would just cut down on repeating yourself and maybe listen to what others might have to say on occasion. You never know, there still might be something new to learn out there. |
I hope it helps for you. Audio is about experimenting, that is for sure. In 16 years of time you see how easy people make mistakes in audio. These mistakes are often based on properties which do not fit well. In my country you have a wedsite for Multi-channel. This is a funplace for people who are extreme good in making mistakes. They really don't know what they are doing. |
Bo, Why don't you give a good example of a nice system you know to give great 3D synergy?? For example, can it be done with say a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8's...a Onyko receiver/OR seperates of some sort?? what cables & PC's etc...etc... Since you have been putting together these systems for so long, what would be a great 3D system that a blue collar worker could easily afford & put together IYO?? Any examples?? You can keep it simple. Just a smart little system that would sound great. Thanks, Bob |
Hey Bob, The S8 is a hell of a speaker. It has won many tests here in europe. I don't think it has any competition for the money. For example the cabinet is 2 cm thick. The Bolt through drive system make it even all better. They use stunning crossovers as well. In the last few weeks I sold one pair in stereo with the Onkyo TX-NR 929 with Audyssey XT-32. I used for amps of the 929. Onkyo will deliver the full capacity of the transformer is using only those 4 amps. The control is stunning. Mann, I created a stunning 3 d sound. The low freq were stunning in drive and in speed. I also sold a system with S8, S centre, SFX and AW12 sub. Also with a 929. The person who bought went nuts. He said: the music is playing 3-4 metres behind the wall. That is not possible, but I hear it. So I said: I don't ask you to understand it. Just enojoy the music and quality. I have my own way of measurment. This I won't share. What I can tell is that I measure at different places and Heights compared to Audyssey does. This way creates a much more musical, dynamic sound with more resolution ans a sharper focus. With Audyssey Pro I can let a 5010 sound like a Class A amp. It is like a transformation in sound. You need to understand that a source can F..up the whole 3D sound easilly. When a source has not the property for depth, it is F...gone. When a client buys a 2D source, I will correct him. I bring in a 3 D source. That is a hard way, but I want things to be clear. Because in my world there is no room for error. For cables the same story. You need to understand and be aware of the properties your cables owns. These will have a big influence on the sound and image. Your welcome, Bobby |
The 929 without my way of XT-32 is huge. You have a much less sharp focus, a more clinical sound, less dynamics, less resolution, les decay. The new Onkyo will not have Audyssey anymore. But...they sound a lot more musical. For people with less insight it is more easy to get a good result. But Audyssey can give you an even more stunning sound. Without Audyssey the stage is less wide and deep. I Always try to use every single tool tot the max. That is why I test so much. To find out what is possible and were are the limitations. You need to use all the good properties. And you have to limit the limitations as much as possible. |
06-17-14: Bo1972And in your post earlier today, I have my own way of measurment. This I won't share.So what's the point? Isn't the purpose of the forum to share information allowing others to learn. I guess you just want everyone to know what it is like to live in your universe. |
I give you a few important tips; You need to use a tripod and you need to work at mm precision. :) The first few times I did a measurment with Audyssey I thought; I understand the benefit, but I also hear the limitations. So I started to do it differently. Other people can try it out as well. You are not a mongol, are ya? The new surround Onkyo receivers are in stereo a lot better than the ones of last year. They also will give stage depth. In the tests I did between the old and new Onkyo receivers. I only found out that in Multi channel with Audyssey the stage is deeper an wider. And you hear also more decay. They use better capacitors, these give a much more musical sound. The individual focus of instuments and voices with the new ones is also a lot better. For me personally without Audyssey Pro I never can create the level I have. I will use the 5509 longer. I also will go on for some time with the Integra 80.3. |
"The new surround Onkyo receivers are in stereo a lot better than the ones of last year. They also will give stage depth. In the tests I did between the old and new Onkyo receivers. I only found out that in Multi channel with Audyssey the stage is deeper an wider. And you hear also more decay. They use better capacitors, these give a much more musical sound. The individual focus of instuments and voices with the new ones is also a lot better." Bo, do you use the amplifier sections of the Onkyo receivers or just the preamp? |
I can tell you that I can crush all Marantz and Denon surround and integrated amps with ease. I can achieve this with using Onkyo surround receivers. The difference are huge. Going back to Marantz and Denon with Monitor Audio you will loose all depth. These are the most common brands in the Netherlands. They also loose in sharpness in focus compared to the Onkyo I have even proven that I beat a Marantz KI integrated of 3000 dollar with a Onkyo 5010 with Pro. It was superior in every single aspect you Judge an amp for. I use these Onkyo surround amps also often for people who only play stereo. I can demo that my configuration wins in every single part you Judge a amp for against others. - stunning 3d stage with a lot of depth and width. Going back to Marantz and Denon it is all gone. - Better timing and more control compared to Denon and Marantz. _ a much sharper individual focus. - even in sound it is better than both brands with Audyssey - a superior integration in every room based on the acoustics. - much better articulation of voices and details. * This is so much fun to do and compare. This is what I said; it is so easy to win it. |
With the Onkyo PR-SC5509 with my way of pro I achieve a stunning level as a pre amp. I play about 80% in stereo. Since 2009 I use Pass labs poweramps. I owned the Pass Labs XP-20 for 2 years of time. With the Onkyo PR-SC5509 and my pro measurement I get a superior level compared to the XP-20 with Pass Labs. The biggest differences are: a much sharper individual focus of instruments and voices. This you easilly can hear in 2th and 3th voices. They are a lot more clear than what you get with the XP-20. With the target curves I used I have a much better articulation of voices. You hear deatials which are not there or almost not there with the XP-20. In drive it is the same thing. You also can play a lot louder without any roomacoustic limitation. Withe the XP-20 the room will work against you a lot sooner. With the Stillpoints, Audioquest Wel, Redwood and Purist Audio LE powercables you get an extreme level of 3D sound. Instruments and voices are physical apparent at a level most people never heard. The differences in Heights give you a new level in listening to music. The air around voices make them so much more intimate. We had a long discussion here at Audiogon about why some cables are so expensive. Audio needs to be more open and transparent. That is why this monday I had a dicussion about cables with the head of Audioquest Europe. I said to him; this need to be heard. This makes music so much more involving and unique. That is why shows needs be held differently. |
"I can tell you that I can crush all Marantz and Denon surround and integrated amps with ease. " Crush, Kill....Destroy!!!! |
The fun thing in audio is beating the competition. When you work more precise you Always will win. The main reason why I am so persisting in winning is based on the fact that too many people deliver a low endresult in audio. In 16 years of time I have seen too many average and worse shows. Visit too many people at home with a low level in endresult who spend a lot of money. |
More boasting from Bo... "I have even proven that I beat a Marantz KI integrated of 3000 dollar with a Onkyo 5010 with Pro. It was superior in every single aspect you Judge an amp for." I have the Marantz PM15S2, that is very similar to the KI Pearl. And in my opinion, these Marantz integrateds are very good sounding and extremely well built amps. Further, I need no DSP to get the performance I want for stereo. I rely on careful speaker placement and an understanding of room acoustics. Along with properly matching an amps output to the load given by the speaker. And as happy as I am with the results, I would never make the claims that you do. Because it is still an opinion and opinions are like A**Holes Bo. We all have them. So I am curious how exactly you have proven that the Onkyo AVR with Audyssey Pro is superior for 2 channel stereo. You say "you have proven" it. Along with "every single aspect you judge an amp for". Pretty strong words sport. I don't know about you, but most EE's judge aspects of an amps performance by benching it and evaluating the numbers. And numbers can be offered as written proof. So, just how would you prove your statements to the forum Bo? |
Depth give instruments and voices a much more realistic and involving experience. Same thing about an intimate physical stage. This part Marantz does not own. When you compare the more expensive Marantz amps with Pass labs in sound realism, they are of a much lower level. All the parts togheter they never will win any war. This is clear and simple as 1 and 1=2. When you use the best cables, you also go to a much higher endresult. When you put all the parts togheter you have a change to create the magic audio can give. At the end it is about emotion and feeling. |
Per Bo..."Depth give instruments and voices a much more realistic and involving experience. Same thing about an intimate physical stage. This part Marantz does not own." And you base this statement on what proof Bo? More Bo..."When you compare the more expensive Marantz amps with Pass labs in sound realism, they are of a much lower level." I thought your were comparing the upper level Marantz amps to a mainstream Onkyo AVR Bo. Now its Pass Labs??? Make up your mind. |
Read better, you are a bad reader.......I use Only Pass Labs poweramps for my front speakers since 2009. I am talking about my personal set. The PR-SC5509 I only use as a pre amp. I did not expect to create such an extrme level. You Always need some luck in life. Marantz does not even come close to all the parts you Judge a poweramp for compared to Marantz. Marantz can only dream about that..... For my work I beat Marantz and Denon amps for supper!! People who buy Monitor Audio speakers often have a Marantz or Denon amp. 2 dimensional sound is for mongols. You bring in a 3 dimensional amp........ The addictive part does his work. It is difficult to go back to 2 dimensional sound. You don't want to be a mongol....do ya? |
Good analogy Tls but I attribute his behavior as a result of one of four possibilities... 1. He was dropped on his head too many times as a baby. 2. He was over lavished with praise, affection and money as a child. 3. He constantly forgets to takes his morning meds as an adult. 4. Or all of the above. And he can't prove one damned thing that he spouts off. |
In general I try to avoid internet squabbles with fellow industry members because I think it's bad form. But I will toss out a few thoughts on the concept of unearned authority, which is something that arises beyond these walls as well. In any field, authority should be earned and expertise should be demonstrated or documented, and not merely claimed, nor carelessly granted to any claimant that comes along. For instance, if you need to have your website translated into French, you might ask someone claiming expertise to demonstrate, or provide documentation of, his expertise before you hire him. Note that claims (no matter how numerous and impressive) are not proof, and may not even constitute evidence if there is no true source cited or reference provided. Statements such as "So you want proof; just ask them"; and "I have proven this more than once"; and "They know that I can create a superior end result... I do not have to prove this anymore. They know it!!" are attempts to elevate a mere claim to the status "proof" when it does not even qualify as "evidence". These are pretty clear indications that unearned authority is being sought. These sort of statements should set off our BS detectors. If your little voice inside says "something's not right here", pay attention to it. Actual proof is hard to come by, but at least expect (preferably independent) evidence and/or some sort of demonstration of claimed expertise before accepting someone as an earned authority in any given field. Duke |
These sort of statements should set off our BS detectors. If your little voice inside says "something's not right here", pay attention to it. Actual proof is hard to come by, but at least expect (preferably independent) evidence and/or some sort of demonstration of claimed expertise before accepting someone as an earned authority in any given field.I take this as a direct assault on my claims of N-dimensional sound! I would also hold it up as an example of the pettiness that runs through the high end audio business which I and I alone will be the savoir of. You question my credibility, well who are you? Just because you're a successful loudspeaker designer with impressive technical chops doesn't make you an authority on quantum micro dimensional coherence wave theory. (Sure, my certificate is in cosmetology, not cosmology, but I've read a lot on my own.) It's quite apparent that you don't understand N-dimensional sound. I'd explain it to you, but it's so complicated that you wouldn't understand the explanation. I'm doing you a favor. If you could grasp just a portion of what I have achieved with N-dimensional sound your head would start spinning and you'd end up in the fetal position crying like a baby. N-dimensional sound is hyper-palpable! Duke, sorry to make this so personal. I realize you are totally intimidated by my extensive internet forum persona and was acting defensively. I accept you your apology. |
Dear Paraneer, During the AV Show, organised by Audio Video2day, in Veldhoven, in the demonstration room of Onkyo, Mr. Bobby Kingma, put down a incredible demonstration with the following equipment: At last someone who dares to trust his own ears and experience, obtained by years of working in renowned hifi retail stores. And dares to put down a HiEnd set of the best of the best, without no compromises. No hidden agendas, just hours and hours of listening and combining the best. Knowing how to get the best out of, in this case, a Monitor Audio Platinum 5.1 set. Creating depth, a true performance experience. Alex Brady, one of the directors from Monitor Audio UK was a visitor on the show and he was impressed, one of the best or even the best demonstration ever with a Platinum 5.1 set, he remarked. Monitor Audio Nederland B.V. Marja Hoogendoorn [email protected] * Paraneer you can email her when you want to. |
Well Bo, true to your word you had one of your buddies at Monitor Audio NL post a message that you did an incredible job with their own equipment. I don't think any of us are surprised by their opinion about their own equipment though. Thank Marja for a well written post even if it doesn't say that Bo was best in show. I see no need to email her or Onkyo for that matter. This isn't the kind of critical feedback the forum was expecting. But good job making your bosses happy! |
I spoke with Onkyo about it. I will try to get it from them as well. I got an email that I was right about the words I used. I will send you a personal message when I recieved it. I am Always honest and things are exactly as I said they are. I will do some shows this years. I will make a professional video with my Sony pro equipment. The best sound Always will win :) |
Bo, your words..."I spoke with Onkyo about it. I will try to get it from them as well. I got an email that I was right about the words I used. I will send you a personal message when I recieved it." As indicated in my last post, don't bother. Whatever Onkyo or Marja had to say is just their SUBJECTIVE opinion and meaningless to most of us on the forum. Of course, they are going to say they are impressed with the sound of equipment they MANUFACTURE and SELL! But you said, you were the absolute best sound at the show. Only a panel of independent judges voting you the best in show, would carry some OBJECTIVE meaning when trying to prove your boasts. Again, good job pleasing your bosses but its pretty meaningless to me. Just because Onkyo or MA says their products are the best, and so are you who they pay for consulting, doesn't make anyone want to buy one. Unless consumers are truly that gullible in your country but I doubt it. Its no different than a Mother saying her newborn is the beautiful baby in the world. Even if the baby looks like ET. For the thousandth time, don't you get it??? |