tonearms with VTA-towers for true "VTAF"


Hi All,
I think the time has come to look at some more 'advanced' tone-arms that sport VTA towers. ('Old skool' is getting us not much further with this, or?))

During a lot of other, related postings it seems a good subject, I think.

Our experts, all might agree, that:

1) If you want to push the envelope for BEST possible replay, constant VTA 'adaptation' is an unavoidable matter. (nobody said madness :-)

2) I understand this means a TOP cart, inevitably with a 'most modern' type Fine-Line contact stylus, forget elliptical or can one even mention the word, spherical?

Add some TOP cantilever materials like:
- Beryllium (hard to get, as it is a very tricky material to work with i.e. very poisonous in powder form),
- Boron (which mostly has replaced the former),
- Titanium?? (was used by some of the better AT carts),
- Ruby, well some like it I hear,
- Sapphire?? (some one liked that better then Ruby, but VERY little seems about),
- Diamond (see e.g. the DV odd-ball 17D3), etc.

This should make for some VERY detailed and revealing reproduction (even in an MM cart), add to this the most revealing ingredients of a TOP LO-MC.

The end result is, that you can now here some marvellous detail (carved-outness of images, stage-depth -width, and on), B U T ONLY if your VTA is at its VERY closest to what the record was cut to! (Else you find your cart, record, arm, phono-pre, .... system sux :-)

More interesting yet, even the same vinyl brands have not always used the same cutting angles (over time). Anything from just under 20deg. to about 25deg. is what we find!

Next, these high res. styli also have each one their own preferred SRA / VTA angles, i.e. the stylus line-ridge related to the cantilever is a variable too.

Add this all up and you have a problem, particularly if you care for truly top play-back.

If you have a "VTA tower" it only seem to take 15sec. to change to the correct, previously found VTA, you do need to be organised though. If you want some know-how, Doug can tell, see also the discussion under:
"VTA setting for 'parabolic' and 'elliptical' styli"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1244713018

There we have mentioned 3 current contenders, I quote: "Graham, VPI, TriPlanar plus a few very costly linear trackers..."

WHAT ABOUT THE: Kuzma 4Point?!

If I wouldn't like e.g.:
- multiple added connections (Graham, 7 in total?)
- wobbly Unipivots (VPI)
- too many fiddly pieces to make up the arm (TriPlanar)
- air bearings, or worse yet 'electronic' arm-feed

If I'd have an issue with these, I've no working solution to the VTAF I'd be looking for.

What say you?

Greetings,
Axel

axelwahl

Showing 6 responses by axelwahl

Hi Atmasphere,
thanks for the powerful 'witnessing'.
I must say this does sounds so convinced (and Rfogel8's
to boot), I have copied what you wrote.

Truly food for thought.
Which MRK?? are you actually referring to, since there is now a MK VII, is that right?

Thanks,
Axel
Hi D. & Gregm,

well, well, well, ask for a sausage and get the hole pig :-)

I'm aware of the VTA vs. overhang influences, even before D. rubbed us all up on Egyptian geometry as applicable to tone-arms.

But, as we (maybe just me...) are now starting to accept that even 'minute' variation play more into it, then more generally accepted, even a more modern (low-tech?) VTA tower with a **robust** arm may be a proposition.
(Whilst we are awaiting the next big step -- Gregm's auto-calibration detector)

I had a look at the ET2 / ET2.5..., lo and behold, an AIR-BEARING linear-tracker, ouch.
Raul once mentioned, and I think he has a point, those would have some short comings in the bass and treble in lieu of a marvellous mid-range.
Some say: they can't 'close the acoustic loop' as those type of bearings can't 'sink' any arm-resonance... not to open yet another Pandora’s box, but it has some logic to it - at least for me.

So, beyond the "4Point" and it's 'minor' overhang related issue, is there anything else out there - that one actually can buy?

Greetings,
Axel
Hi Larryi,
you mention something VERY interesting
>>> For that, the only somewhat easy to implement way to mitigate the problem is a long tonearm. <<<

An aha, moment?! - But is it not, that if e.g. 1.5mm arm-up on a 9" arm is required to get 'ball-park' from one to another kind of vinyl, this would translate to even MORE change with a 12" arm?

I don't say that's all there is to it, but you know -- the old Egyptian, or should I say Pythagoras come to mind... the trigonometrical-functions.

It'd be just the ticket if a 12", 10.5" or 11" be more 'forgiving'.

Just this afternoon I played some very famous Swedish Jazz Ensemble's LP (my Audio friend brought along). And after running it through my RCM it played better more correct with cymbals etc. going 0.2mm down on VTA... eish!

So could it be, a longer arm IS more forgiving?

D.
Technics EPA-500 ===> Titanium Nitride, ah so,
FR-64s w/B-60, oh yes, look most desirable objects and surely as scarce as chicken teeth, methinks :-).

Greetings,
Axel
Hi, Pryso
>>> Axel, what is VTAF? <<<
VTA/SRA on the F = FLY, a pretty well known concept actually.

>>> ...would you call the Graham Triplanar adjustment devices towers? <<< yes, 'VTA adjustment tower' using a micrometer type spindle for fine adjustment.. ON THE FLY.

>>> ... not all of those allow for adjustment of VTA during play <<< during play = on the fly another well.., yes.

Maybe they do not all quality, which would be a little more limiting in quickly finding a VTA 'sweet spot' - but their quick up down action including a graded dial is about this here inquiry.

>>> The JMW-9 has an adjustment dial but (I don't believe) it is recommended during playback <<<
I think that was at least the idea? --- and maybe Harry doesn't mind? :-)

But as to VPI, and as mentioned above: some say they wobble too much for their liking...

Larry,
a good point you make, it sounds like Pierre Lurnés analogue thoughts revisited,
http://www.tnt-audio.com/intervis/lurne_e.html

I actually just mentioned this on the old skool tonearm thread ------- BUT, VTA is more a vertical only affair, yes?

If that is true, we'd be back with a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and the same angle alpha (enclosing A & B) over a longer C and B = a bigger A. Hm, (Trigonometry by Notepad :-)

Hello Viridian,
hey, we love those funny older 'pegs' for their music making! :-)
Where ever I put this hierarchy you refer to, it was strictly about detail retrieval and resolution, regarding their (conical et al) forgivingness compared to hyper exact VTA settings needed for those other fine-line jobs.
As you rightly point out, detail retrieval and resolution is NOT = to musicality as such.

So yes, horses for courses, but it wouldn’t change the facts about their (o) specific strength and weaknesses.
No bashing intended at all! For my own liking -- I think elliptical to be musical enough, else next we gonna argue about a more high-end kind gramophone needle.
(Can't remember that cool sounding metal some used, maybe someone can help my memory).

Many thanks,
Axel
Hi Pryso
40 years ha, :-)

Some say:
experience is not knowing more & more about the same thing,
but knowing more & more about different things.

In fairness VTA F is not what was around before much more then ~ 15 years, maybe less?
It must coincide with the 'VTA-tower' (micrometer spindle) NEXT to (not under) the 'arm pivot, which in fact makes the whole thing (VTA change on the Fly) possible to work in the first place.
Lo and behold, there is OVERHANG 'on the Fly' also, as can be done with SME 300, IV and V series. (Even with the SME IV.vi which is a US special, Sumiko exclusive only, or 3500 etc. made for German tt maker Transrotor)

So your asking about it, is graciously forgiven...

Axel
Atmasphere,
>>> The VTA tower allows for good repeatability as well and its easy to use. <<<
Oh yes, I think that seems THE strong point of the design, now all the other bits and pieces look like --- just a bit much, compared to other designs.
Amazing, the way it's reported to sound - I actually have not heard it.
Forgive me, as a Mechanical Engineer I have my thoughts about busy designs... yet I can see, once in use, that that just might become secondary, of sorts.

You obviously are very fond of its sound, and its adjustability and that is good.
For me the design goes somehow against my grain, even since the quality of implementation was said to be much improved to earlier models.
(It reminds me a bit of a HUMMER 3, I wonder why :-)

Greetings,
Axel