musicloversaudio: "Just no. Thin and uninvolving are the characteristics of class D, plus noisy as heck."
musicloversaudio,
Just your "noisy as heck" comment demonstrates you are either just making things up or have absolutely no experience listening to class D. Virtually all class D amps have extremely low distortion and are the exact opposite of "noisy as hell", they are the least noisy of all existing amp types by a wide margin. Everyone who has ever heard class D will concede this because it’s so obvious, music emerges from an inky black, dead silent background. I thought everyone already knew this is one of the main characteristics of class D
What exactly is your problem?
Tim
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clearthink,
Anyone stating class D is "noisy as hell" very obviously doesn't know what the heck they're talking about. It's simply not scientifically or anecdotally true. It's not my opinion that class D is quiet as hell, it is a scientific fact. I stand by my statement that anyone claiming class D is "noisy as hell" has either never auditioned it or purposefully lying. Have you ever heard class D? If so, would you describe it as noisy as hell?
Elizabeth,
Class AB Brystons are decent amps for Magnepans but, if you ever want to try out amps that have less distortion, much better bass, superior dynamics, are much quieter (much higher Signal to Noise ratio), a third of the size and weight as well as consume a fraction of the electricity, check out a good class D or two.
Tim
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georgehifi:
"What I hear from that technology, is dependent on where the "output filter is set" to filter out the switching noise.
1:Too high and it lets through too much switching noise but with reduced phase shift into the audio band, this to me sound hard and bright on music.
2:Too low and it roll off the highs and causes too much phase shift into the audio band, but it filters out more of the switching frequency, this to me sound soft and opaque in the highs, and not involving in the mids, but at least it’s not hard."
Wow George, you finally responded to how your theorized and supposed class D deficiencies are manifested audibly. I’ve been requesting this info from you for what seems like years with no responses. What gives?
I understand your position is not to utilize a class D amp until you deem it to be technically perfect and that’s your choice. However, to me and I believe to the majority of other class D amp adopters, making the perfect the enemy of the extremely good makes little sense.
I’ll use logic to explain my perspective. Even if your theories about the deficiencies of most current class D amps are correct, that the current carrier switching frequency needs to be raised to the 1.5mHz range and the current output filters removing the carrier frequency are inadequate, they are meaningless to all individuals that do not perceive your claimed audible effects of the music sounding hard, bright, soft and opaque in the highs and not involving in the mids. Since I perceive none of these effects in my system using numerous class D amps, by your own definition your claimed class D deficiencies don’t exist in my system.
I believe this is also true for all individuals who do not hear the audible qualities you detail in your above descriptions labelled as 1 and 2. Our combination of perceptions represent all of our realities.
However, I'm still willing to keep an open mind and will listen to any class D amp you deem to be perfected in the future just in case your claims are actually valid and I can perceive the audible results.
Tim
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George,
I believe your bringing up tweeter damage supposedly caused by class D amps and warning not to leave them on 24/7 are just red herrings since these claims are poorly documented and defy reason. Are you now so desperate that you're now reverting to attempting to scare individuals away from using class D amps in their systems?
I've used two stereo and a pair of monoblocks in my combo music and ht system that have been powered on 24/7 now for over the last 5 years with only very positive and zero negative results. Just excellent sound performance, no excess heat and low electricity bills.
You need a new strategy besides disinformation.
Tim
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Hello ptrck887, Yes, the D-Sonic are excellent examples of class D amps that provide hi-end sound at bargain prices. Of course, there are even better class D amps available, such as Merrill Audio’s new Element 114 stereo amp that uses the new extremely fast switching Gallium Nitride transistors, but it’s priced at $15,000. Here’s a review: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/05/03/merrill-audio-introduces-the-114-new-gallium-nitride-amplifier/ But it better perform better when it costs over $12,000 more than your D-Sonic M3A-1500 mono blocks, which are their latest top of the line mono block amp model and utilize the latest very high quality power modules from Pascal. I use a pair of the slightly older, previous generation D-Sonic M3-600-M mono blocks, that were their amp model just below the M3-1500-M model, with Magnepan 2.7QR speakers and they’re the best amps I’ve ever used with them. I’m glad you mentioned how "dead quiet your class D amps are because this quietness, along with a very accurate, detailed and neutral presentation, are the most obvious qualities I’ve noticed in all the good quality class D amps I own and have listened to. The only difference I noticed between your description of your experiences utilizing class D and my own concerns performance on poor recordings. I find it’s become much easier to identify the quality level of recordings as well as upstream changes in equipment and cabling when using good quality class D amps compared to the good quality class AB amps (Adcom, McCormack and Aragon) I used previously. Enjoy, Tim |
Ryan of Red Dragon told me he's going to have an all new and upgraded lineup of amps coming out later this year. He's definitely not going out of business. Here's a copy of his email response: " Ryan Tew <[email protected]>Mon, Jul 22, 3:17 PMto me
Hi Tim
We are working on an entirely new MkIII generation and hope to have them ready later this year.
Thanks,
Ryan Tew President - Red Dragon Audio
www.RedDragonAudio.com
801.361.7138801.810.8184
On Jul 21, 2019, at 1:07 AM, RED DRAGON AUDIO (Shopify) <[email protected]> wrote:"
Tim |
I originally agreed with all that have suggested pairing a good quality tube preamp with their class D amps. For a few years I used a VTL 2.5L preamp, with the four standard tubes swapped out for a set of four NOS (new old stock) Mullard tubes in my combo 2-channel music and 5.1 ch surround system for HT. The HT portion of my system included an Oppo 105 Bluray player and a Parasound AV-2500 5.1 surround sound preamp/processor. The VTL has a HT passthru switch and the Oppo is able to play CD, SACD and DVD-A discs and hi-res music files for 2-ch audio as well as DVD and Bluray video discs for HT.
This setup sounded great for music and HT and I never thought I'd sell the VTL tube preamp. But I had an urge to streamline my system and I tried my system out without the Parasound surround processor and the VTL. I just went direct from the Oppo's outputs to my amps; a pair of class D D-Sonic M3-600-M mono block amps for l+r stereo for music and front l+r channels for HT surround, a bridged stereo class D Emerald Physics EP-100-SE amp for the center ch and a stereo Class D Audio SDS-440-CS amp for the rear surround channels.
The Oppo's audio sections are very high quality with a detailed and neutral presentation just as all of my class D amps are. I expected the combined overall sound to be too sterile, neutral and lacking in dimension, warmth, bloom and body. However, I was surprised to discover that all my familiar music sounded just as sweet, warm, dimensional and full of natural body without the flavoring I had assumed the VTL and tubes were providing.
I think it's important to point out that these very good results were obtained on music that was well recorded. Fortunately, most of my familiar music turned out to be well recorded but, unfortunately, not all of my music recordings survived such close scrutiny of quality. There are some recordings I've removed from the rotation if I was unable to find a well recorded example of the same music.
These were unexpected results, somewhat proven by the fact that I had just bought and installed a complete four tube replacement set of $200 NOS Mullard tubes in the VTL. But I felt I had to trust my ears, so I removed the VTL from my system and sold it to a buddy.
My new system configuration, combining an accurate, detailed and neutral preamp with amps that have the same characteristics, not surprisingly delivers an overall system sound that is very accurate, detailed and neutral. I related my experience just for the benefit of those considering class D amps. My main point being you can obtain very good overall system sound quality using class D amps by either pairing it with an accurate, detailed and neutral preamp (usually solid state) along with exclusively well recorded source material or pairing it with a more flavored preamp (usually tubed) that is more forgiving on poorly recorded source material. A choice of two methods reflecting different personal preferences.
Tim
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dutchydog,
Anyone who claims class D amps are noisy has obviously never listened to one, forfeits all credibility and any further claims they make on the subject are best ignored.
Tim
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Hello clearthink,
Can you please tell us, using your reliable, repeatable and objective measurement techniques, what your results were for class A, AB, D and tube amps in the standardized specification of Signal to Noise Ratio?
As you’re certainly aware, your Signal to Noise Ratio measurements will settle definitively our little disagreement about whether class D amps are noisy or not. Signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is a measure used in science and engineering that compares the level of a desired signal to the level of background noise. The higher the ratio the less noisy the amp.
Once you enlighten us all with your SNR measurements for each amp type, it will be obvious whether or not class D amps are noisy and which of the amp types is the quietest, in other words, which amp type has the highest measured ratio.
Thank goodness you’ve been doing all your scientific measuring, ranking the various amp types from noisiest to quietest should be a breeze with your handy and definitive measurements.
Oh, and just to guarantee fairness and honesty, it is stipulated that your failure to respond on this thread will be an admission that class D amps have the highest Signal to Noise Ratios of all the amp types and, therefore, can be scientifically declared as the quietest amp type.
Sorry clearthink, I already know class D tops the list for highest SNR. However, I have a suspicion you’ll be reluctant to freely admit this for some reason and the stipulation will at least guarantee your tacit admission of this rather well known fact.
Tim
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Hello niodari,
Amen, brother. I don't believe any class D amp user or fan is claiming they absolutely are the best overall amp type, that they sound the best, reproduce a certain frequency range the best or are the best amp for everyone.
Personally, I'm just claiming in absolute terms that class D amps are the quietest amp type, are the most electrically efficient amp type, are the coolest running amp type and are typically the smallest and lightest type. In more subjective and relative terms, I personally claim that good quality class D amps offer very good overall sound quality from top to bottom, are generally and relatively more affordable than other amp types and, therefore, are generally better bargains than other amp types.
Of course, I realize our choice of which amp to purchase is a subjective one based on more than just personal preference and budget. The truth is I don't actually give a hoot which amp type individuals choose to purchase. I'm absolutely certain that I get more pleasure listening to my class D amp than I would ever get from convincing anyone else to use a class D amp.
My main intent, based on my personal experience, is usually just spreading the word that class D amps were a very good choice in my system with my inefficient Magnepan speakers. My expectation is that some individuals will find my comments useful, some will be offended and most won't give a sh$t.
Tim |
Hello clearthink,
I was expecting a list of amp types with their SNR specs ranked from highest SNR to lowest.
But there's really no reason for you to respond, I think everyone reading this thread understands by now that class D amps are the quietest amp type.
Thanks,
Tim |
darkstar on his ATI amp:" The sound is high end. Huge stage, precise images and natural timbre. The sound reflects the front end. Changes in upstream equipment are easily audible. ATI uses a large linear power supply. No SMPS power. I listen about 12 hours a day. Every day. Jazz and classical primarily. No listener fatigue here." As an owner and user of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks, I consider this a very good description of what to expect from the inclusion of a high quality class D amp or amps in one's system. I haven't yet had the opportunity to audition an ATI amp in my or any system, but darkstar's description of the ATI's performance characteristics closely resemble the performance characteristics that I've perceived in my amps over the past 4 plus years in my system on both 2-ch music and HT playback. I also read this Sound & Vision review on a couple of ATI amps that further supports their high quality:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-at527nc-and-at524nc-amplifiers-review
I 've read that many of the ATI amps utilize the newer and highly respected Hypex NCore500 class D power modules. These are likely an important contributor to the high quality sound performance. These ATI amps also utilize conventional toiroidal transformers as part of their power supplies. It seems like some believe the use of conventional toroidal transformers in the power supplies of class D amps results in superior performance when compared to the newer switch mode power supplies (SMPS) used in other high quality class D amps. All 3 of the class D amps I use in my system happen to have power supplies using conventional toroidal transformers but I've listened to many other class D amps utilizing SMPS. In my listening experiences, I've never perceived any noticeable sound quality advantage of either power supply types. Overall, I consider the ATI amps a very good high quality class D amp option that I also consider a bit overpriced. Tim |
Hello niodari,
I've never listened to any Cherry, Nuprime or ATI amps, but I've read good reviews on all of them. I don't currently have any knowledge or experience that would lead me to think any one of them is the best.
I know there are a lot of good quality class D amps, such as the ones you mentioned, as well as many others.
My suggestion is to do as much research as you can on class D amps by reading audio forum discussions on class D amps as well as owner and professional reviews online. Start a list or spreadsheet of all possible candidates that lists Company, Model Number, Type(monoblock or stereo), Condition (new or used),Price and a Notes section for important related info. You can also do Google searches on particular brands/models to obtain more specific and even comparison info.
I'll get you started by listing some good quality class D companies to consider and other thread readers, hopefully, will chime in with others to consider. Since I don't know your budget, I can't currently limit my suggestions by price but it's very useful if you could post your budget as well as primary usage (music, HT or both), number of desired channels (monoblock single channel, stereo 2-ch or multi-ch with ? channels).
Here's my starter list:
ATI
Acoustic Imagery
Anthem
Arcam
Atmasphere (first class D amp from this tube amp company. Release date TBD.)
Bel Canto
B&K Audio
Cherry
Channel Islands
Class D Audio
Classe
Devialet
D-Sonic
Hypex (class D power module and power supply manufacturer for DIY amp kits)
James Romeyn (Hypex NCore400 amp kit builder)
Kii Audio
Linn
Lyndorf
Marantz
Merrill Audio
Mola Mola
NAD
Nord
Red Dragon (all new upgraded models coming late 2019.)
Outlaw
Peachtree
Primare
Purifi
Rogue Audio
Sunfire
Theta
Wyred 4 Sound
Have fun,
Tim
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snapsc:
"My advice...since amps DO sound different....and since class d amps are generally lighter in weight and less expensive to return....try 2 or 3 of them at the same time and send those back that don't give you the sound you are looking for....$50+- if return freight is nothing compared to getting to hear them in your home, on your system with your music."
I think this is a good idea once you narrow your list down to amps you'd like to audition. Most class D amps are sold internet direct and offer free in-home trial periods for a certain number of weeks stipulating you can return it for a full refund with no questions asked, and sometimes with free return shipping. But I agree with snapsc that even paying a reasonable charge is worth it to hear it in your system and room.
You could even add a column for "Trial Period" that lists the offered in-home trial period in days or weeks. The only downside is that, in my experience, class D amps take a while to properly 'break-in' and perform optimally which could be longer than the trial period. However, the three class D amps I own sounded very good right out of the box but still kept improving in sound quality over a number of weeks after until the sound quality stabilized at each amp's optimum quality level. The danger being that the ultimately best sounding amp just happens to have the longest 'break-in' time and the in-home trial period was too short for you to discover this.
All of my class D amps have been on 24/7 for over 5 years now and are still operating flawlessly (knock on my head). I suspect their low internal operating temps likely only increases their lifespans but this currently lacks scientific, objective and independent validation. If longevity concerns you, you could also add a column on your list for warranty length and terms.
Good luck,
Tim
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Hey niodari, If you're looking for the highest performance/price class D amp and don'[t mind buying used, I think the Merrill Audio Veritas monoblocks are a great option to consider. Reviews on these amps claim they're among the best performing amps available regardless of amp type or price. They sold new a few years ago for $12,000/pair but I've recently seen numerous ads from owners with an average asking price of about $5,000/pair. Merrill audio recently came out with a new lineup of Element amps utilizing extremely fast switching GaN transistors that virtually eliminate 'dead-time' which significantly reduces distortion and improves sound quality. These include the Element 114 which is a stereo amp priced at $15,000 and 2 monoblocks, the Element 116 and Element 118 priced at $23,000 and $36,000/pair respectively. I'm thinking the reason numerous ads are appearing for used pairs of Veritas amps is due to current owners of Veritas monoblocks planning on buying one of the Element amps and are selling their Veritas monoblocks in preparation. I strongly believe you'll prefer the sound quality performance of the Veritas amps over the Cherry amps but I can't know this with certainty. Here's one of many good reviews on th Veritas:
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/merrill-audio-veritas-monoblock-amplifiers-are-all-class-d-amplifiers-the-same/
Tim |
Hello niodari,
Everything you said in your last post makes perfect sense to me. Even though I've never heard the Merrill Veritas, I consider them one of the best examples of how well class D amps can perform because all of the numerous pro reviews I've read consistently state they are excellent amps regardless of amp type and price.
I wasn't willing to verify this at a price tag of $12K/pair but I'm seriously considering it at $5K/pair. However, I can verify that other class D amps offer very good performance at a much lower price. I went this route, initially buying a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp for $630. This was my first D amp and I was stunned by how well this amp performed with my Magnepan 2.7QR speakers, better in all aspects than the high current class AB McCormack and Aragon amps I'd previously used that I had paid over $2K each for. It was also about 1/3rd the size and weight, ran much cooler and sipped, rather than gulped, electricity.
For the past 5 years, I've been using D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks($2,100/pair new) on my Magnepans and have been very pleased. They're very powerful (600w@ 8 ohms, 1,200w@ 4 ohms and, I believe, stable down to 2 ohms), have great bass, powerful dynamics and a detailed but very smooth midrange and treble that I never perceive as bright or harsh. I bought these with a 28 day free in-home trial period, they sounded very good to me right out of the box and I never considered returning them. I did notice an occasional brightness on the upper treble but this completely disappeared over during the first few months of usage.
I believe the D-Sonic amps should be on your short list of class D amps to audition along with the Cherry models. If you can wait a few months, Red Dragon has stated they'll be introducing an all new lineup of stereo and monoblock amps by the end of the year. I haven't heard of any details about their new amp lineup yet but suspect these may be good candidates for you to audition, too.
Good luck,
Tim
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Hello niodari,
I believe most internet direct class D companies ship worldwide without too many exceptions but I'm not certain, you may want to call or email and ask.
I agree the LSA amp looks very interesting. If it has a switching carrier frequency of about 1.5 MHz, perhaps georgehifi may even be interested.
I'm currently very pleased with all my the class D amps I use in my system. I strongly believe they have so many positive attributes it will be hard for them not to be the predominate amp technology in the near future.
At their current stage of development, I understand some preferring to use their beloved class A, top of the line class AB or tube amps. Of course, class D has no current monopoly on high quality performance.
However, it's apparent that class D technology performance quality has been improving at a faster pace than the technology the more traditional amps are based on. I envision this fast paced improvement in the performance quality of class D technology and amps to continue for the foreseeable future. Eventually, even those afflicted with the worst cases of amp-type bias will relent in favor of improved audio quality. Perhaps it may result from class D amps incorporating DSP circuitry that is able to mimic the sound qualities of state of the art class A and tube amps at the press of a button.
This should be fun,
Tim
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Hah! Words of sardonic wisdom. Well said, teo_audio.
Tim
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eziggy:"Last I checked this is about listening to music not about technical specifications. All components will sound different paired with other components. As with anything high end it is best to demo it, preferably at home and see how you like it."
Hello eziggy,
I agree, auditioning a class D amp, and really auditioning any prospective amp, is best done in your room with your own other system components. I also agree with Erik that using a dowsing rod would likely be an ineffective method for choosing a system amplifier. Critical listening to an amp prospect, preferably during a multi-week in-home trial period if you're able, is probably the better method.
Tim
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Hey Ziggy,
Agreed. My 1st class D amp I bought about 6 years ago, a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS, came with a 28 day in-home free trial. It sounded very good straight out of the box but it kept improving in sound quality well past the trial period. I think its important that prospective class D amp purchasers are aware of this 'break-in period' which may last up to several months.
I'm still not even sure if the class D amps require a break-in period or the listener/buyer actually needs an adjustment period to get use to the sound of the amp. From my perspective, I noticed immediately that the amp was a big improvement over the good quality class AB amps I had previously used for decades (Adcom, Aragon and McCormack) that was pleasantly surprising in its quality but I also sensed it was a fundamentally different listening experience that I thoroughly enjoyed.
It was initially hard to describe what specifically the sound qualities were that gave me a sense of being fundamentally different but the more I listened to the new class D amp, the more it became apparent exactly what these qualities were. The major sound differences I identified were an extremely low noise floor that gave the impression the music was emerging from an inky black and dead-quiet background, improved bass impact and dynamics, a more neutral overall presentation that also was more detailed from top to bottom and a smoothness to the midrange and treble response without brightness or harshness and the ability to portray a solid 3D soundstage that's at least the equal of my previous class AB amps.
All of the above just further supports our advice for auditioning any amp one's considering in their home and system prior to buying when possible. I just wanted to let prospective class D amp buyers about what to expect.
Later,
Tim
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Hello turnbowm,
While it is true that class D amps in general emit radio frequency (RF) energy that can interfere with AM/FM frequency reception, class D amp designers are very well aware of this issue and typically make containing, controlling and attenuating these RF emissions a top priority in their designs.
If all class D amps were to be tested and ranked by RF emissions, however, I suspect the results would vary significantly between amps and that they'd also likely be directly related to the skill level of each amp's designer and the new retail price of each amp.
OTOH, I've purchased and used many stereo and monoblock class D amps in my system ranging in price between $630 and $2,200 and have never had AM/FM reception problems in my rooms with any of them.
Tim
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Hello niodari,
In retrospect, I’ve been so impressed with class D amps in general that I’ve consistently upgraded to better performing examples over the past 7 years or so. I began my class D journey with what I consider the budget king of D amps, the Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp, that was a good quality example at the exceptionally low bargain price of $630 at that time.
Mainly out of curiosity a year later, I bought an even more competent class D stereo amp, the Emerald Physics EP-101.2-SE, on sale at the time for about $1,000 and a noticeably superior performer.
About another year later after reading numerous very good reviews, I bought my 1st pair of mono-block class D amps, the D-Sonic M3-600-M for $2,100/pair that were and are the best performing amps I’ve ever driven my main Magnepan 2.7QR speakers with by a large margin. I’m still utilizing these as my main speaker amps about 5 years later in my combo 2-ch music and HT system. My 2 stereo class D amps I purchased have been used in my system as surround sound channel amps with very good results and are still going strong.
So, I’ve been climbing the class D upgrade ladder for the past 7 years and enjoying the entire slow ascent continually along the journey. I’ve progressed from good performance rung to the better rung and I’m currently on the very good class D performance rung of the ladder. Now, I have a keen urge and curiosity about the prospects for my overall system performance quality if I climb another rung higher and purchase one of the best class D amplification examples currently available.
I currently believe the current top rung of the class D ladder probably equates to the newly released Merrill Audio Element 118 monoblock amps or the Technics model which both utilize the GaN extremely fast switching transistors. Interestingly, I was talking to Merrill of Merrill audio recently and he stated he’s discovered the older GaN transistors sound better than the newest ones.
However, being now retired and on a reduced fixed income, buying a pair for of either for about $36K/pair for them would likely entail me being required to dine on cans of cat food for my remaining years. As attractive as that sounds, I’ve decided to instead settle for the penultimate rung on the class D upgrade ladder by eating tastier meals and purchasing one of the following 2 preamp and amp upgrades for my system soon:
Option#1. For a total of about $10K, buying a pre-owned Levinson 326S preamp and a pair of Merrill Veritas mono-blocks. Merrill also told me he’s getting numerous pairs of Veritas back as trade-ins that he’s doing complete inspections on and reselling for about $5K/pair.
My requirements for a preamp are at least two balanced xlr inputs, at least one balanced xlr output, a convenient HT passthru capability, a precision volume control with 1db or less adjustments, under about $8K used and a good remote.
Option#2. For a total of about $12-$14K, buying a pre-owned Mola Mola "Suite" consisting of a Makua preamp and a pair of Kaluga mono-blocks.
Both of these options are about 50% less than new and I’m currently in the middle of my search for units in very good condition and with a current preference for option#2. Unfortunately, I’m unable to audition either option in my system but I’m looking for dealers or individuals, within about a 100 mile radius of Indianapolis, who may have any of this gear available for demo and purchase.
My goal is to purchase within the next month. I’ll also have a Parasound Halo P6 preamp w/remote and a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks, both in very good condition, available soon for purchase at very reasonable prices if anyone’s interested.
Tim
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Hello niodari,
Yes, my goal is to stay in class D, too. I've tried to keep up with class D developments for years now and I've been thrilled with the performance of all the D amps I've purchased thus far. The downside of this is I'm constantly learning about class D amps that get very good reviews and I'm always curious and want to give them a try in my system, which can get expensive.
My current plan is a good example. My system is performing very well right now and my D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks are excellent for both music and HT. My Parasound Halo P-6 sounds very good but I'd like a smaller preamp, perhaps a class D with a smaller remote and a more precise volume control. I really have no good reason for buying new class D mono-blocks other than very good reviews on the Mola Mola Kalugas and the Merrill Veritas along with a curiosity about how they'd perform in my system.
I'm currently planning on buying the Mola Mola Makua preamp and Kaluga amps in the next 30 days or so but I'll also look at the Megaschino and Cherry dac if it can also serve as a single balanced xlr input preamp.
When the new equipment arrives, I'd definitely be willing to sell my D-Sonic amps to you if you'd like to buy them. They're both in flawless operational and cosmetic condition. I believe I still have their original packaging and manual. They were $2,100 new and would probably be asking $900 for the pair with their pair of isolation platforms available for purchase for an additional$100. My system details have some photos of both and, if you live close enough to Noblesville, Indiana, you're welcome to stop by and check them out in person if you'd like.
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello niodari,
Sorry, I forgot you're in Mexico. I'll be down in a couple days and I'll bring the amps. Don't worry, my wife and I will be out of your place by Spring. Winters are a bit cold up here.
Looking forward to your impressions. I've been reading about the Cherry Megaschino and it seems like a good one.
Best wishes,
Tim
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Hello atmasphere,
As I understand it from you and Bruno Putzeys as a layman, there is no such thing as too much feedback with class D amplification. The generally accepted concept that feedback negatively effects the sound quality of traditional linear amplifiers may be true, but this aversion to feedback doesn't apply to class D amplifier design. Very high levels of feedback, in an intelligently designed class D amp, are actually utilized to optimize the sound quality throughout the entire audible frequency spectrum.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Thanks,
Tim
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atmasphere,
Thanks for the very good info on amp feedback.
On a totally different subject, I just bought a pair of pre-owned Magnepan 3.7i speakers to replace my current almost 25 year old 2.7QR panels. I'm thinking my Levinson 326S preamp (very quiet, neutral, detailed while portraying a very good soundstage) and pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D monos (1,200 watts into 4 ohms) will be a good match with the 3.7i but I won't know for sure until they're installed tomorrow and can begin listening.
I'm just going to listen, evaluate and hopefully enjoy this combination for a few months. I have high expectations but, as we all know, the proof's in the sound quality and our subjective opinion.
If I don't thoroughly enjoy the results, I'll probably be in the market for a new pair of fully balanced monos, preferably class D. I'd love to audition your new class D amps if I'm in the market, before I purchase anything else and if they'll be available for audition and possible purchase in the next 3-6 month timeframe. I understand if you're currently reluctant to share any definitive information but would appreciate any info you're comfortable sharing at this point. I'm very curious and interested in listening to your efforts.
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello atmasphere,
Thank you for your very good update on your class D amp development. Very interesting, although not very surprising, that you decided to utilize GaN FETs in your design given their ultra fast switching on/off capacity which enables the elimination of dead-time and lowers distortion. I’m not sure if you discovered yet what Merrill, of Merrill Audio, stated that he has discovered: that the newer GaN transistors don’t perform as well as some of the older examples.
I remain very interested in listening to your new class D amps in my system. I recently upgraded my system with a pre-owned Levinson 326S preamp and Magnepan 3.7i speakers. I’m currently using a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-block class D amps rated at 1,200 watts @ 4 ohms that are performing very well driving the 3.7is.
I understand the 3.7is likely don’t require 1,200 watts to perform optimally but I believe they benefit from a ready and steady availability of high current. My issue is that I’m uncertain if 200 watts @ 4 ohms would be sufficient for them. I’m also uncertain whether there would be a net overall sound quality gain in my system by utilizing very well designed class D amps, with reduced dead-time and distortion, but perhaps less than optimum current availability. I’ll likely only find out for certain by auditioning them in my system.
Have you made a decision yet on whether you’ll be offering free limited in-home trial periods for auditioning?
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello atmosphere,
Please don't treat my occasional post questions directed to you, and your vast amp design knowledge and experience, as anything even remotely close to an attempt at rushing your class D amp design and development efforts. Of course, I understand you're going to take whatever time you deem necessary at every progression in the nuts and bolts process of creating a high quality class D amp that bears your company's well respected name.
My layman aim remains the same, which is just to seek out and utilize high quality system components that maximizes my music and HT listening experiences. Having subject matter experts, such as yourself, explain things to me in an easily understood, relatable manner while educating my posterior along the way just happens to be a much appreciated bonus. Thank you.
For example, your concern about excessive damping factors on class D amps is something I can relate to due to experiencing its effects on my system's performance. I've previously driven a pair of Magnepan 2.7QR speakers in my system with three different brands/models of high powered and high damping factor class D amps, two stereo units and a pair of mono-blocks. It was immediately very apparent to me with all three that the bass response was more prominent than with any of the numerous non-class D amps I'd previously used on these same speakers.
At the time, I considered this very powerful, taut, dynamic and prominent bass response the best I'd ever experienced on the 2.7QRs, that are 3-ways with a rather large 623 square inch dipole planar-magnetic bass panel section on each speaker. However, I subsequently purchased an Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system with all four subs powered by a 1K watt class AB amp/control unit. I continued to drive the 2.7QRs full-range (down to their rated bass extension of 35 Hz +/- 3db) with the class D amps and the 4-sub bass system was restricted to reproducing only the bass content from 20-40 Hz.
The bass with this setup was definitely improved in power, detail, dynamics and especially realism and naturalness. Over time and in retrospect, I slowly became aware that while I really enjoyed the bass response solely reproduced by the class D amps and the 2.7QRs, the bass sounded much better with the AK Debra system included. My theory is that the very high damping factors unique to class D amps was truncating the decay times of the bass notes. The four Debra subs, being powered by a class AB amp that has a lower damping factor and did not shorten the decay times of bass notes, therefore allowing the bass to sound more realistic, detailed and natural. Does this make sense to you?
Thanks,
Tim
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audiozenology:"
It's a complex interaction of mechanical resonance, electrical resonance, and mechanical and electrical damping which occurs when you try to stop a woofer faster than it is physically capable of."
Hello audiozenology,
I believe a thorough comprehension of how excessively high damping factors effect bass sound quality requires less concentration on how complex the interaction of forces are and more on the fact that an amp with high damping factors results in it having very firm control over the starting and stopping of a woofer in a conventional dynamic speaker and the bass diaphragm section of a planar-magnetic or electrostatic panel speaker.
The critical part is to have a thorough understanding that it's the amp's firm control over the bass transducers that can cause truncated bass tone decays and that a thorough understanding of the exact complex interactions involved are less important.
Tim
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Hello serhan62,
I've become a big fan of class D amps through research and personal experience gained by using several examples in my own system. But I believe all amp types have their pros, cons, compromises and limitations and that class D amps are not the best choice for everyone.
I believe it's very important to match the amp(s) used to one's speakers while also considering one's personal preferences and tastes. I understand the truth is that all amp types are capable of providing excellent sound quality and performance results when properly matched to one's speakers but that all amp types are not suitable for all speaker types.
I also know that, once an individual discovers a good match between amp(s) and their speakers that performs well and they enjoy the sound quality of or even numerous combinations, I have absolutely no interest or concern in dissuading them from utilizing that combination or combinations.
Tim |
Hello bolduque,
It seems you’re at the stage that I, and likely almost every Audiogon member, was at in the early point in their interest in the home audio hobby. You’ve built a decent system that you enjoy and are interested in exploring how you can make your listening experiences even more enjoyable.
Welcome to the hobby that, from my experience as a now 61 year old still very interested in home audio and video, will likely become a lifelong pursuit and journey for yourself. My main advice to you is to educate yourself and broaden your listening experience. This involves reading beginner’s guides to home audio, joining multiple audio forums (joining this one is already a very good start) and listening to as many audio systems as you can at friends, relatives and audio stores to find out what’s possible, the costs and what you like. There’s a lot to learn and listen to. I think an important skill to develop is restraint and resisting the urge to buy too soon which almost all salespersons will be constantly urging you to do. I suggest you take your time, save your money, learn as much as you can and take notes.
It’s really a balancing act since you’re only going to improve your system by buying stuff but you want to make sure it’s the right stuff for you. When I was just starting out, I recall setting a general budget and planning out your system improvement steps.
I could probably write a book on this subject but don’t really want to do it right now on this post. So, I think your inclination of progressing from an AVR to separate components is a good first step but I’d like to learn more about how you use your current system (audio only or audio and video?), the types of music you listen to (rock, classical, jazz or other? and at what volume level?)what you like and don’t like about your system, your current room details and what you’d like to improve. If you let me know this, I can better assist you.
Later,
Tim
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"When you say you’ve found a nice deal on 2 S500 monoblocks for $2k, I hope that’s new, as when in stock they are only $799 each new!" https://www.reddragonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers/products/m500-mkii?variant=248192058
Hello bolduque, Georgehifi is correct, the Red Dragon 500 monoblocks were discontinued about a year ago and the price was reduced to $799 each, while supplies lasted. The supplies only lasted a few months on both the silver and the black color options of these monoblock models because they're high quality amps that received very good reviews that were offered at an extreme bargain price. I had even attempted to buy a pair of these amps as soon as I heard of the clearance price reduction but they were already sold out of both black and silver models. Here's a copy of the Positive Feedback review that inspired me to try a pair of Red Dragon S500 monos:
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/red-dragon-audio-m500-and-m1000-mkii-amplifiers-2/
I called Red Dragon at the time and sent an email to them a couple of times requesting a back order and any upcoming new models. Here is their response:
"Ryan Tew Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 3:17 PM
Hi Tim We are working on an entirely new MkIII generation and hope to have them ready later this year. Thanks, Ryan Tew President - Red Dragon Audio www.RedDragRyan Tew <[email protected]>Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 6:36 PMto meHi Timothy,
We are working on a redesign of the chassis and at the same time we're pushing a new product lineup (and a MkIII version of the S500 and M1000).
Look for us to be ready in 2020Q1 Thanks,
Ryan Tew
President - Red Dragon Audio"
Well, it's already the 1st quarter of 2020 so it seems like Red Dragon's new MKIII version debut of their amp lineup should hopefully be introduced and available very soon.
You asked on your first post about the differences between the various class D power modules: ICE Power, Hypex and Pascal. The truth is there's more to the overall sound of any class D amp than just the power module used. In general, all these class D amp modules have such low distortion and background noise levels, are so accurate, neutral and detailed that even small variances in their associated components and design can result in variances in performance; things such as custom input boards, the switching transistors employed, the switching carrier frequency filters and perhaps even the specific carrier switching frequency utilized.
As I believe you know, utilizing separates rather than your current AVR requires not only a separate stereo amp or monoblock amps, it also requires a separate preamp for connecting and switching between the sources used (turntable, CD, dac/streamer, etc.). Class D amps are in general so neutral that the sound quality of the preamp will be a critical factor in your system's overall sound. I still believe the speakers are the predominate factor in overall system sound but, if class D amps are in the audio chain, the preamp becomes the 2nd most critical factor in a system's overall sound quality.
Later,
Tim |
