Do the amps not have enough power?
Did you get them refurbished? On another thread you asked if you should be concerned about their age and the answer is yes.
MkIIIs can work quite well if in good condition! But if they've not been refurbished (new filter capacitors in the power supplies at a minimum) then they won't be showing you what they can do!
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Get a second hand Parasound Halo Integrated at 160wpc@8 ohms and 240wpc @4 ohms. They can be found for $1500-1800.00. |
Mk III's can be upgraded, to perform as well as much of what's currently available. Of course; that depends on how far one takes the, "upgrades". The most critical components, in tubed equipment, are the transformers. Dynaco's were excellent. Ralph didn't mention, whether he's refurbing/upgrading the Mk III, but- if so; you wouldn't regret the move. If not; there are others, that do. |
I haven't touched the Dynaco's, Was thinking not to modify them and maybe just do the power supply filter capacitors (where are they?) because they are "survivors" I just dig the period-correct look and the perfect minor patina. Can I replace some bits to improve the sound and keep them as is? The main reason I want to upgrade it to try more power, most of what I read says if you step up the "current", Wilson's will really sing. Also, I am not experienced, but I can use a soldering iron and I'm not afraid to dig in and do the work myself. |
Crazy, So many opinions online I have my head spinning. I think I want to compare the new against the vintage, decide and keep the ones I like the best. I'm not into modifications for some reason, I like most things original. Maybe this is foolish thinking? The strange thing is I feel as with my current set up I hear glimpses of what the Wilson's can do. Could be the DAC, Could be the Pre or the Amps. I just don't have enough listening experience to know. But I need to pick a place to start and I figure I will work my way from the speakers upstream, trying to improve each time along the way |
Was thinking not to modify them and maybe just do the power supply filter capacitors (where are they?) because they are "survivors" I just dig the period-correct look and the perfect minor patina. Can I replace some bits to improve the sound and keep them as is? The main reason I want to upgrade it to try more power, most of what I read says if you step up the "current", Wilson’s will really sing. @johnwahl This is a truly bad move when dealing with older electronics!! **They will not survive long if the filter caps are not replaced (they will eat the power transformer) and they won’t sound right as well.** One of the filter caps is that aluminum Your speakers are asy to drive and don’t need ’current’ (which can’t exist without voltage, the two together are called ’power’); our local dealer demonstrated your speakers at his store with our M-60s as they made the speakers sound better than any other amps in the store, and the M-60s don’t have a lot of that ’current’, although they easily made power into the Wilsons. You really need to get your amps refurbished before you send them down the road, or else be alright with the knowledge that you have no idea how they actually sound or how well they play the Wilsons. Its that simple. |
That is very good advice, thank you. I will defiantly be getting the filter caps replaced, and the amps refurbished. I would still like to compare it to something else and keep what sounds best to my ears. I like the Dynaco's and I believe they will only get better, all that said I do want to compare and contrast a little for fun. What else should I replace on the Dynaco's other than the power supply filter capacitors? I trust your opinion and thank you! |
I have a question. Can you borrow an amp or two. Have any nutty friends with a shop full of unused equipment? (self reflection). High current SS amps are everywhere, CHEAP.. You don't need a new Pass to see if more horsepower is a good idea. I know it is..
I have a few NP designs here, Threshold, Adcom, and I sold my X250s
I think you might be very pleased with the results, for 500-1000. Great amps with, TONS of power.. They will light those Wilson right up, and sound quite a bit better than the MK3
If your gonna go valves then take care of them, they do require maintenance. The MK3 are good units, until their NOT.
Truly you are playing with fire...
Are you sure valves are the way you want to go? I can't see it with your budget. I do see spending less and being a lot happier though.
Amp first, then look at the preamp. Or go integrated and spend 3,000 or so.. and forget about it.. Sell your stuff and recover a few quid..or take it to the nutty friends house and store it...
Enjoy, great speakers...
Regards |
BTW, OP, I wonder how they would sound with class D amps, hee hee..
I was blown away, with my first real set down and class d..Wonderful
stuff!!!
Regards |
A used Unison Unico 50 might be a good candidate given what you’re looking for, and there are two available here now around $2k. |
How did you like the X250? I just missed one that sold and would love to try one, if I can find one I can afford. |
The problem is my budget. How the heck am I going to make Wilson’s sing with so little cabbage. I would like to spend up to $1,000 for the Pre and $2,000 for the Amp. The less the better. Or under $2,000 for an integrated. I have no idea why I want to spend less on an integrated. HELP Why, indeed. That is the question. I never have been able to figure that one out. Anyone with any experience can see integrated amps are by far the better deal for the money. For the simple fact that you never can get the most out of any component without a good power cord and interconnect, at a minimum. So by the time you add those to your pre amp and amp you are always way over budget for way less sound than if you had just bought an integrated. The obvious answer is you should if anything be willing to spend more on the integrated, for the simple fact that it buys you more for the money. So this puts you right at $3k only now in a frame of mind where you can see why if there's one thing worth a stretch its an integrated. And boy are you in luck because there is an awesome match made even better by your particular situation (close, not loud, incredibly detailed revealing speakers that NEED a musical source to sound good) and that is the Raven Nighthawk https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/nighthawk-mk3-tube-amplifier/Totally the way to go. |
Far as upgrading the Mk III, unless you’re fond of the original sound: consider replacing those Black Cat coupling caps and carbon-comp resistors. They’re masking the music. Modern caps and wire wounds are easy to install and (most) will be more transparent. I’ve always found it easy, to replace the old RCA input and speaker terminal strip, with newer/much improved pieces, using the original holes(no chassis butchering). If you really want to step up; there are kits that replace the entire power supply (obviating the unreliable, 525V, Quad cap, etc). Also; kits for replacing the driver board, allowing the use of tubes, better for audio, than the 6AN8 (ie: 6922/6N1P/etc). |
johnwahl OP10 posts04-24-2020 12:01pmHow did you like the X250? I just missed one that sold and would love to try one, if I can find one I can afford. From where your at to where you would go..You would be blown away simple. Remember though, X250 is getting older. But in most cases, if there was a good power source, they would probably last 30 plus years, his stuff is built simply and with good parts, not a boutique, kind of guy Nelson Pass. Longevity, and simplicity, into a cost effective, machine...Great sonics. I’ve yet to hear one I didn't like... They like it warm though.. lol..toasty. Can sound bad if it hasn’t warmed up a hour or so..Day or so if it’s sat a while. let it idle... Regards |
I like the Yamaha integrateds. Now that the A-S2200 is out, good deals can be had on an A-S2100. Solid.
Good luck on your quest. So much fun to do the research knowing you get to pull the trigger soon.
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Try a used Parasound integrated in the used market.
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If you are ok with the sound of tubes, a Used Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated can be found for under $2,000. Not easy to find used and you have to be willing to check tubes and replace, if necessary, and adjust bias. Perhaps there’s a Rogue dealer near you who has one you can demo with your speakers in your room. I am considering a new one having auditioned with Totem Sky towers. Excellent, smooth and musical sound. Plenty of power.
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Send the Dynaco off to AVA for upgrading. Frank can really make them sing!
if you are set on replacing it, Parasound or Crown; bigger the better |
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You are definitely in line for the best integrated amp that you can afford. Krell has made some great ones in the last 10 yrs or so that might fall into your price range.
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Recapping is the Golden Ticket for extending the life and preserving the performance of older amps. I have two systems, one in our main house and another at our cottage, both driven by Crown PS-200 amps from the early ’80s. About 100W per channel unbridged.
Acquired one for $85 out a church in Virginia and another for $125, both on Ebay. Dispatched them to AE Techron, the service mother ship for old school Crowns.
Both were repaired, recapped and bias adjusted, both bills under $300 (each) before shipping. Professional service all the way. One drives Onkyo towers with hi-output connected 125W REL t/5i sub. The other pushes vintage Cerwin Vega speakers with a small 1990’s era powered Jensen sub.
They sing. Some audiophiles look down on the professional grade bullet proof early Crowns, but when adjusted, with a good DAC on the front end, they present a great sound stage with plenty of headroom at adult home use volumes :)
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Try a Yaqin amp from China for 500 or so.I have their tube buffer on the output of my sacd player and love it.You can get a model that's an integrated and has a front mounted switch to turn it into a power amp.Very attractive amp plus you are getting 50 watts per channel. |
For the money, imho, the Simaudio MOON 240i (around $2300 but you may be able to find a deal) is tough to beat. It blew away the rogue Sphinx v3 in my in home audition. It’s worth a listen.
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My latest,
paring a modded
st-70, erring on the side of the original Hafler design with a Rogue Audio Métis Magnum. • st-70 $900
• Metis-$650
• speakers, on the hunt
Klipsch kg-4’s for now
budget fun!
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I am like the idea of VTL, Mcintosh, Rogue, Hegel, and AR. Scrap all of these unless you prefer the McIntosh sound. Find a nice Luxman and be happy.
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I too, was surprised at the sound quality of the Yamaha A-S series int. line.
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A third vote for a Parasound Halo, or HINT 6. Phono stage, good DAC, etc. Will run the Wilson’s nicely. You could even do a P5 (maybe P6) and A23 (poss even A21) around your price point if you shop carefully.
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i have a Synthesis Ensemble integrated (Italian company) that when new, was within your budget. it punches way above its weight class. they don’t make it anymore, but have a number of integrateds that you may want to check out. |
With your budget just buy an integrated amp. Like Millercarbon I am big fan on Raven Audio.....An amp for any budget.
I did look at the sale going on at Underwood HIFI....based on what I saw you can definitely find something to meet your needs.
Good luck trying to find a MAC or ARC at your budget.
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To refurbish the MkIIIs:
Get the filter caps replaced. Replace the bias rectifier. Check the resistors- replace any out of spec. Check the tubes and replace as needed. if you want, get some good coupling caps- stay away from paper and oil caps as they can develop electrical leakage that can mess with the bias.
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I had a pair of MkIIIs for some years that I had rebuilt myself. I really liked them, but have moved on from tubes.
My only comment is that if you choose to move to something else, don't forget there is an active market for the old Dynaco gear. If they are still working, you might get somewhere south of $1,000 for the pair even if they have not been rebuilt. If they have been serviced within the past few years, you are at the $1K mark or plus. Factor that into your calculations when picking a new amp.
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The "Manley Laboratories", "Stingray", would fit your bill. It's the ONLY integrated amp I would own personally. A great and "Award-winning", pre-section, built into an articulate and powerful, two-channel, tube amp. You can find them used/mint for about $1800. I was so impressed that I bought two!
I prefer the older models without the "Dock".
Hee hee, And the remote? It isn't "Built like a tank". It "IS" a tank!
You would have enough left over for a decent set of new valves as well!
Plus, "It really does look like an alien spacecraft"!
(Pointed out repeatedly by a neighbors child)!
Or from above a "Stingray", per it's namesake!
Hmm, How come the "Snapper", and "Ahi" amps don't look like...….
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OP: If you haven’t purchased anything I would strongly suggest that you consider the Luxman L-505-uXii. I sure that you can find a new one for $3600 or so. It’s a little over budget but it will be something to live with a long time. Might even find a used one. Another choice is the Krell Vanguard integrated amp used. I think overall the Luxman is the better choice. FWIW
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@millercarbon - thanks for the Raven Nighthawk referral - I'll add to my radar
@willgolf - thanks for backing up @millercarbon
Raven Nighthawk referral - multiple voices increases credibility beyond a single often subjective opinion
@johnwahl
Most audiophiles start with modest systems then gradually over time purchase/trade up. But for me high-end audio is a bucket list item that I started working on starting in 2016 since I'm north of the century mark. My goal was biggest bang for the buck while maximizing sound quality. I've combed through all the Stereophile and TAS component recommendations and extensively through online reviews and forums. I've also checked out local and not so local audio stores and a few audio shows.
Because I'm analytical and a bit OCD, I've created an extensive 100+ tab spreadsheet of audio components with my research findings (stats, notes, review sources...) including a tab for Integrated Amps ranging from $700 to $50k.
PM me if you want a copy of this Integrated Amp tab or the entire spreadsheet.
For $2-3k:
I agree that getting an integrated not only saves you from extra cabling expense, it's cheaper to make than separates and thus the vast majority of times is the best bang-for-buck. However, don't rule out separates because you may find that super rare deal.
I believe your "all-or-nothing" mentality is causing you stress.
I suggest buying used so you can sell/trade with minimal $ spent and allows you to try different components which could be essential to your sonic bliss.
One used separate that I'll recommend based on numerous online reviews and which I saw a a few audio shows is the Audio Alchemy (now under Elac Alchemy) DDP1 Preamp + DPA1 Amp designed by Peter Madnick of Constellation Audio fame. Whether or not you need, the DDP1 Preamp has a built in decent (for the $) DAC and if desired, you can upgrade the sound with the optional PS-5 Power Supply.
Although @millercarbon (whose posts I've often read and respect based on his knowledge and experience) Raven Nighthawk would likely get you excellent results, at 20wpc would not scratch your "is higher power better?" itch. I suggest you buy used so you can try out several "high power amps" to see what your speakers would do and if you like the sound/change. Your path may even eventually lead you towards a Raven Nighthawk.
Good luck on your audio journey.
Kenny
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The EL-34 VTL is super sweet and can be found around $2.5 k
the Rogues as others mentioned, including new Magnum at $3k and used below that
with your heritage amps you might also find it easy to go with Van Alstine... no bling, direct sale model, rock solid service and reliability and fantastic value
Odyssy makes a very fine SS integrated right in your budget, Klaus is enigmatic but really knows his stuff and great sound... very Bullet proof and an upgrade path if you so choose...
iF you want a tech with great ears to go thru your old gear, Mike Samra of Saginaw is superb.
have fun, enjoy the journey and the music
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Another vote for a Parasound Integrated; simply the best integrated under $3000. Good luck!
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Parasound A21 plus a quicksilver tube preamp |
Keep the Dynaco’s , put them in the closet . Get a SS amp . About a year from now , re cap and re tube the Dynacos . I prefer the Winged C’s for power tubes ( my taste ). I regret parting with my original pair . Years later , I wasn’t happy with my reproduction pair . I have a friend who Recently parted with two Rogue powered systems at the same time . He went Bryston 3B(2), and McIntosh hybrid . He stated both were a huge improvement over his Chronus Magnum and his M-180’s . But at your price point and power requirements, I’d go Parasound . Happy hunting , and you’ll regret parting with the Dynaco’s. Cheers , Mike B . |
@johnwahl Hi Everyone can it be done? Sorry, the answer is no. Not within your budget, and even with a bigger budget, the combination of your listening environment (Condo) and Watt 3/Puppy 2 speakers do not complement each other. My advice is to sell the speakers and start over, or continue with what have. Don’t waste your money chasing something that’s going to be next to impossible (within your budget). I’ve owned these speakers for almost 25 years, and 2 of those years were in a Condo. I can tell you based on my experience, you will not make the Wilson’s sing, and especially at low volume listening levels. Think of these speakers as rock monitors. The louder you listen, the better they sound. Unless you live in a condo with a basement, I would assume you are limited to speaker placement if this is an apartment style unit. Wilson speakers are very sensitive to placement within the room and you may not be able to set them up properly. The recommendation for the Raven Nighthawk is probably one of the worst I’ve seen on these forums. It’s a 20W tube amplifier, and Wilson Audio specs the Watt3/Puppy2 as 30W minimum. Check out Terry London’s review of this amp. He states it shouldn’t be used with low impedance speakers (" The Nighthawk only produces 20 watts per channel; however, unless you have very inefficient speakers (less than four ohms nominal/lower than 85-dB efficiency")) . These speakers dip down to 1.7ohms (check the frequency range where this is happening on Stereophile - not good for your needs). I’m not saying the Raven isn’t a great amp, but with these speakers, it’s not a good match at all. John Atkinson says " But the Puppy is definitely a woofer rather than a subwoofer, to judge by these measurements". So you won’t get much punch out of them at low listening levels. |
Thank you, everyone, really great stuff here as usual.. The Condo and set up are so important. And you are correct, these speakers sound great the louder you play them. I have a large listening room and plenty of space to move the speakers wherever I want. 23x26" open room with high ceilings. What type of speaker would you all recommend for low and medium listening levels in my environment? I sit 6-8 feet from the speakers. High Efficiency, Low efficiency, Horns, Magnepans, Towers, Large Bookshelves, Large Woofers, Small Woofers? etc...I would like to get a little bass and a nice full sound at the levels I can play (low-med) without a visit from the cops. I don't know enough to pick the right type for my space. If you recommend a specific brand, Size doesn't matter and, looks are important to me I like ZU? And others with good materials and build quality. Under $3,000 used, the less the better. Buchardt? Best, John
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The Dynaco mod you want is the driver board replacement from VTA. Do the mod they offer and you'll be more than happy. Much more. And you'll be able to do it for a small amount of money. Unless of course you WANT to drop thousand$ on something new and shiny. Two updated driver boards and parts are around $100. If you don't want to do the work, they can do it for you for $50 labor. It's THAT easy. They also have optional mil-spec caps if you want them, new speaker posts, etc. An upgraded pair of Mark III amps would actually please you better than a Mac 275. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/MK3.htm |
Another option is restore the Dyna MK IIIs to their original schematic and specifications. I did that with my MK IIIs. All new resistors and caps but stock values. With the new higher quality parts it has several advantages. One of the main ones is that it will match the manual and published schematic drawings. I have owned my pair for 46 years and this is the second complete rebuild. I like this rebuild better than the original kit build or the 1990 rebuild. All parts are readily available. You can see details of mine at
https://dynacotubeaudio.forumotion.com/t3641-kiwame-rebuild-of-my-mk-iiis If you decide to go this route send me a note and we can discuss the many options.
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Another endorsement of the Yamaha integrateds if you're not married to valves. The A-S2100 is the sweet spot among Yammy's three higher-end integrateds. Although it had been a bit above the OP's budget, as @gemoody pointed out, there should soon be deals to be had with the intro of the new S2200. The 2100 is a beautifully engineered, rock-solid, sweet-sounding integrated which I owned prior to moving to a Pass. And at $3,500 vs. $9,000, the Yammy gives Nelson's wonderful machine a real run for it's money both in terms of SQ and value. Obviously, an audition would be called for to see how much joy it could inspire with your Wilsons and your room. |
You may try Schitt Freya pre and Crown Xls 2502 to drive your speaker.
I drove power hungry Raal Sr1a headphone by Crown Xls 2502 with good result.
It sounds very fast and exciting without hot edge.
But Freya will give some warmth to the sound.
You can also tune the sound by tube rolling in Freya.
RCA gray bottle 6sn7 will give warmer sound while Sylvania GTB made in 1950's give more neutral sound.
Even with the cost of Nos tubes, total will be under 2.5k$.
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I have a lovely functioning Dynaco ST70 in original condition in a second system with a really old pair of DM something B&W speakers. As infrequently as I listen to this system, I realize I don't really want to let the Dynaco go.
If you don't really need to sell your Dynaco's, I would hold on to them. Might be one of those you really wish you didn't sell.
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Johnwahl --- speakers at $3K to fill your room. How about PureAudioProject? If you want big sound - Tekton.
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