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Thoughts on Tube vs SS amplification for Sony SS AR1s

Hi all~
Was hoping someone with more knowledge than me may be able to help clear up some confusion I’ve been having.
I recently was able to acquire my ‘unicorn’ speakers, the SS AR1s.  4 ohms, 88 dB, 28hz-60khz.
i have an integrated tube amp, the  Luxman LX-380, which on paper doesnt seem to deliver a lot of power for these speakers (14 w into 4 ohms), but i have been really surprised by how full/robust everything sounds with the Luxman in place. I had been advised that a more powerful SS amp (‘at least 200 w per channel!’)  would be needed to get the most out of the SS AR1s (and i have had a lot of SS amps in the past), but To be honest I’m pretty impressed with how it sounds already - So,  i was just hoping someone with more experience here could weigh in? Is it necessarily true that tubes just aren’t a good match for a speaker of this sensitivity? Would a more powerful amp like the luxman mQ-88uc (25 w into 4 ohms) be worth looking into? Would a powerful SS amp really make these speaker sing (and i just dont know what I’m missing)? I want to take advantage of the low-end of these new speakers (which is the main difference from my previous pair), so looking for some guidance re tube amps and exerting control over speakers like these.

thanks much!
sfmorris

Showing 6 responses by georgehifi

georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 

Hey George
Thanks for the thoughts - even the mono block ma9s2 you think would be a poor fit?


No one has done bench tests on these, They "may" be ok, but they only have 6 outputs per channel, and they only spec them 8ohm to 4ohm wattage’s, no mention of what can be done into 2ohms or less.

So I would say no, as if they did well with even higher wattage’s into 2ohms, it’s in their best interest to say it.

You have a pair of iconic speakers, that yes are a pig to drive. That if were made today would be well over the $27k they were back then, more like $50k today. Give them the amp they deserve.

Cheers George
georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 
How in the world does the low watt tube Luxman produce wonderful sound paired with this very difficult speaker load?

It may sound good to him, I guarantee he has "not" yet heard these speakers at their best though.

If it sounds good to him, then why change anything.
He started this thread for a reason because he has doubts.

I had had my eye on a few options (in keeping with the Japanese hi-fi theme of the speakers - i have a soft spot for these brands)
- accuphase e650
- marantz ma9s2
- Yamaha a s3000
Don’t draw conclusions with these amps, they are good integrated amps for normal loading speakers, but not for the nasty loads the Sony’s present


Cheers George
georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 
When Sony wants to make a state of the art product- it delivers!


Yeah you got right, here’s their 3 way ESL’s they made way back 110kg each, I heard the Emperor of Japan had a pair.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-SS-R10.html

Cheers George
georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 
sfmorris OP


The combination of 3ohms and -60 degree phase angle at around 70hz (right in the bass power region), makes it look more like 1-2ohm loading to an amp. Then a continual load from there of 2.7ohms out to 500hz. Very tube, and many weaker solid state amps unfriendly.
In fact looking at both graphs, this Sony speaker to me looks even worse at 70hz (because of it’s -phase angle) than the "king" of unfriendly speakers to drive, the Wilson Alexia!!!!.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/1213Walexfig01.jpg

These Sony’s seem to be just like the Wilson Alexia, a "real pig" of a speaker to drive, but once driven correctly the rewards are both are something to behold. I’ve heard the Alexia’s driven with Gryphon Antillion Evo, and it’s a sound that you will never forget and always strive to get yourself.

Cheers George

georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 
sfmorris OP
@george accuphase seems to have some good integrated that double through to 2 ohms. Do you have any personal suggestions?


Yes, my order would be.  

Gryphon Diablo 120 or 300 if you have the funds
https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/diablo-120/
https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/

Parasound Halo Integrated. Hint-6
https://www.parasound.com/hint6.php

Hegel H190
Hegel integrated amps "maybe" but from tests the 160 couldn’t really do even close to doubling into 2ohms, they only managed a 20w increase from the 4ohm figure.

Same with the Pass Labs Integrated, on test they don’t increase too much both channels driven from 4 to 2 ohms

Cheers George
georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 
sfmorris
Thoughts on Tube vs SS amplification for Sony SS AR1s

Forget tube, your going to need a "good solid state amp" that can deliver copious amounts of current in to 2ohms, if you want the bass of these to give their very best.
With the speakers being 90db you don’t need a huge amount of watts, 100-150w @ 8ohms will do, but they need to double those watts into 4ohms "and nearly double again into 2ohms", indicating good current delivery.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/711SS1fig1.jpg

Stereophile bench tests
The impedance drops below 4 ohms for much of the midrange, reaching a minimum value of 2.7 ohms between 350 and 400Hz and at 95Hz. The electrical phase angle (fig.1, dotted trace) is also quite severe at some frequencies; the combination of 3.4 ohms magnitude and –53° phase angle at 70Hz, a frequency where music can have a significant amount of energy, will require the Sony be used with an amplifier that is not fazed by 2 ohm loads.

Cheers George
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