Not entirely sure of your point of misunderstanding per se, but what I believe you are (rightly) making a case for is the idea of a hardwire bypass. IOW, get rid of the (invariably inferior) connector on both the wire And the connected component - to make for a direct wire-to-wire connection. That's how I roll, actually. But, I'm not entirely sure from that why you might say that the speaker wire was itself unimportant...?? Maybe you mean to say that the 'quality' of the wire may not be as important as simply getting rid of the weak point of the connectors? In that case, I think I might agree with you!
Thinking out of the box here. It might make some defensive
I was thinking, that all the different wire constructions and purities is pointless if they are tied to a connecter. How can the signal carry the purist signal when it has to be compromised by the mercy of a connecter. Why not make a solid wire out of the connecter and use the bare wire for the connecter? Same end result. I’m not an engineer but it seems to me it would sound the same. Right? The end product is only as good as its weakest link. I’m beginning to think speaker cables are too over rated . I switched out my $1500 cables for some 10 gauge $20 copper wire with bare ends and I will say if there was any difference it was slight. I do know my amp doesn’t clip like it used too. And music is louder and more dynamic. I tried some 12 gauge and couldn’t tell any difference from the 10. And yes all the cable lengths were 8 foot. If you want the purist signal then you would have to take the wire and run it right through the speaker and bypass the terminals. So my question to the electrical educated members here is how can the signal arrive intact if it has to be transmitted through a connecter and then to the speaker terminals. It makes me think speaker wire is not all that important. I’m just saying. I don’t mean to be starting a war here.
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My point is why pay for all the fancy wire when in the end the signal has to pass through a connecter and then a speaker terminal. Any perceived advantage of pure exotic copper or intricate twisting of the wire or insulators is a total waste. In the end the signal has to pass through a speaker terminal. How much would a solid gold wire of 10 gauge cost compared to some exotic cables? That makes the most sense when in the end it has to be attached to a gold plated connecter. I wish one of the very rich members would try that and let us know how it comes out!!! Compare it to a gold plated insulated coat hanger wire. I know the main reason to use gold plating is it doesn’t oxidize like copper. So just keep cutting the the bare ends of the copper wire every year or so. Thanks for the responses everybody . I want to get a dialog going so we can have an eye opening discussion. |
My point is why pay for all the fancy wire when in the end the signal has to pass through a connecter and then a speaker terminal. Any perceived advantage of pure exotic copper or intricate twisting of the wire or insulators is a total waste. In the end the signal has to pass through a speaker terminal. How much would a solid gold wire of 10 gauge cost compared to some exotic cables? That makes the most sense when in the end it has to be attached to a gold plated connecter. I wish one of the very rich members would try that and let us know how it comes out!!! Compare it to a gold plated insulated coat hanger wire. I know the main reason to use gold plating is it doesn’t oxidize like copper. So just keep cutting the the bare ends of the copper wire every year or so. Thanks for the responses everybody . I want to get a dialog going so we can have an eye opening discussion. |
Let me make myself clear. It would be no different if you made a solid wire out of the connecter and then used bare stranded copper for the connecter. I was being cynical in my original post. I also read during an A B comparison, the participants could not tell the difference between a coat hanger and an exotic speaker wire!!! |
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blueranger My point is why pay for all the fancy wire when in the end the signal has to pass through a connecter and then a speaker terminal. Any perceived advantage of pure exotic copper or intricate twisting of the wire or insulators is a total waste.It isn't clear on what you base your claim. There are certainly high quality connectors available; there's no reason to settle for cheap, Radio Shack-quality connectors. |
“I switched out my $1500 cables for some 10 gauge $20 copper wire with bare ends and I will say if there was any difference it was slight. I do know my amp doesn’t clip like it used too. And music is louder and more dynamic.” Frankly, the difference doesn’t appear to be “slight” the way you described it. You know, your “amp doesn’t clip like it used to, the music is louder and more dynamic.” |
With the $1500 speaker cables, I could never get a good connection to the speakers because the spades were so thick and hard to attach. I thought about cutting the ends off but it would hurt the resale value. The slight difference I mentioned was in the music itself. The detail and soundstage. It might have been a perceived difference and someone else might have heard no difference except in the dynamics of a better connection. |
Cleeds. You miss my point. Even a top notch connector could not totally pass all the details of an exotic cable. Make a solid wire out of the connecter metal and cover it with an insulated material. I would like to here from an electrical engineer to explain how much signal loss there would be from using a connecter |
blueranger Even a top notch connector could not totally pass all the details of an exotic cableWill you please tell us on what you base this claim? |
blueranger With the $1500 speaker cables, I could never get a good connection to the speakers because the spades were so thick and hard to attachThat's an example of using the wrong connector for the application. It's not really a fault of the connector itself. |
The idea of a connector or various cables interfering with musical detail is pure nonsense. At audio frequencies the cable appears as a simple resistance and capacitance. Connectors are not relevant provided they make good contact. Fancy cables are just a fashion statement - they don’t do anything for the sound if the equipment is well matched and if things sound different then that is simply expectation bias fooling you. Overly thin cables and overly long cables will have high resistances and this can become sufficiently audible in extreme cases due to the modulation of the speaker response in combination with the speaker impedance curve. |
Here is an example of what you’re after (I think) http://www.silversmithaudio.com/silversmith.htm?philosophy.htm~rightFrame. |
This is really quite an old point of contention and to some, going bare ended to the speaker binding post is the way to go. This link, connector tests, is one way to look (hear) at it. All the best, Nonoise |
+1 shadorne. Negative influence of the cable (resistance , inductance, capacitance, dielectric absorption etc.) is proportional to the cable length. Connector in comparison is just a tiny fraction of that and plays much smaller role. As for the gold - it is not very good conductor and it is used only to prevent oxidation. Blueranger, the fact that YOU cannot hear any difference between cables doesn't mean there is no difference. Your hearing is simply not that good and there is no need to get defensive about it :) |
As was brought up before, some of us would not be well served by wiring directly. I have two amps that I swap in and out on a regular basis, so I have two identical sets of 12 gauge solid silver in Teflon tubing, with Furutech locking terminals. The connectors had to be used as speaker terminals don't have holes for bare wire connecting. The sound? In one word, stunning, to me, and any visitors. Too much emphasis is put on cabling and the hype that goes along with it. Once you get a good sounding system, just forget about cables and enjoy your system and the music. Dan |
Due to some overlooked factors that oft arise, comparing cables is fraught with difficulties. For one thing when people switch cables they destroy the subtle mechanical electrical interface of the connectors that takes time to reestablish itself, I don’t know - a few days? Also, many times cables are not broken in when evaluated. Thus, most cable comparisons are invalid. They can all sort of sound the same. It’s not that easy to generalize about cables for other reasons too. Like how many thumbs the tester has, etc. |
Well...I’m missing half a thumb... none the less when I went from a basic stranded cable to a relatively inexpensive AQ type 4, well run-in. Every listener heard a substantial improvement. I wonder how it is we keep debating observable changes because we don’t have the abililty to quantify them in theoretical terms. It seems that the lack is in the science not the nature it attempts to describe. Just felt like I’d like to liven things up in an age old controversy. Oh oh here’s another beaten path... went to a double run in basic biwire configuration. Again each listener, even my thoroughly uninterested other half, remarked on excellent improvement in clarity and smoothness. And I’d told no one there’d been a change. So: in conclusion- it woiks fah me. No ..I don’t have anything to measure it with but ears. Does that mean it’s not real? |
I have only used 16awg and 12awg OFC copper bought at AUD$2.00 off the reel and bare wired it to amp and speakers. To my ears, my system sounds wonderful, clear piano keys tinkle, beautiful clear sopranos, grunge reverb guitar, and all the detail one can expect from a live recording. My system isn't worth $5000, but by gum it sounds good. Snake oil ultra expensive wire is for those who want to show everyone that they are an "audiophile". I challenge anyone to replace my wire and make my system sound better... |
Iwal22. Was that 2nd session at the same time of the week as the first one? Power to the home fluctuates in its quality as most agree on. Was the people’s mood in the 2nd session happy? Like the celebration of a birthday? Job promotion? Birth of a grand daughter etc. Just saying our preceptions of events is influenced by our state of mind or by intentionally altering it. Also just taking the cables off and putting another on can disapate a static charge. Changing cables can also clean the contacts. Also was the temperature and humidity in the room the same? I find that alone has a dramatic effect on the sound. Time and time again every season I always find music sounds better in the winter with the humidifier running. Oh but some people think my hearing isn’t too good. Yes I’m biased against the expensive speaker cables that I took out. So tell me about a good speaker wire with bare endsthat won’t cost a lot and I might try it but they must have a return policy. |
Blueranger, You're not asking if there is a difference between cables, but you assumed there is none and made plausible sounding explanation for that. Now you're seeking confirmation from the others like you. This is as far from open mind as it gets. When you believe, based on some strange presumption about connectors, that there cannot be a difference then you won't hear the difference. I would call it a "Negative Placebo Effect". As for my open mind - When I cannot hear the difference between cables I say it, but I would never say there is no difference. There are people who have much better hearing (including musicians) and people who have much better more resolving systems. It would be arogant on my side to tell them what they can or cannot hear. |
@elizabeth , For connectivity's sake I just soldered a "pigtail", a short length of the same wire of about 4 or 5 inches out of the back of my amp. This is what allows me to change things around with speaker wire. The actual connection is made with simple wire nuts...wire to wire. The connection still has to be cleaned once a year or so, but sounds way better to me than run-of-the-mill connectors |
I have never owned expensive cable, but both myself and other electrical engineers believe that cable type/gauge/weave is pretty insignificant. Unless your cable runs are over 5 yards / meters, you can use anything - as ling as it isn't coax. Avoid wrapping cables around thing or coiling it so to avoid inductance, capacitance and other unwanted effects |
no doubt other variables come into play when making a change in a system, though I doubt my Birthday comes into play. thats why a reasonable person makes a change one at a time and lives with the results for a period of time to assess it under varying conditions. So: speaker wire changes made a great improvement in my system. Under months of observation. Oh and they burned in over time.... yes the sound changes as manufacturing stresses and materials such as dielectrics settle down. Preconcieved denials will prevent hearing these things I suppose, but the observations of so many audiophiles over so many years cannot be ignored. My father is a respected electrical engineer, odd how he disagrees so vehemently with those who look only to one or two electrical parameters to describe such complex interactions. |
It all comes down to Signal to Noise + Distortion Ratio. This is where conductivity and purity of metals, noise (RFI/EMI/magnetic field/static electric field) rejection, anti vibration, wire directionality, minimizing losses at electrical contacts, things of that nature, come into play. I’m surprised electrical engineers don’t grasp that. Aerospace Engineers sure do. 🚀 🤡 |
"I have never owned expensive cable, but both myself and other electrical engineers believe that cable type/gauge/weave is pretty insignificant." I have never bought a taco anywhere else but Taco Bell. Based on my review of the ingredient list from other restaurants, none of them will taste different, so I am sticking with Taco Bell. |
Still, IMHO the wire itself is important. Take for example a 9999 soft annealed silver wire and compare that to a copper wire. There is a HUGE amount of difference in sound quality! Then perhaps try the new Cerious Technologies Matrix cables and compare them to $20 copper wire. (This cable contains silver/ copper, graphene, carbon fiber and ceramic). Much of the wire design combats rf/emi. You would be able to tell the difference in sound quality right away. And I agree connectors are important and their elimination would be great except as noted already in this thread it would make for a cumbersome set up. ozzy |
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@blueranger You write, "I was thinking, that all the different wire constructions and purities is pointless if they are tied to a connecter." BINGO!! Now for the extra distance, I suggest, "I was thinking, that all the different wire constructions and purities is pointless if they are tied to a component with inferior internal wire." |
