Thinking about getting a R2R DAC

Dude! You need to get a hobby: just “joined” two weeks ago, and 112 posts already. Over 1,000 posts in a short few months under those two other usernames, before they kicked your sorry ass out.

Get a real job, and maybe then you can afford a DAC.

Oh... almost forgot to ask: why were you banned twice, and why keep coming back under different usernames?  

And Dannad, I am going to sleep now (yeah, believe it or not, I do work for a living), but before I do, I will leave you with what another member said about you back then when you were posting as AtDavid:

——-

He's not doing these sorts of threads because he cares about audio or high end audio or the people who desire quality audio in their lives. 

Hes trying to crash it, he's trying to tear it down, he's trying to force it to follow HIS dogma. Every post he makes screams this point, either openly, or subtly. 

See it for what it is.

I didn't say it would. I said you can use EQ to get a fairly good mimic of vinyl. I didn't say it would sound exactly like vinyl or a R2R dac, I suggested the Border patrol which distorts more than any other I have seen so it might come close.

Of course you did @djones51 ...

EQ would work as well as an R2R DAC, perhaps better at trying to mimic vinyl.

So let me repeat my question again. If you can EQ to get the same impact or better why are we seeing a resurgence of R2R DACs? Is it because the designers don't understand the magic of EQ, or are they just pulling wool over our collective eyes?

Coming from a MSB R2R Dac to a Playback Design DAC i would say the FPGA is on par and sounds smooth and musical Satisfying as any R2R.

Whilst MSB make very good dac overall the Playback Design is less fatiguing smoother and easier to listen too.

EQ would work as well as an R2R DAC

Every good R2R dac that I've listened to and measured is flat, and not "like" it's been EQ'd.
Good ones have more body to the mids, slam to the dynamics and impact to the bass. They don't EQ for this, it's how good ones sound compared to DS dacs

Cheers George
 

@adam8179
6moons review, page-2, MHDT Orchid, ...how it sounds :) 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/mhdtlab/2/

Post like this put me into confusion, because it looks like my idea that older DACs work better is not that bad.
It's a lot of years that people says that my system sounds very natural, not like others, and I'm completely satisfied with how it sounds. So, after a lot of time, I discover that my thirty y.o. EAD 7000 is R2R, uses an AD1862N-J like the Mojo Audio Mistique v3, has impressive power supply, great jitter control. I've put it to work magnifically with liquid music thanks to a Yellowtech PUC-2 unit and a normal foobar player (downsampling to 16/44.1khz or 16/48khz).
So I really enjoy music and I'm only willing to try a better EAD (like the 9000 III) or something like a Mark Levinson 30.5.
What am I missing?

let me repeat my question again. If you can EQ to get the same impact or better why are we seeing a resurgence of R2R DACs

I think it's called marketing. It's the DAC en vogue. 

@dannad I’m interested how to read the data point you bring up -- namely that Stereophile has chosen a DAC of the same make for every one of their A+ choices. Very intriguing! It raises a few questions for me.

• Did multiple reviewers all choose delta sigma DACs? Or perhaps this is one reviewer’s listening habits?
• How many r2r DACs do they review -- in other words, is there a rough balance there?
• Do other publications’ "best of" lists also tend toward delta sigma DACs?
• Are delta sigma and r2r DACs similarly positioned in industry prominence?

All these questions are not meant to dispute that the list by Stereophile is significant as a data point, but rather to help interpret it. It could be that r2r DACs are outliers, still; it could indicate that the enthusiasm around them has been whipped up without much basis in fact. It could be that they’re outgunned in getting their products in the hands of reviewers. Or, it could be that Stereophile has come to a certain decision about r2r DACs -- all of them -- such that they simply cannot crack the list. I don’t know enough to do more than speculate. What I know for sure is that I LOVE my MHDT Orchid with an NOS tube. In other words, not much at stake for me in this debate -- other than what other DAC to try next. (I'm coming for you jjss!)

I believe that the following explanation makes a lot of sense;
http://sw1xad.co.uk/technology_post/delta-sigma-vs-non-oversampling-r2r-dac-designs/
So the readers digest version is that it is all a matter of implementation. 
Everything matters and simplicity will beat unnecessary complication most times, particularly for most consumers' budgets. Everything must be taken into consideration and impedance mismatches between the digital source and the DAC account for a lot of problems that many listeners complain of. Everything needs to be implemented optimally just as with vinyl playback. 
Now let me acknowledge that I am biased but I am also putting my money where my mouth is-I have a DAC II Special with USB on its way to me. And as I said before, I heard a top tier Audio Note digital rig at Axpona '19 and the sound was stellar. 

@dannad I see how the Stereophile list helps make that narrower point. Agreed.

A lot is involved and way beyond my knowledge -- and beyond certain quality levels, probably my ability to hear. Good, short video, here: https://youtu.be/McoA82-fi9s?t=73

While Stereophile has always been my go-to for reviews keep in mind they don’t review every DAC (includes the MHDT Orchid) and most, if not all, of the DACs you cite are considerably more expensive. In the Orchid’s case there is an excellent review by 6Moons that is quite consistent with my experience 2+ weeks into owning it. Keep in mind the DAC segment, in particular, is very focused on state-of-the-art features when how it sounds to ones particular ears far outweighs anything else. For $1,300 the Orchid sounds incredible and I have the ability of greatly changing the sound by rolling the analog stage tube. For me, non-fatiguing “musicality” is more important than “analytical” presentation that can sound very etched. To each their own.

Yep. Non-fatiguing. No oversampled or over processed fake echo sound.

MHDT, 16-bit, Audio Note, 18 bit. Proven chipsets. Good transformers. "no over sampling, no jitter reduction, no noise shaping and no re-clocking. Digital filtering removed". Less in the signal path. Paired with single or double triode valves, and wallah!  Less is more.  Engaging music.

@fsonicsmith , that "white paper" from SW1X is pure technical babblegaggery and shockingly ignorant either due to lack of knowledge and/or intentionally. I am not sure what is a worse reason, the former or the latter? So many statements, probably most, in that so called article w.r.t. DS are just laughably wrong.

Sure Dannad, because you know everything. How does your system sound? Is your system both compelling to listen to and satisfying to listen to? Can you find five verified posters-unlike you who is not verfied-to attest to good sound from your system? I bet not. Look up my posts-I don't gravitate in the "digital" forum much. I don't need to. The folks that are on here the most are the folks that are not getting good sound and in search of answers to their problems. I am not in "digital" much because I listen to vinyl 98% of the time. 

You REALLY think this boy has a “system” ? 😂😂

You hate the audiophiles, don’t you Ethan 😂😂

It just so happens that stereophile has recently highly recommended two r2r DACs, the denadrips terminator and the holo audio may. If you read herb reichert column a few months ago on the may dac, he acknowledged that stereophile had not done r2r technology justice.  Delta sigma is definitely not the only reference game in town anymore.

Why do we have to be so tribalistic about DACs, though? Seriously, lots of good products out there, and yours is almost certainly not the "best" in the world. So you bought a dac that somebody else doesn't like... Just ignore them.

what a shame another pretty good, well participated and informative thread ruined

i come here to learn, share ideas and have fun about the passion of hifi and music

if i want to see garbage and get upset i can turn on cnn or fox, or look out the window at the smoke

i’m out

@adam8179 OP: Quote - "Thinking about getting a R2R DAC...I was looking at the MHDT Orchid or the Border Patrol".

Adam, as the original poster you had a question. Some answered to it, others not so much - going in an entirely different direction making extra noise. Funny, kinda like poorly designed converters with added parts and oversampling. As to your original question, either of these R2R NOS DACs will be nice. Good Luck on the decision.

@jjss49,

Good point. The only way to avoid ‘Debbie Downers’ is to not engage them. Sadly, their only agenda is to cause enough chaos so they can satisfy their monstrous ego. 

I did a blind shootout between the Mojo V2x and the Orchid and my updated Ayre QB-9 Twenty.  I kept the Mojo- my wife and kids liked it best too.     

There is a lot of talk here about R2R w tubes and I have had both Delta Sigma and many R2R's. I have an Audio Note DAC 5 special and my wife and I am quite surprised as to how similar it is to my vinyl rig. It took a lot of learning and setup to get my digital rig where it is at and was far more difficult learning curve vs getting great vinyl sound. Literally everything or anything can effect digital and usually to a negative degree. 
The Delta Sigma DAC's seem to be more tolerant of conditions but do not seem have that elusive sound potential regardless of what I did. 

My friend has a Technics SP1200MKii with a fairly cheap cart and it is astoundingly good for what it costs.

Listen to a TT2 ...

In the mid-1980s I often did head-to-head comparisons of the same recording on vinyl (VPI+Grado Arm+Grado cart) vs a heavily modded Magnavox CD player (excellent in its day). There was never any contest. Analog won every time.

All these years later, I’ve worked my way through delta-sigma DACs and fully switched over the R2R & NOS. My NOS DAC is the MHDT Labs Orchid--excellent sound. My R2R is the modest but legendary Audio GD DAC-19. Either one is preferable to delta-sigma for me.

I know R2R & NOS don’t measure well, but so what? Vinyl never measured as well as CD players, and we all know how that ended up. I listen with my ears, not measuring devices.

If I had a big 2-channel system, I would of course test my 2 DACs in that system. And I might (in italics) hear the somewhat diminished soundstage that others describe with R2R/NOS. But in my relatively high resolution nearfield desktop system, soundstaging, no matter how excellent, will never be as audible as in a larger, better-placed system space.

I’m happy with digital now that I have R2R & NOS...I couldn’t have really said that before.

Note: You don’t need to spend mega-$$ to get good sounding R2R/NOS DACs. If you want to, go for it (my dream DAC is the Holo May). But it’s not essential for good sound...

Sure. I will respond instead 😂😂

Questions for you:

1) Why did you have to switch your usernames many times? What happened to AtDavid and Roberttdid?

2) Can you list your audio system?

3) Do you have a real world job?

 

@bjesien I did a blind shootout between the Mojo V2x and the Orchid and my updated Ayre QB-9 Twenty. I kept the Mojo- my wife and kids liked it best too.     

What it's all about, right here. Sounds good to your ears on your system. Better yet, family validation to boot!  Nice DAC btw.  

@decooney Thanks brother I agree.  They all make fun of some of my journeys, but in the end I love hearing my wife sing and my kids dance.  One other thing that the op might want to pay attention to is power supplies. I added a quality external power supply to my Roon Nucleus and that really calmed things down while adding greater focus, space and a more vivid realism.  

@bjesien

"...One other thing that the op might want to pay attention to is power supplies. I added a quality external power supply to my Roon Nucleus and that really calmed things down while adding greater focus, space and a more vivid realism..."

Yep. Helps. Some try different PS units on the MHDT DACs too with success. A good friend just ordered a custom fully loaded Allo version Raspberry Pi with the SHANTI Dual Linear Ultra Low Noise Power Supply Unit (PSU) option. Hope to hear more soon, runs Roon too.

After a lot of research and demoing I have just invested in a CAD 1543 mkII for my pro listening-studio (used for choosing and checking audio files for record companies). It is a classic r2r using a number of the old Philips 1543 chips, and is the most musical dac I have personally heard at any price point. I love its pure simplicity: one USB input only, no filters to mess about with, no external power cord to worry about, one pair of rca outputs, short signal paths, and a well-designed power supply.
Ideally of course you do need to hear your shortlisted DACs in your own system as system synergy is key.

Audio GD makes an excellent one.  I will use the word "excellent" as a conservative description. You rarely see any of their equipment for sale second hand, but every other brand you do.  There is a reason.
If you have not purchased something by now, give them a look see.  Like BAT, you can actually have a conversation with Kenwa, the owner and designer.

I have a vintage MSB Platinum Link DAC from the turn of the century. The frequency display went out and MSB is refurbishing it back to like new. It has two upgraded R2R ladders, one in each balanced output channel because I use single ended triode preamplification and amplification which I prefer. It has a buffer to eliminate jitter and it can upsample to 384 kHz with 24 bit depth. I found it sounds best with my Vault 2i from which I downloaded some 14/96 recordings of symphonies I added to all my ripped CDs when I do not up-sample.
I think you might like a used MSB DAC with the R2R ladder. It has many things newer ladder DACs do not have.

Delta sigma is definitely not the only reference game in town anymore.

It never was in my opinion.
Just had to be use because of sacd/dsd.
It was second rate for doing red book PCM 16/44, 24/96 or DXD conversion.

Cheers George

i am glad the mod cleaned up the garbage in this thread

@decooney 

you mentioned using outboard power supplies with the mhdt dacs... i have three of them, they all have the standard IEC 3 prong plug for power input on the rear panels...

how do you use an outboard PS?

@jjss49
I don’t myself, not yet. However, following up with a friend this morning who’s messing with two different psu units for both his streamer and his dac, the psu is not going to work as hoped for the dac itself. Also validated a few others in the group loop had not gotten it to work on theirs either, not without tearing the whole dac apart. Stopped there...  So I was partly mistaken on this part. Apologize for the premature mis-info. Seemed like a good idea at first. If the psu works in other areas I might order the same and at least try it on my own streamer, and then proceed with possibly piecing together a new streamer myself and use the same psu if it makes a difference. My tube preamp uses a similar large outboard power supply unit, would like to do the same for the DAC.  Nothing confirmed on my end yet on my own system though. Maybe this winter, after the streamer stuff...

@decooney

thanks for clarifying

yes in general, i agree, most dacs short of the gold plated top of line all-in ones can usually benefit from an outboard PS - if the input is suitable for typical good LPS like Pardo, Teradak, S Booster etc..., serving up clean strong 5/9/12/15v DC. These do tend to reduce the noise floor and make the DACs sound more relaxed, some more than others... 

I have a very analog, warm sounding EAR Acute CD player. I purchased a COS Engineering D2v after 15 years. It is probably a delta-sigma type. It has superior resolution. It was compared to the less expense H1 unit. The difference was the H1 had a more open sound rivaling the LP’s liveness and extra deep bass, but thinner mid-range sound. It worked perfectly for my friend’s monitor speakers making them sound louder in the bass and bigger sounding . My D2v rivaled LP’s full bodied mid-range making them extremely listenable for hours but lacking my LP’s open sound on my older speakers which do not have as prominent a high end. Both units are highly dynamic and rival LPs. The main difference I think is that the D2v has a dual switching power supply and the H1 has a single switching power supply. (The twice as expensive D1 has dual linear power supply). Instead of continued searching for a better DAC, I’m in the process of upgrading my speakers for the benefit of both LPs and CDs. I got tired of searching for CD playback in the 2000s after acquiring about 30 different CD players, almost all relative junk compared to an EAR Acute 2005.

@adam8179

My path to satisfying digital began when I purchased a dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC which uses the old-school TDA1543. It was the first time I can honestly say I was happy with digital. After several years using this fine DAC the high-res bug bit and, wanting to hear it in all its glory, I purchased the Chord Qute HD when it first came out. I was wowed and used it until an upgrade with even higher specs was offered. With future-proofing in mind I shipped it off to be upgraded to the EX version.

In the meantime I re-installed the Tranquility and was surprised just how much I missed the sound quality. It seemed at first to be a bit less resolving but after a while I realized the Tranquility was simply more balanced, retaining all of the detail coupled with a natural, beautiful tone. When my newly upgraded Qute EX arrived I kept both DACs in the system to compare side by side. My preference leaned heavily toward the Tranquility.

Since then my entire system evolved and when I learned of the MHDT Lab Pagoda DAC (dual PCM1704) I took a chance on it. That was about 2.5 years ago. I choose it over the Orchid for various reasons, one being the Pagoda is a 24-bit DAC. I do like high-res and want 24/192 without decimation to 16/44.1 (or 16/48). Would I have been happy with the Orchid? Considering the myriad of accolades from others who seem to be seeking a similar sound quality, I would say yes. That said, I love my Pagoda and it’s not going anywhere. Obviously, I think you might be very pleased with an R-2R DAC. Best of luck to you.

Other components in my system:

Sonore microRendu

Decware SE84UFO

Omega Super 3i Monitors & DeepHemp 8 Subwoofer

If you are looking for an organic and natural sound and consider a R2R DAC, go for a pure one, i.e. a well implemented FPGA-based R2R DAC without a digital filter. 

@co_jones 

of course, synergy is the magic ingredient here

it comes in many forms

the process is trying and finding it for your wants and tastes

Will never forget the first time I heard an old version high $ Mark Levinson CD player and the old first version Audio Note DAC.

Call it warmer or smoother or whatever, just sounded very "natural" to my ears years back. No grain or etch. Non-fatiguing. You’ll hear this from many R2R Ladder DAC owners. Simply musical, no oversampling, no overtones, no echo or reverberation sound, simply musical. IF you like it, it can become a must-have acquisition.
Was off to see the wizard for and tried other DACS in between, kept eyes open for a reasonable R2R Ladder DAC.

A decade later tried again to evolve and compared to a new Benchmark DAC3B, used in various applications professionally and home use. Sure, super nice quality, open, transparent, detailed, overly huge soundstage, yet something was just missing. Too perfect, maybe? Not as musical to my ears - even compared to my own MHDT Orchid with upgraded Mundorf caps and nice vintage Telsa tube. Sounded great in stock form, too upgraded caps just for grins, and the stock caps and stock GE 5670 Triple Mica tube supplied in the MHDT Orchid were just fine too. Plug it in, burn it in, and let it go for 90 days and keep listening for the tube/caps to settle in. Same with the Pagoda, a buddy has one in a pro studio for mastering and actually uses it there too, tubes and all!  

It’s all preference, whatever you like and what gels best with your system and speakers, for your ears.

Thanks everyone for this discussion.  It has been very informative!  I've looked up many of the R2R DACs that you guys have suggested and there are so many interesting-looking choices.  In the end, I had to choose something so I went with an MHDT Pagoda DAC.  The MHDTs seemed to be calling to me and with my Buddhist tendencies, I had to go with the Pagoda.  I listen to a fair amount of hi-res music on Qobuz so the Pagoda's 24bit capability sealed the deal.  I'm excited to dip my toe into the R2R DAC world and see how it compares to my Chord Qutest as they are at similar price points.  I ordered it today on the LTA website and I'll give an update when it arrives.  Thanks again everyone!

@adam8179

excellent choice... enjoy!

juin and cohorts @ mhdt in taipei really know what the heck they are doing, and they have great ears... all their dacs have a luscious substantial yet lively sound -- plus if the tonal balance top to bottom doesn’t quite suit your system exactly they can be altered by rolling the tube - if you are buying it new from them be sure to let the tube and whole dac run in for a good month, it will keep improving in that time

less zippy less hifi, but more listenable over long stretches than the qutest