I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
I whole heartedly agree with you, prof, which is why I haven’t spent much on cable myself. However, when I upgraded my amp to monoblocks and needed longer interconnects, I took the opportunity to get some "better" second hand cables. I don’t need speaker cables that long anymore and as Tom has recommended I will be looking to get a shorter run. However, I’m just waiting to get some good, used Goertz at this point.
The two aspects of cables that would cause me to spend additional money isn’t necessarily about performance, but about: 1) its simplicity, and 2) investment potential.
First, you can argue that cable technology really hasn’t changed since it’s invention, short of better insulation materials. Anything else IMHO really doesn’t improve its capacitance or inductance, and resistance is a function of gauge. (Yes, I’m simplifying this a great deal). So unlike equipment that will wear much more quickly or become obsolete due to change in standards or technological advancements, cables will stand the test of time. It’s not like they don’t age, since copper does oxidize and dielectrics can lose their properties over time, but cables age much better than everything else in the audio chain.
Second, commodity metal prices increase over time. In the ’90s, copper sold at $0.80 to $1.00 per pound. Today it’s around $3. (Silver has been much more volatile, with prices of $8 per ounce in the ’90s and around $60 today. In the early 80s, speculators cause silver to run up to $100, so that may happen again. You don’t really see that with copper.)
Therefore, I am more apt to spend money on a nice set of cables knowing that it would last and I could possibly get my investment back if I sold it. I would also most likely go through many iterations of source equipment, D/A converters, processors, amps, and maybe even speakers before I needed to replace the cables.
But the reason I don’t spend additional money on cables is exactly about performance. I just can’t justify spending $3000 on a pair of speaker cables because I just don’t see the performance lift for the money. Alas, I am not a billionaire playboy like Bruce Wayne. Otherwise, I would get those Goertz AG3s and "speakers that you can hug with your arms and your legs." [reference to Lord Business in response to Bruce Wayne when Bruce said "You’re telling me that you have a machine to control the universe but you can’t listen to tunes and surround sound?" - The Lego Move 2014]
“Fortunately I don’t burn much brain-fuel over the wires in my speaker (or otherwise). Whatever Thiel chose, it met the values and specs they were going for, and the results are speakers that are still highly competitive with anything today, whatever wiring those other speakers may be using.
For me I’ve got enough in this hobby to obsess about, without throwing concerns about high end wires/cables in to the fray. I’m as prone to thoughts of upgraditis as anyone else. Having recently acquired a high end turntable, now I have to think about things like VTA, VTF etc - I’ve gotta draw the line somewhere and my skepticism about the high end cable/wires industry makes dropping concerns for expensive cabling an easy move for me.”
Shirley Temple: I don’t go all the way. J. Edgar Hoover: I don’t go all the way, either.
“There’s sometimes a fine line between skepticism and superstition.”
@jafant, I was commenting on the speaker wire/cables that happened to be the subject of discussion at the time. In particular, why some folks aren’t worried about internal speaker wire or even cables. Are cables and internal suddenly not associated gear? Specifically what I was commenting on is why folks ignore or are afraid of wires and cables, after spending a small fortune on good speakers? Even if one is a little overly skeptical, perhaps. Try to keep up with the discussion.
Cables are indeed a critical component of any system. We are beginning the discussion of internal wiring per Mr. Tom Thiel. Much more to discover and contribute in this regard. Should you have any insight feel free to post.Keep the fire on the friendly side.Happy Listening!
Indeed wire is a squirrelly stew. Considerable knowledge exists, much of it in the realm of very high tech-space research-at the fringe of measurement. High end audio "found" wire as a new frontier in the 1970s and some very good work has been done since. There also seems to be considerable borrowing of second-hand knowledge, repackaged with huge mark-ups attached - commonly called snake oil. But most oil has no snake in it and much wire technology is indeed real and crucial for ultimate performance. To the material dynamics of bare wire, add reactance of coatings and influence of geometry, and you see that complexity increases exponentially. We know much less than we don't know.
Exploration of these frontiers adds to the richness of our journey.
Presently I am comparing coil configurations as fed from the circumference or the core. The oscillation of the electromagnetic fields behaves differently in each layout. Opposing opinions exist among intelligent and qualified observers. Most say "it doesn't matter", which I interpret as "I don't wanna go there." Who knows where this road goes?
geoffkaitYes, I am the facilitator here. I built this thread as a Thiel loudspeaker fan for other fans and owners. If you have done nothing wrong- no worries.Happy Listening!
Well stated - tomthielit is an engaging audio journey. I look forward in your findings from research, prior knowledge and experimentation. Exploration is key. Hope you are well and gearing up for Summer.Happy Listening!
Cabling is the least “sexy” part of our systems and, only until quite recently, I never gave power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables a helluva lotta thought. When I more or less finished with assembling the various pieces of hardware I’ve owned the next step, logically, had to be cables. After all, I had an amp, a preamp, a dac, a disc player, a turntable, a streamer/server. What else could I spend money on?
Up until this particular moment I had been satisfied with the stock cables and whatnot that came with most of the aforementioned stuff. Plug it in, listen. Simple. I bought my speaker cables at Radio Shack or Best Buy or whatever.
My first dive into spending more money/improving “things” was with a power conditioner - a Furitech something or other. Okay, good.
Then I read something somewhere, maybe here, about power cords. Hmmm. Okay. I’ll go there.
Got all the cords for everything that didn’t have one built-in. Wow, the cords certainly LOOKED and felt far more substantial than the stock cords. Good.
Then I went to interconnects. Again, the simple color coordinated ones from stock or aftermarket were simply no good anymore - my equipment deserved better. So I got a whole buncha interconnects. Again, good.
Mind you, I’m a pretty cheap bastard when it comes to parting with my money on things that are pretty much completely out of sight 99% of the time, so I went with the “cheapseats” versions of the brands I had read about. Synergistic Research, Furutech, Goertz, Anti-Cables, Cardas, and a few others I’ve forgotten.
Did going from stock cords and interconnects and speaker wire from Radio Shack improve things? Well, yes - but to what measurable degree is debatable. Was it worth the expenditure? Well, again yes. Compared to my amps and preamps the cost to explore the possibilities was negligible. When I noticed an improvement I upgraded within the particular brand, when I didn’t I purchased other brands. S’periments!
When I couldn’t detect a difference or an improvement did I feel that I squandered my money? Nah. People here with far more technical experience than I will ever have convinced me that being curious about improving things is worth the minor expenditures I’ve employed.
The dialogues for/against more expensive cables/fuses etc will never be satisfied. Can you taste the difference between an $8 bottle of wine and an $80? The answer is, sometimes. If you can taste the difference is it just different, or is one better than the other?
Why am I submitting this in this forum? Because until I heard Thiel I was satisfied. After/since my first pair of 2.3’s it’s all been...tremendously fun. I bought my first pair of 3.5’s from a guy in Massachusetts for $800, driving 3 hours to meet him in a parking lot.
$400 apiece for speakers that sounded THAT good? How could I not? Alluva sudden I became aware that making whatever improvements I could made sense. Thiels made me an audiot - and I don’t regret it.
Haven't checked-in in a while as I am currently in the process of moving from Baltimore to Denver for a new position. Glad to see that my fellow Thiel owners are as active & passionate as ever!
I have made several additions & updates to my system. I still have my 3.5's with the Bass Equilizer that was recently repaired by Rob Gillum. Still have an all vintage Audio Research front-end with a D240 MKII solid-state amp (looking out for a second one so I can run them as mono-blocks), a tube LS-7 pre & a tube PH-3 phono stage. Turntable is my vintage Technics 1200 MKII with a Shure M97xe MM cartridge. Interconnects are AudioQuest Golden Gate RCA`s. All power cables are stock, plugged into a Tripp Lite LCR2400 line conditioner. However, I've made three important updates...
First, I am now using a Bluesound Vault 2 for streaming & digital file/CD playback duties. I must say that I am THRILLED with this product! It's so easy to use & it is extremely versatile. I was able to rip my 500+ CD collection to its internal HD & the playback is every bit as good (maybe better?) than I got from my Denon 2900 player. As far as streaming goes, I'm using it mainly for Tidal & can tell you that the sound quality is simply amazing. The Masters/MQA & cd-quality stream decoding is better than my former PC/Meridian Explorer 2 DAC set-up & the Vault doesn't have any issues with drop-outs or other connection problems. The Bulesound app is very easy to use as well & the integration to Tidal & Roon is excellent. I'm considering an upgrade to a Mytek Brooklyn DAC to get even better sound. My only gripe is that the Vault 2 can't rip/play SACD`s. Guess nothing's perfect...
The other thing I did was introduce some MIT gear into my system. I've always been interested in their "Network Box" & "Poles of Articulation" technology. Well, I'm not technical enough to tell you how it works, but after replacing a fine set of Gotham SPK-8 speaker cables with their AVT-3 cables, I`ve noticed that my 3.5's have a fuller bottom-end with much more detail than before. The bass now goes deeper, with much more definition & presence. Mids are similar as before, but the highs are now better controlled, with a detail that never becomes shrill. Any "bright" sounding tendencies are dramatically reduced or outright eliminated. For $120.00 used, best affordable update I have ever experienced!
To add to the MIT experience, I replaced the AudioQuest Golden Gates running from the Bass Equalizer to my amp with a pair of MIT Terminator interconnects. This opened things up further in terms of overall detail & added a dramatically deeper sense of depth. I paid $80 for these cables & again, I couldn't be more happier with the added performance I got for the price I paid.
While I was extremely happy with my system before, I am now blown away with the sound I am getting. While I know that there are certainly limitations in sticking with the "vintage" route to system building, I can't help but feel like I'm getting way more performance & enjoyment than what I'm spending. And it all revolves around the Thiels. While my system components may change, I do know that they will change with the intention of making these remarkable speakers sing ever better!
Thanks for reading & I hope you are all enjoying your music!
Baltimore is a great city for Audio and Jazz music. Denver will offer more audio shops in its general area, not far from Colorado Springs/Boulder either. Much Thanks! for sharing the updates in your system as well.
After some thorough checking trying to explain the major drop off on both the high and bottom end of the spectrum, I discovered that my test sound was the cause. Replacing the pink noise with a sweep test, revealed no major drop off. The pink noise test sound did not have the full spectrum.
Hello folks; just letting you know that no grass is growing under my feet. I am making good strides toward first test samples. The CS2 2 development has dropped back till autumn and the PowerPoint and CS2.4 are now the first-tier projects. The big bundle of ClarityCaps is shipping in a week with lots of trial samples including the custom CSA-160 volt cap. This cap utilizes CSA technology with a 160 volt film to be small enough to fit inboard layouts. The outboard XO option seems to be dropping out via better inboard solutions.
On another front, I learned that Rob got the Klippel Analysis rig from ThielNashville, so it will likely find a place in this development project. World-class tool. Also, I have ordered the new, long-awaited update hardware for my Metric Halo SpectraFoo analysis rig which now sports 32bit x 192kHz ultra clean conversion and 64bit real-time multi-chip processing. This rig is used for recording and concert hall analysis, but applies well to speaker development. I am learning it.
Also, my Classé amps return this weekend from the rehab shop. While
re-capping, I also upgraded the caps and added some bypasses. DR6 (late)
preamp and 2x DR9 power amps. (100 w @ 8 ohms, 200 @ 4, 400 @ 2 ohms, one amp for
each channel. They're old 1990 gear, but I know them well, and love what
they do.
Additionally, some very knowledgeable and experienced folks are contributing to the project. By year's end I hope to have a version or two of upgrade crossovers for the 2.4 and PowerPoint. Stay tuned.
Thank You for the update on Clarity Caps and the like. Hope you and Rob are having fun on the XO project. Good to read that you found a repair shop for your Classe' gear, restored to healthy status. No doubt that you have assembled a very fine team to tackle this project that will benefit us all in the coming months. Keep researching, testing and writing.
did not finish. Had a fine gentlemen drive to my home from Ohio ( I am in NC) and purchase my Thiel 2.7's. He had a pair of 1.6's but was ready to move up. he listened for about an hour and was bowled over. Of course the fact that all gear are the upper end electronics from PS Audio did not hurt. So we packed them up and he is taking them back home. I hope he enjoys as much as I did. Now i have to live with the 3.7's. poor me :(
Good to read that your speakers found a new home- ronkent.
Maybe the gentleman from OH will join us here and talk about his Audio journey. My interest is certainly peaked owning both CS 1.6 and CS 2.7 sets of loudspeakers. I know that you will continue to enjoy the CS 3.7 speakers. Happy Listening!
thanks Arvin and Jafant. he is so excited but he will need to update the rest of the gear as what he currently is using will not show off the 2.7's to anything like they can be. he knows this and is looking forward to his audio journey. I have told him about this thread. the 3.7's are still breaking in but boy do they sound great. I think it would be fun for the readers on this thread to each list five of their most favorite albums when it comes to both great music and great sound quality. I will work on mine
Hi All, Tom very interesting project sound like your making serious headway. I need some input, All my speakers are now at the house and getting ready to purchase Electronics, Tom I found some amps that double into 4 ohms. I have a deposit down on a Lyngdorf MP-50 for all Thiel HT/2ch and want to see what you all thought of the PS Audio Steller 700 to run cs 2.7 mains, MCS1 center cs 1.7 rears and 4 power point 1.2's for atmos? Do you think there smaller s300 is good enough for power points? or just go all the same? OR im way off and there no good? also running two SS2 subs in that room. 2nd situation is the room I have 3.7's in I am considering Lyngdorfs TDAI 3400 Will the 400 wpc in 4 ohm be enough? Rep is telling me because it so clean it will be, also running two SS2 there so that might lower some of there hunger? Want to pull trigger today, What do you all think? The bass integration, Room Perfect and sound of preamp sold me,,,, just want to know what the group thought of amps? Thank you Dn
Dn, sounds like a wonderful setup. I don't know those amps, but can offer some general thoughts. This group might offer opinions of the Lyngdorf. Read between the lines, it might be class D and/or digital amplification, which you would have to sonically evaluate yourself: Get return privileges. It doubles from 200wpc@8 to 400wpc@4. FIND OUT how it behaves into 2 ohms. If at least 600wpc into 2 ohms, it will not distort under a Thiel load.
The Stellar M700 reads well too. Same suggestion regarding 2 ohm performance of at least triple the 8 ohm performance is required.
Regarding the PowerPoints: your dealer might help you through the power requirement equation. Your room and listening levels matter a lot. However, don't underestimate the PP and MCS. I am using PPs for my near-field and mastering monitors, and they are my first XO upgrade project. They and the MCS are in the same hi-end league as the floorstanders. If in doubt, and if you can, lavish amplification on them.
This is a long-shot including some hearsay. Jim began working with a very talented circuit designer at Vifa/Denmark in the mid 80s on what became the SmartSub amps. I have heard that he is or has worked with Lyngdorf. If true, that's a very good indication of excellence. They look excellent anyhow! Sorry that I've never heard them.
I love PS audio, but have not heard those amps either.
I notice that you use the plural for the SS2s. Congratulations. I know from experience that there is enough location information in their signal to warrant careful positioning. Try putting them near the primary speakers and pay attention to arrival times. Avoid putting them out of sight or in a corner as is often done. Even though bass waves are long and therefore near omnidirectional, their leading edge transient component is intact and important. Everything matters.
all i can say is that my 2.7's, and now 3.7's, are very happy with the PS Audio BHK stereo amp. wish i could get the mono blocks but not in the budget.
Excellent idea, 5 favorite albums - ronkenthere are mine;Jamie Cullum - Twentysomething (2004)The Beatles - Sgt Pepper (1967) The Moody Blues - Days Of Future Passed (1967) The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds (1966) Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (1959)
this will get the discs spinning anyway.Happy Listening!
To add to the topic idea proposed by ronkent, in no particular order:
- "Brothers In Arms" Dire Straits (Mobile Fidelity, 180g, 45 rpm) - "The Trinity Session" Cowboy Junkies (Analogue Productions, 200g, 33 rpm) - "The Joshua Tree" U2 (Quality Record Pressings,180g, 33 rpm) - "Time Out" Dave Brubeck Quartet (Analogue Productions, 200g, 45 rpm) - "Blade Runner Soundtrack" Vangelis (Audio Fidelity, 180g, red vinyl)
These albums are what I use most when critical listening is needed, but I can get away by using two more than anything else. First, I use "Brothers In Arms" as my rock reference: "Money for Nothing" is an especially great track because of that explosive drum opening & Knopfler's searing guitar solo. The whole album is simply tremendous sounding, both musically & in an engineering sense.
"The Trinity Session" by the Cowboy Junkies is the second one. The entire album was recorded at Toronto's Church of the Holy Trinity using a single microphone, so the feeling you get is very intimate & raw...you can hear every little breath, fingering on fret boards, foot taps, etc. The recording is so revealing. But, most of all, it's Margo Timmins' haunting vocals that make this a reference album. If the female voice is the most difficult instrument to record & reproduce well, this album will show you what your system's capable of. I love this record...
hi Guys, thanks for playing. this is tough as i could have easily listed 50. Half my collection is classical but i am going to focus on pop and rock since i play it more often when trying out new stuff. Great list Arvin as i like all those, but mine are on silver discs as my trusty 37 year old Oracle/SME/Clearaudio does not get a lot of use. Jafant: which recording of DOFP as i never heard one sound great though i have always loved that album? 1. James McMurtry-too long in the wasteland. great songs and great recording. the last cut is a total hoot and a real good test of a system's ability to place lots of vocals in space. 2. Kim Ritchey-Rise. she is such a great but quiet artist. 3. Yello-One Second: totally fun. the first cut alone makes it worth having.
4. Mark Knopfler-Sailing to Philadelphia. his duet with James Taylor is so great.
5. Speaking of JT. Hourglass (preferably in SACD if you can find it). cut 4 will bring down the pictures on the wall if you can reproduce what is going on there.
Very tough to narrow down. On my Thiel CS3.6/tubes home system I prefer to listen to albums that combine artists that I like to see live but add the magic of good studio engineering. With Tidal, it sure is easy to check out some of the previous recommendations.
Eagles- Long Road Out Of Eden (check out cut 9 "Fast Company") Shelby Lynne- I Am Shelby Lynne (check out cut 3 "Life is Bad") Martin Sexton- The American (check out cut 7 "Where It Begins") The Wailin' Jennys- 40 Days (check out cover song cut 7 "Old Man") Robert Plant, Alison Krauss- Raising Sand (Check out cut 2 "Killing the Blues")
thanks Jon. i am familiar with a lot of that but not Martin Sexton and the Jennys. most of my cds are really good sounding as i give them away if they are crappy, even if i like the music. really like Deep Purple but their Burn cd was so badly done. same with almost all the Rush stuff. cannot listen to it.
i am going to cheat and add my new reference cd and that is Tango in the Night by Fleetwood Mac. make sure to get the remastered version. wowie zowie.
Kim Richey is great and have a number of her cds. if you like her check out Patty Larkin who has a number of really great cds.
Nice list - ronkentI concur about "Tango in the Night" being an excellent CD. I will have to check out the remaster, as I own, the original 80's CD. What year is the remaster? Happy Listening!
2nd Note - ronkent seek out the original RUSH discs on the Mercury "Atomic" label.Additionally, most fans like the Mobile Fidelity (MOFI) Gold CDs.I cannot speak for the remasters, other to report, that this catalog has been remastered several times over. There are even a few titles on SHM-CD imports. Keep me posted as you find the perfect set for your ears.Happy Listening!
here is the report from the man who got my 2.7's. his system will need a lot of work but at least he now has speakers to let him hear the changes being made.
Good afternoon.
I got them unpacked and setup late yesterday afternoon.
Listened for about an hour or so to the same tracks plus some others. The
one difference I am hearing is more air, more open in the mids and upper
registers. But the biggest difference is in the bottom end. It is
much more solid, with better depth and better control (I made no changes to the
sub, still crossed over at 50hz). I told you how much I didn't like the
bass before on the live "Hotel California', too much, too boomy with the
1.6's. The 2.7's sound very good on that track, they have great presence
and great control of that bottom end. No longer bothersome. Similar
to how they sounded in your room.
My wife doesn't have a critical ear, her only comment was that
they are bigger, but not as a complaint, just a comment. ;-)
I think I will start looking at amplifiers and subs for my next
upgrades in the next year or so. Which model(s) of REL would you
recommend based on my room size 14x20x8?
Here are some of my current favorites: Paul Simon-stranger to stranger Doors- l.a.woman Johnny Cash - American recordings Katoh,Stagg- masters of shakuhachi Arne Domnerus- Antiphone blues
Thank You - ronkentlooks like the FM disc is an import, I find most import CD(s), do sound excellent indeed. A fave RUSH album? No, I like all of the 70's up to the mid 80's. If you do not own "Chronicles "2-CD set, this is an excellent place to start, unless, you want those individual titles. Happy Listening!
Yes, that is a nice copy- ronkent.as you can see, the prices vary depending upon condition. Look for the original 1990 2-cd set. Mercury/Anthem Records label for America and other imports.'Happy Listening!
My pleasure - ronkenthope the info has been helpful to you. Keep me posted on the discs that you decide to purchase, add to your collection.Happy Listening!
Oblgny, THANK YOU, I received the Thiel CS3.5 bass eq and yet not tested as it goes 110V versus 220V in Italy. I had a tech to check it, I would rather not like to use it with a noisy transformer. Again thank you for giving it for free. Going to the one I sent to Mr Gillum, well, still not yet received it back, I do not know if he kept trying to fix or what. If someone gets some info on this I would appreciate.
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