I just dropped in to a new high end audio store near me that sells some wonderful products. I sat down to listen to some music that was playing on a set of speakers and it re-enforced yet again to me how much I value the lack of boxiness, precision of imaging and the openness of the Thiel speakers. For background listening I don't mind a speaker "sounding like a speaker." And this speaker did have some nice tone. But if I'm going to actually devote time sitting down in front of a pair of speakers, I have little time for that type of coloration that tells me "you are hearing the SPEAKER" rather than the artist. That "getting out of the way" quality of Thiels is awfully addictive.
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I just dropped in to a new high end audio store near me that sells some wonderful products. I sat down to listen to some music that was playing on a set of speakers and it re-enforced yet again to me how much I value the lack of boxiness, precision of imaging and the openness of the Thiel speakers. For background listening I don't mind a speaker "sounding like a speaker." And this speaker did have some nice tone. But if I'm going to actually devote time sitting down in front of a pair of speakers, I have little time for that type of coloration that tells me "you are hearing the SPEAKER" rather than the artist. That "getting out of the way" quality of Thiels is awfully addictive. |
Thanks for the invite Jon! As long as you are not a Tide fan! :>) I'll bet those 3.6's sound awesome with ARC! 3.6 is perhaps my all time favorite speaker even though I am using CS6 right now. I switch my 3.6 in from time to time. Prof - nice, you sound like me. Always have a backup. I know you have some other nice speakers in your rotation also! |
@tomthiel I’m a little late, but welcome and thanks for your valuable and insightful comments. I like Thiel's augment mode where the crossover to the woofer is first order and only the subwoofer is higher order. … I use a stereo pair of Thiel SmartSubs and place them at the proper ear distance for best integration and use the room-boundary controls to adjust for early wall reflections. My first sub was a single Thiel SW1 and PXO5 in augment mode. True enough, it integrated seamlessly right off the bat. As I gradually added acoustic treatments to improve my room, I generated numerous bass response plots that clearly showed the SmartSub's ability to eliminate front and side-wall cancellation. Very neat! There's no other product I know of that can do that. I bought my SW1, serial no. -4, from Dave C., a Shaolin martial arts master who used to do graphic arts work for Thiel. Did you knew him? According to Dave, my sub is a pre-release SW1 that Jim used to demo the first-generation SmartSubs at audio events. He'd give it a tune-up before every show ... can't say if that improves the sound today. Keep in mind that when conventional subwoofer integration is employed, the frequency response at the listener position is optimized at the expense of all other positions in the room. Therefore the average power response in the room is wrong and the resultant sound is artificial. Bottom line: I think that bass-generation position is very important and I position my subwoofers where they are distance-correct and let any room problems be addressed via Thiel's sophisticated distance controls or room treatment. Based on these comments, I tried killing the room EQ on my current subs, and I think you’re onto something. Cutting out the EQ seemed, at times, to remove something not quite right in the bass. Anyway, I'll keep this 'back to analogue' option on the front burner as I continue to tweak. PS: The Classé DR amps in your system; very cool! I’ve been driving my Thiels with Classé amps since the mid 90s, but I jumped in too late to sample any Dave Reich designs. After being shut down by B&W, Classé was recently acquired by Sound United. It’s another conglomerate, but I think it's a good sign that Dave Nauber is reassembling his design team in Montreal. They had just announced a new generation of amps when B&W cut them off, so they should have a running start getting back on their feet. Together with the good news about Rob Gillum’s new business — Yea! — there’s hope for continued enjoyment from both brands. |
Here's a thought from the archives about "bright Thiels". RonKent's observation re same system, different speakers . . . Within very close limits, the models represent nearly identical frequency response performance. But Ron's experience of increasing "smoothness" is correct. All sorts of hash accumulates in the high frequencies and coherent speakers permit the ear-brain to perceive that hash considerably more audibly than other speakers. I perviously alluded to this phenomenon . . . it is a deep and interesting arena where future psychoacoustic research will validate Thiel's approach (IMHO). Anyhow, the original CS2 is the last model that used fundamentally off-the-shelf drivers which we tweeked in-house to suit our purposes. That Audax soft-dome tweeter was highly regarded, but had far less sophistication and produced more "sonic edge" than than any future Thiel-designed driver. Similarly, many audiophiles removed the CS2 grille (just because.) That grille frame contained the anti-diffraction machining and the fabric tamed the resonant peak of the dome. Furthermore I might venture a guess that Ron may have upgraded cables and/or other equipment as he upgraded his series 2 speakers. From the beginning Thiel chose to produce the most authentic reproducer of the signal supplied to the inputs. Most companies pull some punches to make the listening experience more palatable. I find it instructive that in all the years of exhibiting around the world with all manner of associated equipment, I never experienced these artifacts of "brightness, hardness", etc. We and our various associates vetted ancillary equipment against both technical and listening tests. |
hi Tom Thiel, thanks for writing. It is great to have you on this forum. I think us Thiel owners are an especially devoted and passionate group regarding their beloved speakers. I had the CS 2s from abut 1985 to about 1991 and enjoyed them but was not totally smitten. Back then its major competition was the Vandersteen but i found them too muddy. However based on what i had read at the time, the 2.2 series was a big improvement and i went that way. after that, i really never looked at other brands as i knew that as i transitioned to a newer generation of the 2 series, the sound would get better. Loved the 2.4's and the 2.7 series are the best ever. I told my girlfriend the other night that it was sad as there will not be a next generation and i for one, do not know of anything remotely close in price that can touch the 2.7's. Heard a pair of the amazing speaker by Carver the other day driven by PS Audio mono blocks, and there is no way it was better though the system was a lot more $$$$. The cabinetry on my current speakers is gorgeous and i think i have you to thank for that, so a big thank you. |
That "getting out of the way" quality of Thiels is awfully addictive.
Over the last 25 years, I’ve heard speakers from Wilson (W/P 7, W/P 8, Sasha, Maxx), TAD (Reference One and CR-1), Revel (M20, Studio, Salon Mk 2), Avalon (Eclipse, Ascent, Eidolon, Idea), Vandersteen (Seven, Treo, Quatro, 3A Sig, 2Ce Sig II), Aerial (5 or 7?), B&W (DM12, 804), Paradigm (100), Vaughn (Triode), Vivid (Giya G3), Vienna (Klimt), Thiel (CS1.6, 2.4, 3.7, 7.2) and probably many others I’m forgetting. My favorites are, in no particularly order, TAD Ref 1, Vandersteen 7, Avalon Ascent, and Vivid Giya (Thiel CS3.7 and 7.2 just miss the list). Now, these were all in different room with different electronics and over many years of sampling. But I have a good handle on what good sound is. I’m here to tell you that my CS2.4SEs (driven by Ayre electronics) deliver nearly all of the neutrality, resolution and transparency – my sonic priorities - of the very best speakers I’ve heard. I would have to spend an order of magnitude more money to get significantly better performance in these areas and I suspect there are only a handful of designs at closer price points that can approach or equal the sound I am getting. I suspect the Thiel’s superb coherence is due to similar materials used for all diaphragms. And the resolution and transparency is probably due to the pistonic driver behavior over the intended range of each driver. Jim Thiel did a masterful job to ensure that driver break-up modes were well-suppressed despite the slow roll-off filters. The only shortcomings I’ve noticed are the lack of low bass (which requires much larger drivers and cabinets and $$$), image density is not quite on par with the best I’ve heard (maybe my placement is not yet optimized?), and the highs are, maybe, not quite as airy and pristine as the very best. Should I be satisfied with getting “only” 90% of a Vivid Giya for $3000? I think I have my “last speaker” (altho’ I may upgrade the crossovers at some point). |
I am interested in what caps are chosen by upgraders among you. I am presently researching my cap upgrades for the two pair of PowerPoint 1.2s I use for my mixing and mastering monitors, due to space limitations. That 6"x 1" coaxial is the same as the SCS 4. And in that near-zero diffraction ceiling-mount sealed cabinet, their performance is surprising. Mine are late, Chinese-made, printed circuit, non Acousta-coil, etc. with lots of room for improvement. I have high hopes for the upgrades on outboard point-to-point boards. Note that the 2.4 SE only replaced two Solen mylar feed caps with Clarity SAs. Today there are much better caps available today from Clarity, Mundorf and other brands. My personal experience (via consulting for other brands) is that the upper end of the woofer circuit is sonically important, especially with Thiel's first order filters, and that budget is the only limitation to sonic improvement in a high-resolution system. I'll keep you informed as I finalize and test my conversion. I suspect that hot-rodded Thiels of many models might make beetle's list. My apology for using the "B" word regarding caps. I meant esoteric high performance, not snobbery. Speaking of Esoteric. A real eye-opener for me was hearing the newly introduced CS3s at the 1983 CES, paired with Esoteric Audio Research (EAR) tube amps. Astounding 3-D performance. Jim didn't like the under-damped bass that is hard to overcome with tube designs, especially with the increased demands of the CS3 equalizer. I love big tube amps with well-damped bass, or side-stepping the issue with a powered subwoofer. Of course there is the cost to consider. |
Note that the 2.4 SE only replaced two Solen mylar feed caps with Clarity SAs. Today there are much better caps available today from Clarity, Mundorf and other brands. My personal experience (via consulting for other brands) is that the upper end of the woofer circuit is sonically important, especially with Thiel's first order filters, and that budget is the only limitation to sonic improvement in a high-resolution system. I'll keep you informed as I finalize and test my conversion.This is great information, Tom! Is there a particular cap you think sounds best for the 2.4? Please keep us (and Rob Gillum) informed of your findings. My understanding of the CS2.4SE is that the Clarity caps only involved the coax feed. Care to share any details regarding the woofer feed? I suspect that hot-rodded Thiels of many models might make beetle's list.Yes, I think I wrote this very thing earlier in this thread. My apology for using the "B" word regarding caps. I meant esoteric high performance, not snobbery.Yes, I was admittedly nit-picking. "Boutique" is too easily interpreted in different ways. I simply wish you and Jim had used more direct phrasing to indicate the sonic benefits of the more expensive passive parts. |
Tom, Thanks again and please feel free to keep us informed. I've never upgraded a speaker before so I'll keep my eye on suggestions, and it may some day give a nice excuse to drive my speakers down to Kentucky to Rob for an upgrade. What kind of sonic differences might one expect from upgrading crossover and other parts? |
Folks, I'm somewhat amazed that this pair of 3.7s has been sitting so long on Audiogon (and USAudiomart): https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-thiel-audio-cs-3-7-2018-01-17-speakers They are in a beautiful finish, apparently great condition. And at a stupid low price considering past prices for the 3.7s. What gives? Do you think it's the lack of boxes for them? Or have the 3.7s finally lost a bit of luster on the used market? I'd think the scarcity would make them even more valuable. |
Good question prof, I don’t think the 3.7’s made as big an impact in the marketplace as it could have: IMHO one reason is because of the untimely selling, then disolving of the business that hurt the franchise and kept it from growing outside of current devotees so soon after the 3.7’s were finally introduced. Also pricing. I deperately tried to justify buying the 3.7’s since I had been a long time user of 3.6’s and waited impatiently, excited for them to come out. I listened extensively at 2 retailers with different systems and cables. I could not hear a big enough difference over the 3.6 to justify spending 12K. Thiel’s pricing strategy had always been more value until then. And finally, tagging the 3.7 as the new flagship also signaled a new direction for the business. That was a strategy that turned me off a bit. As a long time user I would have invested in a new flagship under the 7 series or perhaps an 8 or 9 series. It signaled a downsizing to me. Those are the reasons I do not have a 3.7 but instead have the 3.6 and CS6. |
Folks, prof, I would look carefully at those Thiels listed. I think the reason they have been on the market for so long is their condition. I do not think the seller is being straight forward about it. Look carefully and zoom, it appears there is damage to the passive radiators and if he is not being honest about that, I wonder what else is wrong with them. |
Beetlemania is right that the ClarityCaps were only used in the coax feed for the 2.4SEs. Jim and Gary and others performed extensive listening tests to isolate those 2 tweeter caps as the most critical improvements, and I am not second-guessing their business decision. That driver is significant in not having an electrical crossover for the tweeter, which is the most critical driver for cap quality. So, two feed caps effectively handled the midrange and tweeter. However, I am suggesting that further although more subtle improvements will surface when feeding the woofer with higher-performance caps . I am testing that prediction with my PowerPoints and may then modify my CS2.2s as the experiment dictates. Prof, passive parts upgrade improvements are hard to describe without sounding cliché. You will hear them in terms of naturalness, ease, fluidity, three-dimensionality and such qualitative adjectives. The improvements relate to dielectric absorption and are therefore in the time domain and result in slight smear and sonic residue. I have performed such upgrades in speakers, amps and preamps, but not yet on my own well-known speakers in my own well-known system. I should add that the most obvious crossover upgrade I can remember is when we identified a need and found great copper in the development of the 03 in the late 1970s. There was no going back from that discovery. All coils and internal wire have been six nines, long crystal, etc. since then. We were the industry wire pioneers as far as I know. |
@dgarretson
Looking at Partsconnexion and Madisound, I don't see these values from Clarity (or Mundorf), especially as a close-up of the CS2.3SE crossover indicates 630 V. Are Thiel's values a special order? |
@beetlemania When selling to OEMs like Thiel, custom capacitor values are often supplied directly by ClarityCap. I recently gave Rob a OEM price schedule for ClarityCap legacy model SA/630V(as used in the original 2.4SE) and our new, improved models(CSA/630V, CSA/250V, CMR/400V). Given sufficient demand, perhaps Rob could offer those as upgrades, or alternatively I could coordinate a group buy. Dave |
I engaged in an email exchange with Rob last week re upgrading the caps on my 3.7s. He told me "To upgrade the CS3.7, a 76uf, 151uf, and a 16uf cap would need to be installed in each cabinet." I was unable to find these values. He then suggested "The values I listed are the values for upgrading the CS3.7. It is possible that the capacitors may have to be purchased with the values described (NB: in the catalogs). For example: The 76uf CSA cap may have to be summed from a 75uf CSA and a 1uf CSA cap. The 151uf cap may have to be summed from two 75uf and a 1uf. The 16uf CSA cap may also have to be summed from a 15uf CSA and a 1uf CSA." There you have it. I'd like to do this, but do not have the technical acumen. If Thiel Service offered this, I'd jump. Also, there a lots of varieties of caps out there, and it's a little scary for me that I might alter the speakers in a way I did not like! |
@tomthiel Thanks for the clarification. This pic http://www.hifishock.org/gallery/speakers/thiel/cs2-4se-2-thiel/ shows "Jim Thiel Signature" versions SA 28uF 630V and SA 14uF 630V. I cannot see a 1uF cap in parallel. The values on the woofer section are not evident. I did not see these values online at Madiscound or Partsconnexion. Maybe I didn't look closely enough? Also, is the crossover accessed thru the passive radiator or bottom panel? |
@tmsrdg Thanks for that info. Looking again on Madisound in the Clarity Cap MR 400V (is that enough voltage?), I can get to 28 uF with a 27 and 1 uF in parallel. For 14 uF I need the 12 uF and two 1 uF caps. But given that I already have the Clarity Cap SA version in the coax, I should start with the woofer section. |
To get to my crossovers in 2.4's I unscrewed the passive radiator. Then carefully I let the top nose sit down in the cross brace behind it and that allowed the bottom nose to be free to come up out of the speaker cabinet. Because everything fits so precise you want to be careful. And it is a little counter intuitive when you look at it and then do it. Be real careful not to pull or wiggle anything very strongly it all looks kind of delicate in there. It does come apart relatively easily. Anyway when you remove the passive radiator the crossover is easily seen and reachable. |
I am thinking those big professional looking solder mounds where I think six connections are on the trace board a little to intimidating for me. I can solder an individual connection extremely well. I would probably be better off in sending my crossovers in to Rob to care for that. The main reason I would use him is his quality of work is easily up there with the standard of Thiel speakers. We are in good hands with him. So I figure for a little shipping get it done as the quality would be from the factory. |
Picked up a pair of 1.6's a few months back and have been hooked. This past weekend a pair of mint 3.6's came up at a local hifi shop. They are now in my living room and I couldn't be happier with them. I haven't spent much time with mixing and matching. Speakers: Thiel 3.6 Amplifier: Krell TAS (not bridged) Preamp: B&K PT5 CD/SACD: Sony S570 Cables: Chord |
Guys, it's official that Rob Gillum has bought the service business from the Nashville owners of Thiel Audio, who are officially closing. Rob needs a couple of weeks to transition. He will have a new phone number and email address which he will post on this forum when he's back in the saddle. Rob has been with Thiel since 1988 and has done nearly every job during that time. As you have experienced, he is a first-rate guy on all fronts, and he will appreciate any and all support that you can send his way. He intends to develop upgrade kits for any Thiel products to meet demand. Other original Thiel operatives and myself intend to pitch in to help him succeed. Thank you all for your ongoing enthusiastic support of the Thiel brand. |
This is very encouraging. I am very interested in the upgrade kit for my CS3.6s and possibly my CS1.2s. I have a little experience in soldering, and I certainly do not want to risk either causing damage or risk degrading the sound quality. I look forward to hearing more information on the process of upgrading. |