FYI: The"more bad news at Thiel" thread panicked me a bit. I am still deciding on which Thiels - 2.7 or 3.7 - to keep and I'll want spare drivers for whichever one (e.g. spare coax and spare woofers/passive). I spoke to Rob G. and as I understood it, the spare parts business is still associated with Thiel at this point. Though he can't say (doesn't know) how this will all turn out, he does still have plenty of spare parts for Thiel legacy speakers and should have them still available for the foreseeable future. I still think I need to speed up my process of deciding so I know which drivers to order. My new attempts to pair the 2.7s with subwoofers have really slowed me down though. It's amazing what an absolute pain in the ass subwoofers are to integrate into my system. (And subs are a PIA generally, if you want to get them right). |
Prof, Just curious what kind of sub you have and the steps you’ve taken so far to integrate. I too had a tough time, and still tweak my settings/position occasionally. Always interested to see the steps others take when setting up their subs. I also saw saw that thread and had the same immediate concerns. Any idea on the approximate costs for the replacement parts? |
dhoff01, Thiel spare parts costs, sent to me quite a while ago from Rob: CS3.7 coax - $525 CS3.7 woofer- $400 CS3.7 Passive- $200 The 2.7 speaker parts are, as I remember, between $50 to $100 less per part. Sub integration: I haven't had a chance to do much at all since my work started again. I'd only received a pair of JL Audio e110 subs - the only size that will fight where I need them to go in my room. Though fortunately the 110s are high quality with stellar reviews. I first hooked them up "REL fashion" running speaker wire from the Thiel 2.7 terminals back to the sub high level inputs. Did some mild tweaking, ran the 2.7s full range, dialed in the subs around 40 or 35 Hz. It really changed the sound of the system. Obvious gains in low bass, and the sound became fuller, more dimensional, more precise imaging relationships, and more lush. It also because more rolled off and softer sounding, like my amp had been reduced in power. So it was some gains and some set backs. JL tells me they really recommend against that type of connection and, like many subwoofer aficionados will tell us, the real gain in performance is to be had by crossing over the lower frequencies to the subs, relieving the main speakers for cleaner sound overall. I've read enough reports, reviews and raves about properly integrated subwoofers to think there is something to this and I'm therefore willing to give it a try, despite my previous disdain for subwoofers. So I plan to buy the JL CR-1 crossover which apparently makes dialing in subs a dream. I will also likely try some DSP for the sub signal, running the sub signal through something like an SPeaker Anti Node. This would digitize the low pass signal in order to do room correction. I'm thinking I can handle that idea because it would be in the domain where my ears are far less sensitive. All the upper end goodness would still be the analog signal from my CJ amps/preamp. Will see how it goes, but it's going to be a time consuming and pricey experiment. If all works well, I may end up getting most of what I liked about the bigger 3.7s and more. (I already like some aspects of the 2.7s over the 3.7s even without subs). |
Oh man, I took a look for that Smart Sub on ebay and came across an auction that was literally ending in 20 minutes for a Thiel SmartSub SI 1 Integrator! Those were said to be masterful for blending Thiels and Thiel subs, and rarely come up on the market. My bidding finger got very itchy and I did some quick research. Apparently they were only for use with Thiel subs and I have the JL subs. The SI 1 went for a steal, about $800. Makes me wonder if I should have bought one of those Thiel subs I thought about on audiogon over the years. However, the Thiel subs are too tall to place where they need to go under my projection screen so it would have had to go behind the sofa. Ultimately the two JL subs aligned behind my Thiel speaker are likely the best way to go anyway. |
hi guys, great reading and thanks to all. this is my first time posting on this thread but wanted to add my 2.7 cents so to speak. i have owned every generation of the 2 series since 1986. 2.0, 2.2, 2.4, and now 2.7. Each upgrade was well worth it but i doubt i will go the 3.7 route since a new REL SHO/5 sub seems to have really given me what was missing. i think the biggest change in the speakers was the move from the 2.0 series to the 2.2. that first generation was anemic by comparison. so over 30 years later i still love these speakers and hate what has happened to the company. I have a backup coax as that seems the most vulnerable as i have had to replace two so far. never had issues with the older series. anyone here had issues with these drivers? Thiel and Rob replaced the two bad ones under warranty but i purchased the spare one. Expensive but it beats buying a new speaker which would take a lot of dollars to equal these babies. May even buy another coax. the woofer and the passive drivers have not been an issue. I do have a set of sound Anchors that i used with the 2.0 and 2.2 series if I recall. anyone interested can write me about them if they would like to purchase them. I used Mapleshade platforms under the 2.4's, but with the outriggers on the 2.7's, i use them on the floor directly. my amp is the incredible PS Audio BHK 250. Best amp i have ever used and it will work great with Thiel speakers. thanks again. |
jut in case someone needs this info thought i would post it. Hi Kent,
I have examined the CS2.7 coax that you returned. The failure mode was a buzz generated by the midrange cone. Upon closer inspection I found one of the joints between the diaphragm and the coil former was broken or loose. This will definitely be covered by your warranty, and you can disregard the memo bill sent. Thank you for your business.
Best regards and Happy Listening!
Rob
Rob
Gillum | Service
Manager |
Prof, 'I had a $999 sniping bid in, set to hit 4 sec before the auction of the SI1 sub integrator ended. I don't like bidding early and bidding prices up. i called and asked Rob about it. He suggested that the px02 and px05, with the correct chips which they're running out of, match the Sub introduction perfectly to where Thiel's start to drop off (around 38 hz for the 2.4 and 2.7 as the woofers are the same). Rob said Jim Thiel built and sold only a few hundred integrators at most, and some have come back for repairs that can't be done. Some failures are obvious as in lights not matching settings and some must be listened for. Since I have the px02 configured by Rob for my 2.4s I decided to pass. If I were trying to match non-Thiels to the smartsub, I'd have taken the chance. another thing to know about the SS1 and 2 is that Thiel has no replacement amplifiers. A year ago they were going to develop a new sub with a compatible amp but that didn't happen. if I had to start from scratch, I might look at REL. Are we going to have to start a Go Fund Me to keep Rob and the service department open? He's only 55 so could provide many of us service as long as we need. Bob |
PS, Prof, did you note on EBay that someone was selling the coax driver for the 2.7/3.7 because they had to replace one under warranty and the color of the surround or something had changed. That individual bought an extra so they would match. Of course, if you leave your grills on it won't much matter. |
Prof, Thanks for the pricing info. I think your timing is spot on given the not-so-pleasant (yet not surprising) news. I've struggled for years about going down the path of adding some kind of DSP, but I just can't wrap my head around digitizing my analog setup, even if its just a small part of it. Would be interested in hearing your impressions if you decide to take the jump. Cheers, David |
I'm the one who won the eBay auction for the SI-1 integrator. Can't wait for it to arrive! Prof.: Thiel crossovers can be used with non-Thiel subs. Setup may be somewhat less automatic than with Smartsubs, but no more and often less complicated than using non-Thiel crossovers. For example, the SI-1 makes it easy for non-experts to integrate any main speakers with Thiel Smartsubs, but it has essentially the same controls as the CR-1. Real differences: The SI-1 is fully balanced; the CR-1 is not (only its inputs/outputs are balanced). The SI-1 uses first-order crossovers; the CR-1 uses 4th-order crossovers. It's also possible to use Thiel's passive PXO5 crossovers with non-Thiel subs. I'm temporarily using the PXO5 that previously fed my Thiel SW-1 to mate my F112s in mono/augment mode with my CS3.7s. The JLA's integrate very well even though I haven't bothered to match levels for this temporary configuration. I did, however, use a rough calculation and the JLA phase controls to phase align the system. This yielded impressive improvements in soundstage and slam and, overall, the best sound ever from my system. A simple and cost-effective solution for Prof's system, running the subs mono/augment, might be: (1) set up the JLA E110s for master/slave operation; (2) switch off the internal crossover on the master JLA; (3) install a PXO5 configured for your CS2.7s or 3.7s; (3) adjust the level on the master sub to taste (or use measurements). (4) use the polarity and phase controls on the master to phase align your system. In this setup, the PXO5s handle everything other than level matching as intended. You'd need an adaptor to connect the XLR line-level PXO5 outputs to the RCA line-level inputs on your master sub. You can skip step 4, but you'd be missing a huge improvement. Note: The 4th-order crossovers in the JLAs are not compatible with the 1st-order crossovers in Thiel speakers. In augment mode, the PXO5's should provide much better integration than anything you can achieve with the JLA internal crossovers. Check out white papers on the sounddoctor website for tons of expert information on how to set up and integrate subs. If you're looking for an active crossover, consider Marchand Electronics as a less expensive, but still audiophile grade, alternative to the JLA CR-1. The XM9 and XM44 series are very reasonably priced, but you have to swap plug-in modules to change the crossover frequency. The XM44 offers a fully balanced option that is not available with the CR-1. The XM66 series is functionally very similar to the CR-1 (no module swapping). If you can tolerate the pro audio appearance, you'll be very happy with the cost savings. I was leaning toward purchasing a fully balanced XM44 until the SI-1 came up for sale on eBay. |
unsound, I believe I measured for a Thiel sub on it’s side and decided against it - I think it was still a bit too big and I never could find a place in my room I’d want to put it, without crowding the room. The JL subs were very small, yet high quality, so they are really about my only option. bobsjr4 Thanks for the info! As to that mismatched Thiel coax driver, I do seem to remember seeing that add. But wasn't that quite a while ago? I can't find any add for that now. A mismatch of surround/color wouldn't bother me as I always listen with the grill covers on. (I'm not a fan of seeing speaker drivers when listening to music - my brain can't help mapping the sound to the visible drivers, so I "hear" high end stuff like cymbals as being "sound coming from those tweeters"...) |
ish_mail, Great info, and congratulations. If I’d had more than 20 minutes to research the Thiel unit I may have been your competitor :-) I’m new to subwoofers and it’s a hell of a learning curve. It’s absurd just how complicated simply adding the last bit of low frequencies with a sub is to "get right." I vacillate between throwing in the towel here and there because there is so much information, and so many differing opinions, it seems someone will tell me I’m doing wrong no matter which way I turn. But in my brief check of the Thiels with the JL subs, I did hear some stuff that was promising enough for me to pursue this. And besides, I’m past the return time for the subs and I own them now. Thanks for the suggested set up. JL Audio apparently recommends to avoid using a Slave/Master set up when possible - it’s there for problem solving but not optimal use.
Are you sure? I did worry somewhat about this due to the way the Thiels crossover runs each driver much wider than usual. But, as far as I can tell the CR-1 offers nice flexibility including altering the slope of the crossover frequency, narrowing or widening it, and fine control over the Q and width of the overlapping crossover area itself. It seems to me this should allow a decent blend even with a first order crossover speaker like the Thiels. Thanks for the heads up on the Marchand Electronics unit. It’s good to know as an option. However, especially as a newbie to this stuff, the JL CR-1 still seems more attractive as it was created with JL subs in mind (though can work with any sub) and the controls seem both intuitive and flexible, with some features other crossovers don’t have. (I like the damping control, and the sub/sat balance control, as well as the easy defeat of the subs, etc). I see the Marchand unit can be bought with a first order crossover. On first thought it seems to make sense for use with first order crossover Thiels. But on the other hand, it doesn’t make sense. If I’ve got this right, using a first order crossover on an active crossover in adding a sub, means the sub driver will be run covering a wider range of frequencies than usual, so higher up the passband into the Thiel’s woofer area. But that’s the very type of scenario adding a sub with crossover is supposed to help us avoid. The fact a first order speaker like Thiel runs the drivers over a much wider frequency range is a compromise they had to give in to, in order to maintain phase/time coherency in the design. So it’s not a "good" thing to do in of itself. That’s why I don’t see why it would be a good thing adding a first order crossover with a sub, with the additional overlapping in frequencies that would incur. Ideally we want to minimize frequency overlap between drivers and if we can do it with the sub it seems we should. And it seems the Thiels would benefit having some of the amplifier load taken off their main drivers, like any other speaker. If using a first order crossover with the sub were about maintaining time/phase coherence, I’m not going to have that anyway. The subs will have some delay, and will be placed behind the speakers, hence time delay. I could ideally get them phase coherent with the Thiels with the phase controls, but they’d still be at least a cycle behind in terms of time coherence (unless I go whole hog and want to digitize the entire signal to allow the mains to be delayed for time coherence with the subs - which I’m not yet willing to do. And, btw, isn't that what the Thiel subwoofer integrator does? Digitize the entire signal to mains and subs?). So I’m still unsure as to why the Marchand would be a better choice, even with a first order crossover, vs the JL CR-1. If it’s only price, I’m willing to throw a bit more money at a solution that is more flexible and user friendly. One thing I have worried about is maintaining the Thiels time/phase coherency. If I use an active crossover the mid/tweeter will remain phase coherent, and the woofer will still be playing adding sound and that will be time/phase coherent. So the question is, what effect will the frequencies below the crossover frequency - the sub frequencies - have if they are not time coherent? The intuitive inference is that I would maintain most of the benefits of the Thiel time/phase coherency, in the most critical frequency ranges to my ear, even if the lower frequencies were not perfectly time coherent. Thoughts? What am I getting wrong here? Thanks. |
Thanks! for sharing- bobsjr4 this is true regarding no more amp(s) avail for the SS1 / SS2 models. It would be cool for one of you engineers to figure out how to rebuild one of those things to original Thiel specs (if possible). I have often wondered if Mr. Jim Thiel kept recrods/documents for his designs? If it exists, whom holds his information? Happy Listening! |
Excellent points- robinbarbour upon listening to the CS 2.4 and CS 2.4SE models, I did not hear any Bass roll off. In fact, the Bass presentation to my ears was full, articulate and pleasing. This occurred wether or not I was listening at low levels or much louder levels. Made me a believer and owner. Happy Listening! |
hi Jafant, thanks for your kind remarks. I started with the 2 series in 1985 after selling a pair of Infinity 2.5 speakers. they were like a mini mini version of the IRS. In 1992 got the 2.2's. kept them for about 15 years and got the 2.4's in 2007. boy were they a big improvement. then i got the 2.7's in 2014 and they have been remarkable in how they keep getting better as the other gear improves. I am a total PS Audio Fanboy and have their BHK preamp, BHK 250 amp, P10 power conditioner, the fantastic DMP player, and the most amazing of all, the DSD DAC. They have, through software downloads, updated the unit like five times, all for free. The most amazing thing and the reason i write this, is how easy it is to hear the changes because the Thiel speakers are so dang revealing. They are going to be hard to improve on unless we move into the Magico or Wilson price points. The remainder of my system is a REL S/5 SHO sub. Plus i use all PS AC12 power cords, a beautiful and highly recommended Samson rack from Mapleshade, and many of their feet and other stuff. I sure hope that Rob can continue to run the repair division because there sure are a lot of us devotees out there. Congrats to him for 30 years at Thiel. He has been there as long as i have owned them. I do have really good memories of interacting with Gary Dayton over the years. Their customer service was on par with PS Audio and that is saying something. |
PS: as i mentioned in an earlier post, i have a set of Sound Anchors that i used with the 2.2 series and think they would work on the 2 series as well. would be happy to send pics and measurements if requested. I would be happy to sell them as i have no need for them now. [email protected] |
Jafant, I was shopping for speakers for a while, visiting all the brick & mortars in NYC. It originally came down to Maggie III’s or Vandy 2’s. Just when I decided on the Vandy’s and went to put my money down, the dealer pulled out the Thiels. I was really torn at first, but the more I listened the more appealing the Thiel’s became. I really wanted the 3.5’s but they were really beyond my budget at the time. I was starting from scratch and needed everything else too . Happily settled on the CS 2’s. When I moved from my NYC apartment to a house with a larger dedicated room, the used market had expanded dramatically and was able to track down a pair of 3.5’s not too far away. Of course as is the want of audiophiles, I soon replaced everything else except interconnects. |
Jafant, I was shopping for speakers for a while, visiting all the brick & mortars in NYC. It originally came down to Maggie III’s or Vandy 2’s. Just when I decided on the Vandy’s and went to put my money down, the dealer pulled out the Thiels. I was really torn at first, but the more I listened the more appealing the Thiel’s became. I really wanted the 3.5’s but they were really beyond my budget at the time. I was starting from scratch and needed everything else too . Happily settled on the CS 2’s. When I moved from my NYC apartment to a house with a larger dedicated room, the used market had expanded dramatically and was able to track down a pair of 3.5’s not too far away. Of course as is the want of audiophiles, I soon replaced everything else except interconnects. |
Hi Again Everyone, Hope you’re all getting ready for some great holiday season listening. Disconcerting recent news/rumors about Thiel’s possible demise isn’t it, though not exactly the surprise of 2017. Frankly, in the voice of the best Bond villains: "we’ve been expecting you." My main, and admittedly selfish, fear is what happens if I sent something off for service and the company was suddenly closed down. As I explained in detail here a few months ago, I was able to do a 100% effective repair on a minute tear in one of my midrange drivers, but I’d still like to get both pairs fully refurbed at some point. The issue is that I don’t want to disturb anything while my repair holds up and right now there’s no reason to think it won’t, or that I couldn’t perform the same repair again. But what happens to our precious bits and pieces that may be in Kentucky at time of close down etc? I’m sure Rob would do what he can, but obviously events can happen fast and unpredictably when a company closes, for whatever reason. Let’s hope that the ship steadies. I confess that confidence isn’t high. The new MD so far seems oblivious to two channel and solely appears to be on some sort of mission to use lifestyle marketing to sell upscale Bluetooth speakers to millennial types. Maybe the longer term plan is better than it currently looks? However I do wish another audiophile speaker manufacturer would attempt a buyout, as the current management appears to know as much about real hifi as I do about what is fashionable clothing/style these days i.e. zilch. Still loving my 3.5s and currently feeding them with tubes. Beautiful sound. |
unsound- your story is very close to my own. My first taste of Thiel occurred at Soundscape in Baltimore. This dealer/retailer featured a pair of CS 2.4 and Vandersteen 2 CE Signature, 3A models. I was able to switch between all (3) for several months. The CS 2.4 won as it had the richest sound/timbre to my ears. Happy Listening! |
Thanks for your welcome, jafant, and for your reply, Prof. I have some deadlines looming and a family member going through some serious medical issues, so I’ll have to limit my time here. I’ll try to respond to your queries a bit at a time. My system: AMG Viella turntable with Benz Micro LPS-MR cartridge on an HRS M3X isolation platform; Sonore ultraRendu powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1; Classé CP-800 with on-board phono stage, 192 kHz DAC, and ethernet; Classé CT-2300 stereo amp; Thiel CS3.7s, Thiel SW-1 (retired), 2X JL Audio Fathom f112s, now with solo Thiel PXO5 crossover, but soon to be replaced by Thiel SI-1 Integrator; Stealth cables: hyperphono, Indra v10, Dream; GIK room treatments: early reflection points, corner soffit bass traps, array of 50 Hz tuned bass traps on rear wall with “alpha” blonde wood diffusion grills; Isolation and vibration control: various Stillpoints, BDR shelves and cones; Running Springs Audio Dmitri power conditioner with HZ cord. (Most of my gear was purchased used at steep discounts. Still, it adds up.) I did run the SW-1 in a horizontal position because my wife didn’t approve vertical. This was challenging, because I had to invent an isolation and vibration control system since I have a suspended wood floor. It worked pretty well, but not perfectly. I’m going to try Auralex Subdude IIs under the JLAs, maybe a simpler and more effective solution? In the end, changes to our living room furniture ruled out the horizontal SW-1 for reasons probably similar to those Prof mentioned. I worked with (free) acoustic consultants at GIK to develop my acoustic treatments. Most of it is standard treatment of early reflection points and soffit traps in the corners. More notable was severe SBIR cancellation off the rear wall. This was killing bass at the listening position. The tuned bass trap array was the only way to solve this, and as promised by GIK, it works. I made numerous measurements with Room Eq Wizard (REW) to understand my room's acoustics and to inform the GIK consultants. Room treatments are essential to get the best out of your system (but I understand this isn’t always possible — I’d like to also treat early reflections off our ceiling, but that’s a bridge too far). In particular, low bass will muddy up your high end if you don’t control low-end reverberation times. Adding a sub can make this problem worse. This might be why some people find that adding a sub makes their system sound rolled off on top. Prof, check out these links related to subs in general and an interesting case study of getting phase and time-coherent integration with JLA subs and a Marchand crossover. http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm http://www.soundoctor.com/studio/ Unfortunately, in my case, I'd have to put my subs right next to me on the sofa to replicate this solution in my room (heh). I don't want to push Marchand too hard, in part because I've never heard or touched one. But based on what I've read, they should be just as compatible with JLA subs as the CR-1. Compare the controls on the XM66 http://www.marchandelec.com/xm66.html to the CR-1, I think they're very similar. |
ish_mail, Classy system you have there. How ironic: I didn't bid on the Thiel integrator because I thought it was only good for Thiel subwoofers and I have JL. But here I see you are using it to integrate JL subwoofers too! Live and learn... Thank you for all that info. I have indeed already investigated the sounddoctor site and intend to get the CD. I see what you mean about the Marchand crossover. Will investigate. |
Just because a company goes under doesn’t mean they can’t be fixed. A friend of mine owns some Snell speakers and kits are still available to still maintain them. In my case I still own 2 Threshold 50 amps and a Forte 6 amp. I have local techs that have maintained them over the years. One great thing about Jim Thiel speakers you can get them for pennies on the dollar now. I’m sure someone will fix these speakers when this pseudo-Thiel company goes under. Merry Christmas!! |
I just bought a pair of barely broken-in 3.7s a few weeks ago from a private party. Considering the news, I was concerned about the longevity of the repair service that Rob Gillum at Thiel runs, so I called him. Things are indeed in a state of flux, but he was able to put my fears to rest. Perhaps some due diligence is still required in monitoring the goings-on, but I'm not terribly concerned now. Currently listening to the Koopman Bach Cantatas. Such wonderful music. |
