Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
jafant
I've sucked out tweeters with toilet paper rolls before.  I'd try that before resorting to a vacuum.  My kids are 5 and 6 so for the last few years I've been trying to avoid them damaging my 3.7s.  I actually built light frames around them and put them on plywood platforms on wheels.  The idea was that I was going to basically Vandersteen them by wrapping the frames with some fabric mesh.  I never got to that but the frames consisting of 4 vertical dowels and a rectangle frame on top did a good job of preventing kid damage.  Just in the last couple of months I finally got rid of those frames.  I think the basic idea is a good one for anyone wanting to make it through the little kid years without a lot of dings or worse.  I'm sure you give up a little bit sonically and it doesn't look great but when you've got tiny kids those things are secondary anyway.
prof 's loudspeaker audition thread is an excellent read. He covered many popular brands in detail. This information is especially helpful for those who do not have local Audio representation.
That is unless he made it all up.  Like how can you prove God exists. :-)
andy2

Not a chance prof would confabulate his own thread. Second, visit the Grand Canyon... (all of it).

Happy Listening!
Second, visit the Grand Canyon

Seems like a long way to go to prove God exists though.
Rojacob, Thielrules, Jazzman, Jon_5912, TomThiel and all!
Thank you all for the great responses. Yes I think one of those fat straws would fit through and I love the idea of the paper towel roll. All great ideas.

That being said I found a video(see link below) of Paul McGowan talking about dented tweeter domes. In his opinion, depending on the extent of the dent, it would most likely not be a problem except cosmetically. His attitude was that it would not affect the sound quality. I was a bit skeptical about that and wanted to hear opinions from you guys.

I called Rob over at Coherent Source this morning. I wanted to run some of these ideas by him before I tried anything. He suggested the tape method as well. I mentioned the video of Paul and his opinion on dented tweeters. Rob agreed with Paul. Rob said as long as I was not hearing any buzzing, then the voice coil was not damaged and it would likely not be an issue.

JA and I are trying to get together for a listening session at my place in the next few weeks. I’m thinking I might wait for JA’s assessment before I try anything. That will give me time to keep listening, and thinking about what I want to do. I don’t feel any need to rush to fix it at this point.

That being said, I bet getting that dent to pop out with a paper towel roll or straw is probably the most satisfying feeling in the world. If I try anything I am leaning towards the paper roll or straw(I have the perfect water bottle straw).

Thanks for all the help. I will keep you all posted when I have an update.

https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/does-a-dented-dome-tweeter-matter/


Bighempin - I agree with Paul: in the pistonic range the same amount of air is moved, so the frequency response is not impacted very much. But there are further subtleties in my opinion. The shape of the compression wave coupled to the air will get turbulent as the frequencies approach the upper limit of the tweeter. I think it likely that the upper octave may become ragged with the crumpled dome.

Even though we, especially older male, listeners aren't supposed to hear above 15K (I'm out considerably lower than that), we somehow register anomalies in the upper ranges. I can hear the differences in various digital high-cut filter configurations, and all that stuff is supposed to be near or above 20kHz.

So, there may not be a "huge" difference, but then again, consider the effort we spend on getting quite small sonic improvements from our systems. The human ear-brain is a magnificent piece of work.
I had a previous spare set of CS3.6s that I bought with dents in both tweeters. I delicately pulled most of the dents out with clear Scotch tape, but with metal domes there will still be slight undulations. It doesn't just pop up in one motion, but requires multiple small pulls. I used clear tape since I could see through to the underlying dome. If you use a straw, I would use one made of soft rubber like comes in some of the "sippy cups" and preferably clear so you can watch as the dent comes out. Jon

Thanks Jafant.

(I admit to being perplexed by Andy's theistic allusions in regards to audio...)
andy2,

That's a third for visiting the Grand Canyon.
Going through the canyon in an inflatible raft is an awesome experience.

Advice from Thiel owners. There is a 3.7 for sale on A'gon which I am sure a lot of you have seen. My room is 12x11x9 and acoustically treated. I listen while I work so the sound level is low to medium. Am I crazy to consider the 3.7's for this space.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605

I have always been of the opinion that the 3.7's were one of the best speakers I have ever heard and I have heard a lot of very expensive speakers.
yyzsantabarbara,

I took a very good look at your office and wondered where you might place a pair of 3.7s, especially as your desk is located in one corner and apparently might be difficult to relocate.

Just a thought
@brayeagle I need to put my next floor standers in the space where the KEF LS50’s now reside. I cannot move anything now. I have identified 2 speakers that will work, Vivid Kaya 45, Paradigm Persona 3F, and maybe Yamaha NS5000. However, the 3.7’s is something I have a greater affinity for, even after all these years.

I would never have considered the 3.7 for this space but the person selling had them in a 10 x 10 space, which shocked me. I was left wondering if at low to med volume and in an acoustically treated room, would the 3.7’s work for me.

I owned the SCS4’s long ago and I believe they would work fine in this treated room.
That's a third for visiting the Grand Canyon.
Going through the canyon in an inflatible raft is an awesome experience.

and snake hunting lols.
For what it's worth:
I had the 3.7s in my 13' X 15' room and they worked perfectly.  No problems whatsoever.
Then again, it's a really good room for sound.
andy2

Nah! Not along that portion of the river bank. 

If you like diamondbacks, copperheads, centipedes, scorpions and tarantulas, go to Canyon De Chelly and visit  the Northern canyon (Canyon Del Muerte.)   Lotsa' fun!

( I grew up in Arizona )
@yyzsantabarbara - I bought my 3.7s in 2012 and then had kids in 2013 and 2014.  I've moved 3 times since then and they've been in a bunch of less than perfect setups.  While they'll be best in a big, well setup room, I think you can appreciate a lot of their virtues in less than ideal situations.  The coaxial mid/tweeter make them much less sensitive to listener position than previous models.  I worked from home for years and used my 49" 4k tv as a monitor.  The speakers were 2-3 feet from me on each side.  I spent many hours listening to music that way and found them very enjoyable.  Even in that situation they image surprisingly well.  They are very intelligently designed to work in a lot of situations.  The dispersion is great so the tonal balance doesn't shift dramatically at different angles.  They don't try to do the deepest bass and therefore avoid a lot of room problems.  Ear height can be important so get an adjustable height chair.  If I were you I'd go for it.  I doubt you'll regret it.- 
Thanks everyone for your feedback on the 3.7's. My accountant was a party pooper today by informing me I have to make a larger than expected tax payment on Oct 15th. So no chance to make an offer on the 3.7 today.

However, I am going to keep my eyes open for other 3.7's for sale after the Christmas holidays. 
@thieliste  I do not want to press my luck. I won't elaborate on a public forum.

A few years ago some dealer in Southern Cal. had like something like 6 Thiel 3.7 speakers in storage that they wanted to clear out. I had no place to store it at that time. I should have got a storage unit, a real shame.
yyz - for your smallish space, you might also consider CS2.7s with the same coax. Lots of fans here. 
@tomthiel I am a huge Thiel fan myself. 

If I could find a 2.7 I would be interested but these things are becoming harder to find. Lucky for me the tax man is keeping me broke for a few more months. I will keep an eye out for the 3.7 or 2.7 because the coaxial driver and the dispersion pattern of these 2 speakers are good for my seating position. I am seated slight more to the left side of the room.
hi YYZ,  like Prof.  i have owned both 2.7 and 3.7 (current).   i think for your space the 2.7's would do a great job. the drivers sit a bit lower (about 4") and are easier to work with for most listening positions
yyzsantabarbara

Good to see you again.  I usually advise the CS 2.7 model for an office / small room application. OTOH, I can see your wanting to procure a sweet pair of CS 3.7 loudspeakers.  Continue to watch the demo/used market as well as internet sites. California is a Hot market for this kind of activity.

Happy Listening!
Thanks guys. I have been looking into the 2.7’s today.

The 3 office speakers I have previously narrowed down my search are 10K, 15K, and 18K MRSP. I know I would get the same audio happiness buying a 3.7 and the price would be a lot better. The 2.7 would seem like a smarter choice for my room and even cheaper. Those other speakers now are starting to seem a little expensive given my rekindled excitement for the Thiel.

A light-bulb moment for me today was when I realized a used 3.7 would be a good choice for my living room downstairs. It is 22 x 13 x 30+. There is an additional 5 feet that can be added to the 13 feet room width if I include the staircase. Currently that room is my toddlers play room and has no furniture (just toys). I have been trying to think of a dream speaker I can get down there that is sturdy (my 3 year old is strong), with strong drivers, and sounds great. It will get dinged up with the boy and his friends but these things are meant to be enjoyed.
yyzsantabarbara

A unique opportunity to own both CS 2.7 (office) and CS 3.7 (downstairs room). I am excited for your future Audio journey.

Happy Listening!
I won't get a 2.7 or 3.7  for the office if I get the 3.7 for the downstairs. I just have to convince the wife that a toddler needs a 3.7. Though when we were dating 12 years ago she went with me to an audition of the 3.7 (in a smallish room) and I told her I would get this speaker one day. I had Revel Salon 1 at that time and loved the 3.7 so much more than the Salons. Good thing is my kid loves music like me and so does the wife, though a little less crazy than me about it.

At the time of the Salons I had a house in the woods in the Bay Area, CA and could crank my music at any time and any level. I got the house to fit the speakers (single life). I downsized from the Revel Salons to the AudioengineUSA 2+ desktop speakers ($299) when I moved down the coast with the wife.

If I cannot convince her of the 3.7 for the downstairs then a 2.7 or 3.7 for the upstairs. 

TMR just listed a pair of teak CS 3.6 for $1499.   Described by TMR as 7 out of 10.
Getting caught up on my favorite thread and have to say a belated but big thanks to andy2 and prof for explaining what they are hearing when they listen to 1st vs 2nd order crossovers.  You guys (and many others on this thread) have tons of listening experience and a talent for being able to explain what you hear, thanks for sharing!
@vair68robert Thanks for your post back on 9/11 with the link to the article comparing the Classé CA-2300 and the C-J MF-2550 SE amps running 3.7s. I've been running 3.7s with a Classé CT-2300 (same as CA-2300 except for the case). Starting with the amp and speakers alone, I added a single Thiel SW1 sub via a PXO5 passive X-over, and finally a pair of JL Audio subs via a Thiel SI-1 active X-over. Along the way, I installed an array of tuned (60 Hz) bass traps on my rear wall to fix a severe SBIR problem –– this in addition to more standard room treatments.

The CA-2300 handled the 3.7s quite well from the beginning, but adding the Thiel SI-1 and the dual subs made the most significant improvement. High frequencies were sweeter and stayed sweet to louder volumes, the sound was more transparent, vastly improved extremely immersive sound stage, etc. Adding dual subs with the active X-over lightened the loads on both the amp and the speakers. It's hard to say how much of the improvement came from each component, but I suspect at least some of it had to do with easing the load on the amp. Consistent with the review, while the Classé amp performed quite well on its own, this suggests that there might be room for improvement in its load handling abilities.

It's worth noting that the reviewer didn't prefer the MF-2550 SE in all respects. He preferred the C-J Premier 350SA's weight and soundstage and referenced the Classé's (presumably superior) subtlety. I'm not shopping for a new amp right now, so I'll just make a note for future reference. If your room and budget allow, you might consider adding sub(s) with an active cross-over as an alternative to upgrading to a heftier unit if you're otherwise happy with your amp.
yyzzsantabarbara......I could deliver a nice pair of cherry 2.3 to you on my way South in October, just for grins....Mods don’t over rotate on this....

ish_mail


Good to see you again. Hope you are well and enjoying early Fall.


Happy Listening!

@tomic601 Thanks for the Thiel offer. I have my eyes on the Thiel 3.7 for the downstairs now.

A speaker you did recommend  to me in another post will get a much stronger second for look my office, the Vandersteen Treo CT. All this Thiel thinking made me circle back on the Treo CT.
ish_mail

You're welcome .
I'm still replacing capacitos and resistors as my budget allows ,
with ultra-fast soft recovery recitiers being next .
Basically part DIY hobby and part the cost of audiophilism .
Used CJ MF-2550se are going for Over $3,700 ,
a Classe CA2300 is going for over $5,000
and a CJ Premeier 350sa went for over $5,000 this year .

I have noticed that many Thiel owners are using Conrad Johnson
equipment both solid state and tube .
At the same time it seems that adding a sub or two seems to be a popular addition .

 I am thinking about adding a CJ preamp
( used ) to replace my passive preamp .

This is a Fun hobby that is or can be very $$$$$ 
and I am trying to keep it down to $$ by buying used and upgrading .

Rob


vair68robert,

Starting with a pair of 2.2s in 1996, I too have mostly bought used since then, and it's still been a rather expensive (but rewarding) hobby. I'm surprised and pleased to learn that CA-2300s are fetching $5k+ used. That's a bit more than I paid used for my CT-2300 in 2011.

I admire your DIY effort upgrading your electronics. I lack expertise and skill with a soldering iron in that area, but I did take a deep-dive into acoustic measurement and room treatment as well as designing and building an ultrasonic vinyl cleaning system to earn my DIY wings.

Back on the topic of adding subs, I should add that Thiel cross-overs, whether passive or active, do a superb job seamlessly integrating subs with main speakers.

Bob
FYI
Thiel 3.7's on craigslist rochester.  $7000

a bit out of my range at this moment

if someone buys them, i  live in rochester and would be happy to hold them for you. 
i'd even deliver within couple hours for the privilege of helping someone achieve nirvana.

dave
gasman117

Nice catch!  There seems to be a few of you guys in the NY state area.

Happy Listening!
Hi !

I recently bought a pair of MSC1 for a great price but the two coaxial drivers are dead... Is it possible to find replacement parts ? I sent a mail to Coherent Source Service but no answer...

Is there a possible replacement from another brand ? May I tweak the crossover ? Thank you so much.

Ambroise
ambroiseg
Welcome!  Mr. Rob Gillum is your guy at Coherent Source Service.
He is a one-man operation and will reply to email or phone call as soon as possible.  Keep me posted after your consultation on replacement parts / tweaking the cross-over (XO). I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system.

Happy Listening!
cascadesphil
Good to see you again. Thank You for posting CSS' phone number.
Happy Listening!
Nice to you :)

So I'll wait for Mr Gillum's answer.

I'm french, i live in Paris and I discovered Thiel's speakers by buying to someone 3 MCS1, which 2 of them had the coaxial damaged. One central MCS1 (I'm selling it because I listen music more than watching movies) sounds good and amazing ! I tried it with an old 60's french tube amp : Jason A-2-25 : 25W with a great quality.
Awaiting for MCS1 repair, I use my TDL RTL 4 : uk speakers from the 90's, very good, but a bit too wet and confuse compared to MCS1, yet more bass.

I listen to various kind of music, mostly on vinyl : heavy metal, classical, french song...
ambroiseg
Good to see you again here.  At your leisure, take time to read this thread from the beginning. I believe that you will find a plethora of information.
There are a few international members of the Panel here. To my knowledge, you are the first from Paris. Thiel Audio is truly represented around the world. I hope Rob is able to assist your initial query. I like your musical tastes.
Happy Listening!
tomthiel
I was hoping your eyes would catch this post by our newest contributor from France.  That would be very cool as there are many pairs of CS 2.3 on the secondary internet marketplace.  Hope you are well this Fall day and having fun in your Hot Rod garage.
Happy Listening!
Jafant - I catch all the posts, but try to limit my input to matters that matter. Rob has told me about the 2.3 x MCS coax, but third-party verification is always in order before anyone commits cash.
All - I think this lovely Autumn Friday in New Hampshire is a good time to share some recent developments. Several months ago, there were posts here about the Thiel midrange being shouty and harsh, and I pushed back to have set up scores of shows where that simply wasn't the case. I then began some soul-searching and tried to thank the poster off-line, but he had taken down his post. I want to thank him for a very productive period of my life. I apologize for not keeping your names straight, but time required to review the thread is more than I have. Here goes.

A tremendous amount of effort by Thiel aficionados goes into finding music, hardware, cables and room conditions to make their Thiels sing. We all do it. Thiel did it. Notice the Krell, Levinson, Pass and other amps that work, sometimes costing a large multiple of the speakers' price. I have musician friends who invest their lives in making their CD the best they can make it. And often on my reference system, built around CS2.2s, it can sound shouty and harsh, with midrange glare most evident when the music gets loud and complex. Same goes for rock, jazz and symphonies. We tend to blame the record producer because stellar CDs do sound good. Beetle (I think) asked here about that and I agreed with his assertion that Jim only valued good playback on excellent CDs, with no excuses for poorly engineered material.

Fair enough as far as it goes, but there is a lot of room between the few best examples and most of the remainder. In the past few months, I have listened to hundreds of (non audiophile) CDs, and don't like what I hear on most of them. I shifted the hypothetical responsibility away from the record producer and onto myself, and over a few weeks' time, I believe I am approaching a core paradigm shift. Whereas Jim's paradigm, shared by the whole Thiel team might be summarized: 'Complete Fidelity to the speaker's Input Signal', mine is developing more like: 'Translation of the artists' Dream'. I know that is fraught with philosophical burdens, but it also serves to take responsibility for a bigger slice of the pie. For instance, the new paradigm would have prohibited the low Thiel impedances because the Artists' Dream is to reach a populace which includes sub $$$$ amps. And so forth and so on.

A self-limiting assumption is that making the music more accessible will de facto reduce its accuracy. That will not be tolerated. I am proposing keeping present performance as a performance base line. After months of inner work, I have identified a sphere of great promise. And I appreciate those of you who are co-developing and testing with me, just as I appreciate Beetle and Holco and others off list who have co-developed crossover solutions. What we tried in Beetle's 2.4s achieves very  high-quality results, but the cost would be in three figures. And my verification here showed that something still seemed un-addressed. "It" became more evident with the (new to me) 3.6s from the hotrod garage. Despite their greater power, deeper bass and higher resolution than the 2.2s, there is also more upper midrange congestion, harshness, glare; more so on complex and loud music. My trusty stethoscope helped me find some sort of hash on the baffle flats that sounds a lot like the in-room "problem". Further dots were connected with the Vandersteen baffle discussion here, as well as my experiences with Dunlavy and Hales over the years. I am in the 4th iteration of baffle treatment which produces more, not less, inner detail and image size-height, while reducing that "glare" to where the large majority of music becomes enticing and enjoyable, rather than requiring excuses. I have trouble staying out of the studio to do my required work on other projects!
I am now assembling some kits for some of you to try, and feed back what you learn. I simply lack the upper frequency hearing, and face a shortage of appropriate listeners in my small village. Thanks guys. Present work addresses multiple cabinet aspects. I was part of 2.2 and 3.6 cabinet development, and proud of it. So it surprises me that so much work was left undone, due primarily to riding the wild bronco of manufacturing development and growth. The largest surprise to me is that for a fraction of the cost of crossover upgrades, we can make a qualitative improvement in the sonic presentation, in the musical assessibility. I know that's hard for insiders to believe and it puts a huge burden of proof on me;  I'm not asking you to believe anything. But, I am looking forward to user critique more than I ever have in the past.