Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
jafant

Showing 29 responses by theaudiotweak

I will experiment with the mix on some plywood first and see how the coating hangs on. After drying I may have to spray coat with a low shear acoustic paint I have been working with as a sealer over the Micro Bearing. Tom
I have read about these updated Ohm Walsh bending wave drivers before. Noticed their internal acoustic panels use a polymer sheet that incorporates steel shot..I would rather mix the shot into the cement and have the cement seal the wooden pores.
Happy Kentucky Derby weekend All
Sunshine is bright with blue skys for miles..Tom

At Starsound we have our wire in our speakers that is surrounded by a  double jacket. Between the void of the 2 jackets we fill with our Micro Bearing Steel. The bearing acts as a shield and as a reactive resonance control system. The bearing dissapates vibration before it contacts the conductor. Tom
Must be a contemorary joke and embarresment at  least for the last 28 years here and the country as a whole. Other than Yarmuth who has stood up for the general public for the last 20 years here in the state of Kentucky. Tom


You can also read up and use the Bud Purvine EnABL method for which he was granted U.S. patent # 5,304,746..filed 1991. The Purvine patent originally described a method to reduce or eliminate standing waves now better described as transverse, or shear waves or a type called a Raleigh wave. The EnABL used for years by many online can be applied to both sides of a surface including those of a speaker box and a speaker cone . Shear waves have 2 polarities and can only travel thru solids or on solids. Their polarity will change direction when it meets another different conductive material or geometric boundary .This process repeats itself until there is no signal contained or there is no longer a conductive material. The shear waves generate an odd affect on boundary edges that join up and meet, almost seems to be a fluttering of energy that will wrap around the front of a baffle and carry over to a portion of the joining side. A corner in a glass house would be an extreme example of how a surface conducts sound vibrations. You can apply the EnABL method to drivers, cabinets, turntable platters ,walls and probably a race car..endless surfaces and materials. There are other methods available to reduce interfering energy on many different products. By doing so there sounds to be an increase of effiencey. Exactly as in the Debbie Miles patent she describes a method to reduce shear wave interference in the floor surface boundary of a string instrument. This method is easily heard as an increase in volume and power while at the same time reducing the amount of energy needed to make any given sound. Debbie likes to call this a reduction of interfering energy.

The shear waves travel in and on the materials, the air that lays against these solid materials vibrates and relates a character of sound to our ears, some could be described as dry or woody or glassey and tinny each depending on the material, its shape and boundary . All materials have a different shear velocity among other descriptions this is why lead sounds different than brass or glass, wood or beryllium. A reduction of a polarity of shear on and in a large surface in motion such as a room wall will improve laminar flow like we use in The Energy Room. We originally applied these same methods to our complete speaker system. As Debbie says that reduces interfering energy. Tom D.

Well you would have 2 conversions when really only none is required..And you would have many more component parts including the probable use of a couple of noisey switching power supplys. Other than that it would work. I have run digital eq and xo on my system once and only on the subs which I quickly removed. Tom 
Get it all out here..When I did a remodel of my power amps I took the main board Nichicons off and chassis mounted 4 of the Clarity Cap TC's  these are hard mounted to the metal bottom with Audiopoints. You could do the same in a speaker when replacing a large value cap. These caps a very nice up grade.  Flys high now with the Vishay nude metal films in every position.Tom
Question can you run a cap and resistor in series to equate the the esr of the original ? 

The best sounding resistors are the Vishay nude metal films. When I rebuilt my long gone Dunlavys years back..I had to build resistor bridges with several of these low wattage resistors to meet the power requirements. The improvement was almost staggering well that and sealing all the pores of the MDF inside of the cabinet with Cascade Vbloc..the formula now is a little different. Kinda like troweling on concrete. Sucks in and seals and kills the glue..Much more dynamic and open. I sealed 1 and kept quantity measurements, let dry for a few days and reassembled and compared..The treated one sounded like it went out the door and down the street..the other one was still in the box. The pair was amazing. My experience tells me not to replace inductors..go gently with the caps..and replace all the dime store resistors. Tom

vair68robert..Just saw the exposed crossover you posted. The single easiest most dramatic improvement would be for you to replace all the resistors shown with either non inductive wire wounds from Mills or Mundorf. I would replace the resistors first before the wire..You will always hear the resistors shown and their low level noise will still be present in any wire you try. Change the resistors first/next..
 Tom
Always fascinated with vibrations we can sense and hear but have no method yet to test for or measure. Working on an applique to surfaces to reduce shear wave interference on most any surface. My favorites being speakers and cabinets and musical instruments.Tom D
Often pro audio gear is looked down upon..QSC has made some fine sounding amps..I suppose they could be improved upon with the addition of a few "audiophile parts"..Tom
The QSC I heard a  while back was 2000 watts per chn...and it wasnt class D it was class H. Class H from the late 70s and early 80s was somehing terrible we had from a vendor maybe Hitachi and then even before that Soundcraftmen..The QSC was on Legacy speakers. Tom 
Tom Thiel when you stated Long Engineering was that the company of Ed Long who patented the Time Align setup for crossovers? In the early 80’s a friend and I contracted Ed Long to design a 8 in midbass driver and a 4 inch midrange driver that were built by Eminence which is about 30 miles from my home.

The 8 inch was in a rather small sealed enclosure and the mid and tweeter were mounted on sculpted panel time offset to the wooden cabinet attached below. The midrange was mounted in a open back damped tube. Both the 8 in and 4 inch were very shallow in cone depth. Ed’s thinking was the deeper the cone the more time the cone was out of time alignment as it traveled. Of course Ed designed the crossover as well.

The bass eventually became a early version of the ELF subwoofers who along with Long was patented by Ron Wickersham . Eminence built us 10 inch woofers which we mounted 2 in a each separate but attached cabinet. These also had a time offset. The drivers were crossed over below the system resonance point and we put in use a Mcintosh MQ 104 xover and eq for the woofers extension and control. They were powered by a Tom Holman amp. Incredible soundstage and super fast powerful bass with no boom or overhang. May be the the best integrated bass I have ever heard to this day. Good luck to all following this thread and sharing their experiences and upgrades. Tom


So where did my post go that was a positive response to the Michael Hedges album. If it is Labor Day and Tammy is off then someone else has the power of the cleever. Who may that be? Tom
Tom Thiel..

About the Sonoran wire from Starsound..this product line has been made since the early 90's and has never had any relationship with MIT. As with all our products the Audio Points and Sistrum family of audio racks and platforms.. and most of the cables... we have designed in methods for resonance control and mechanical grounding. 

We know from years of listening experience that any mechanical conductor such as a listening room a speaker cabinet a stand and any type of electrical conductor can be altered by vibration and resonance. We have learned from previous works that if you overdamp a product that you eat into the spectrum that suggests that you are listening to a live event. There is a fine line in keeping it real. Even a signal wire can be over controlled and we accrued many  hours listening to the same wire again and again surrounded by different materials and geometric shapes even in the same family of  elements. While we thought that a container of steel bearings 5 million per pound would sound the best around our conductor we instead sonically chose surrounding the conductor with the same material and geometry but one which had a part count of 970,000 bearings per pound. And no I didn't make a part count myself.  Even the conductor can be damped to sonic detriment. Same with speaker stands. No to sand or lead shot as those materials have a very low shear velocity and will overdamp the device. Even with the steel shot we usually suggest filling a post 1/2 to 2/3's..As you add more you suddenly hear too much darkness and then the sound stage begins to shut down.  Darkness and virtually no light. Not that. 

Recently I have been experimenting with materials and coatings that can be easily applied to many different shapes and surfaces. They control shear induced resonance which travels on and thru any solid material.  I have applied this same material to an active room device that greatly enhances laminar flow and reduces the impression of room boundaries. Listening in wide open space.  Tom


Tom Thiel

The metal and its shape is more reactive to vibration. In this case the reactive material will dissipate the vibrational energy because of  the bearing motion. The steel bearing can also be another barrier to RFI penetration along with any other metal barrier that may already exist around the conductor. 

Back to the whole shear velocity thing. In this case you don't want even smaller more densely packed particles that have very slow velocities because they could or will over damp the copper or silver wire. As I wrote earlier with the same material and shape the smallest material that could be more densely packed did not sound as good as it's larger brother of the same shape which is less densely packed.
Any single material boundary can swamp and overwhelm the sound of another material and its boundary.. 

From the International Atomic Energy Agency below.

I found this years ago and forgot and found it again recently. I want to post this on other threads as it will describe how particle waves react with each other and their material boundaries.  https://www.ndt.net/forum/files/ut--.pdf
Look to pages 38 to 41 or so. What is described is how and what we hear and how different materials and shapes sound the way they do.

I want to thank a lady Debbie Miles, a seismologist for 40 years, she has greatly influenced my venture into how materials and shapes interact and their influence on what we hear.. Tom 



The GFA 5802 and as I said the Pre and CD were much better than any other Adcom pieces.The 3 I listed are much more refined and musical..
I never had any contact with the 5800..The 5802 has no fans and there is one for sale on Ebay now.

Tom
Hello Jafant,

On 1-27 you asked about products from Starsound.

With a host of new people, the Company name will change along with the current product roster.


The new company is scheduled to go online shortly and will feature Audio Points™ that were introduced thirty-two years ago, Rhythm Platforms™ and Energy Rooms™.


Two new lines of equipment racking systems will be featured titled Rhythm Junior Platforms - a more affordable version of the multiple Award-Winning Rhythm Platforms and Timbre Platforms™ which is our initial venture into the world of wood shelving now infused with Live-Vibe Technology™.


We will be back in the compact monitor stand business and are currently prototyping new products based on the Energy Room mechanical grounding methodologies designed to compete with the current oversized acoustic panels, pillows and bass trap products.


In the musical instrument industry, we remain active and plan to expand the cello end pins while prototyping mechanical grounding products for the violin of which I am nearing completion. Tom

Audiogon member Dale Humphrey has his Virtual System on display on these pages. Dale is located outside of Madison and if you would like to hear the Energy Room which is hidden behind the drywall.. drop him a PM..Dale is a member of our corporate group. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8168

As for amps most of the Krell amps that are class A/B will operate fine with a 15 amp circuit. The best Adcom amp is the GFA 5802 and Nelson Pass did have design input on this piece as he also had input on GFP 750 and the GCD 750..these pieces stand up very well even today.

The Ayre power amps are also a great match with Thiel. Never a dealer for Ayre.

I worked for 2 dealers in the past and we sold Krell, Adcom and Forte as well as Thiel.

The Forte seemed gassed easily.. The big Krells and that Adcom 5802 were excellent. Tom


I sold a friend an LSA Signature powering a set of CS 5's in a smallish room. That was 5 yrs ago.
The bigger upgrade in sound quality was the Sistrum rack he purchased and I set up.  Tom 
Just checked the LSA was purchased in Dec. of 2013..haven't heard any negative feedback from the client. Tom
Myself and others have applied an opposite or different method to the mounting of crossovers internal to the cabinet.. We do secure the individual components to the board using rope caulk or other soft adhesives as well as zip ties. Instead of slowing down and storing some of the vibration inside we direct couple the slowed and misdirected energy to the floor or wall of the cabinet. I use small brass Audiopoints and the brass coupling discs. The board rests on these devices and the board can be secured with brass screws to the cabinet base. We have an extended method that allows for resonance tuning from outside the cabinet. This method while more invasive the improvement can clearly be heard by using a hex tool..To provide a continuum of thoughts on this mechanical conduit we set the speakers on our Audiopoints or our Sistrum Platforms and speaker stands. We use the same materials and geometry to maintain the capture and redirect direct the  exit speed of resonance to the largest mechanical ground plane..the floor. There is also a similar method that can be applied to bass and midrange drivers which also allows for resonance tuning outside the box. Tom


Resistor upgrades have been discussed and revealed on these pages for years. The greatest upgrade for me over 20 years ago was to replace all the resistors in my speakers with Vishay resistor bridges. This portion of the upgrade was larger than the cap and inductor upgrade..only thing of equal was to seal the interior of the cabinet with Cascade Vbloc..a cement like product that is drawn into the pores of the wood seals the wood and greatly reduces energy storage of the cabinet.also strengthens the corner joints that are the weakest. A speaker cabinet itself is a passive radiator..not only do the drivers  move and play but also the cabinet.

Poor quality speaker resistors become part of the feedback loop of the amplifier and become part of the signal. Upgrade the resistors.
Tom

A friend of mine has a patent on the selection of travertine stone to be used as an acoustic  sink for the endpin of cellos. The right tile removes the wolf tones present in almost every cello..You may research travertine stones and cut as Tom suggested. Debbie’s website is Cellostone.com

With the absence of the original Cascade Vbloc. I will experiment with quick set cement and mix in a quart or more of Micro Bearing steel and trough on like thin set. Careful to measure and match the amount laid out so the stereo pair have the same volume. Let thoroughly dry for a few days and then carefully vacuum out what may have fallen. Tom

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Unsound maybe you found this.
With much info contained.
I would be interested in seeing how the driver is terminated on the edges so some polarity of the signal does not return into the path of the next uncoming signal.
Same thoughts on any of the Walsh drivers the inside and outside of the cone must react with some signal inversion. Tom.   https://www.bendingwaveusa.com/technology/
Thanks Tom,

When I sold your products I remember smooth studs with no threads at one time there was a switch to threads, but when ?
May send him a couple different sets. Thanks again. Tom
Hello out there.. I have a out of town friend who has a pair of 3.6s and wants to use a set of Audiopoints with them. He is not able to turn them over to check the thread size..I think they are 1/4-20.  Does anyone know for sure. Thanks in advance. Tom
Hello Tom Thiel,

I want to ask you about the shim or shims you added to the driver to aid in alignment. Was there a number such as .125 or .250 shim thickness added singularly or in addition to arrive at your final destination? Is there a minimum fractional distance that the brain can determine as a skewed time offset? Personally I think it is as small as 1/8 of an inch.
Thanks for your insights. Tom

Tom,

Thanks for your answers and response. 

I need to do a time offset on a speaker that already has a physical offset. The new ribbon tweeter I thought would be nearly a drop in has its element recessed by a bout a .5 inches. Now it needs to come further forward. So I need to be creative with the added shim shape or bullnose to blend into the poured granite cabinet..Awesome tuneable
external resonance control
for both woofer and crossover board. Maybe difficult to maintain  a good blended look. Thanks again.
Tom