If the electronic engineer has the curiosity, he is welcome, can contact me anytime, I will ask the owner to organize a private listening session for him. Aloha! |
04-11-15: Steffa2
Hi guys
...
But being an electronic engineer...
So Cheviot, thanks for pointing this out, I'm very interested to check wether this modification is really making difference...cheers guys
Steffa2 You could be the third valuable witness after Cheviot and the owner of these loudspeakers to the sound of these mods. An audiophile-engineer! |
...But being an electronic engineer and daily dealing with technical design issues I'd like to point out that in any product there are NO fixed rules. Any board or circuit could be improved or work even better thanks to some small changes. Since there are no test evidence posted here of what is better before and after the modification, my personal view is that we would need to listen to this product with and without modifications and then take a decision.... Welcome Steffa2 to this discussion, in our field common measurements as frequency response in anhecoic room, Mil & Mol as for the loudspeakers, mean little being only bi-dimensional graphs of what happens in three dimensions. So, as you say, we need to listen to judge. Time and phase response are very important to reconstruct the real event in our rooms. Moreover our ears are very sensitive to phase change at high frequencies, but, if the the number of ways increases and the crossover becomes more and more complex, this reconstruction is very difficult to obtain. |
@steffa2: I don't know if you are an audiophile or not, it doesn't care, you are welcome the next time to listen to these loudspeakers. I can ask the owner to set the cables as before the mods, to listen to the difference.
@Stringreen: only the owner can decide. As I said before no one with sane mind and body will ever spend 9.200$ for a pair of good loudspeakers like these and then let someone mess with the crossovers without care. No this isn't the case.
As for me, I listened to this pair of CS5 finding it very impressive with slight differences in the mid-bass region in comparison to the original one.
Their owner has chosen to keep them after all these years, instead of selling and pass to something else and I can agree with his decision. |
I know someone that took apart his Vandersteen 5 speakers and "modified" this and that. Different yes.....but better?? Richard V saw the mods and although he tried to disuade the owner....upps. I wonder if the Thiel owner could live with his mods ...the Vandersteen guy sold his |
Hi guys
I've seen a lot of fun here and could not avoid to comment : ). It looks like all of you are super experts and technical skilled guys more than me (in this area) so that you can comment on how the design is made and what are the right rules to be applied to improve a speaker. That's great!
But being an electronic engineer and daily dealing with technical design issues I'd like to point out that in any product there are NO fixed rules. Any board or circuit could be improved or work even better thanks to some small changes. Since there are no test evidence posted here of what is better before and after the modification, my personal view is that we would need to listen to this product with and without modifications and then take a decision.
So Cheviot, thanks for pointing this out, I'm very interested to check wether this modification is really making difference...cheers guys
|
I have to say that once 911, when called, run faster...
Anyway I haven't it in for anyone here, it's just that when someone screams I usually keep quiet.
Thanks Zd542, I would like to stop for dinner but we are distant for all practical purposes: I am vegetarian no filet please. All of you (all!) are invited for a dish of spaghetti: we will discuss of the latest news I had last Sunday: the modifications made by Mr. Dissanayake to Infinity IRS V.
Ah! Believe me even without pictures. |
"You hit the target here. As I said before, Zd is only a youngster, he has to be understood. There's the need of guys like him! The funny thing is that without seeing it, he is the biggest friend of Cheviot, upping furiously this thread :) :)
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)"
Thanks. My dead grandmother always said its better to be young than old. As far as me being Cheviot's best friend, you may want to confirm that one with him first. Something tells me he may not agree. Although he's welcome to stop by for dinner any time he likes. I'll make his favorite dish. Filet of Thiel. We have this new butcher in town... |
03-24-15: Maybay
Wow!
How you did it?
Stef23 must be a real Music lover!
Maybay After the listening, I have to say that he is indeed a true music lover and an experienced audiophile. I did this only to let everybody know that there are no boundaries to the real passion. |
03-25-15: Chrshanl37
Ladies this isn't the 8th grade locker room... You hit the target here. As I said before, Zd is only a youngster, he has to be understood. There's the need of guys like him! The funny thing is that without seeing it, he is the biggest friend of Cheviot, upping furiously this thread :) :) |
"03-25-15: Fisick
03-24-15: Zd542
...SHUT MY ACCOUNT OFF. I REALLY DON'T CARE...
Ah! These are really wise words! Hopefully we wait!"
You think they'll really do it? I'm not so sure they will. I've made some fairly controversial comments in the past and if they were going to do something about me, they probably would have. But you never know. This may be my last post ever.
I'm only guessing, but I think the moderators like me. If you read some of my other posts, I give some pretty good advice to people and make some really funny comments. And if I'm wrong on something, I always apologize. But you never know, they could hate me. We'll just have to wait and see. |
Cheviot,
I bet you do want to refocus on the matter of the thread. Just yesterday you accused me of insulting you and said it was uncalled for because you did nothing to warrant it. Well, I proved again with your own words that you do nothing but lie. You also said that my posts were not safe to read and had to be edited. What happened? You backed down on all that pretty easily. All the sudden you just want to move on. The real reason you want to drop all this is because I saved a copy of the discussion and you can't edit it anymore. I'll make a deal with you. Admit you lied and well just leave the issue at that. Otherwise, you're not getting rid of me. Let AG shut my account off, I really don't care.
So now you tell us that you actually went and listened to the speakers. I don't believe you. Yes, you can get one of the other idiot posters, that are probably you, to confirm your story so don't waste your time. Don't believe it. You didn't mention this yesterday in any of your posts. I guess you just need a different story to deflect getting caught in you lies. Go make up something else that's more believable. |
03-24-15: Zd542
...SHUT MY ACCOUNT OFF. I REALLY DON'T CARE... Ah! These are really wise words! Hopefully we wait! |
I would like to re-focus on the matter of the thread, being the other issue either an internal affair or, as all of you have intended, a very little thing.
Last Sunday, after all the chattering this thread produced, I was finally invited to listen to these loudspeakers.
Needless to say I was very curious, because in 1994 I already had the chance to listen to the CS5 without modifications. Take these only as a preliminary impressions.
Seeing this big loudspeaker move slightly when touched on its heavy air base is something that commands respect only for the efforts employed.
Since the first notes the sound seems free from any constriction and the acoustic image floats between and around the loudspeakers. Ummh fantastic! I thought, this is a good sign that all the micro details of phase and time are correctly preserved also after the mods.
The bass frequencies are clearly audible and very well integrated and coherent with the rest of the spectrum as I remembered since the first audition of '94, no change in this respect. And I can assure that the CS5 can really reproduce the first octave of bass.
The thing that my memory reports as a positive changement this time is a lack of excessive darkness (not weight) that the original CS5 had in the mid-bass region. Maybe I remember this particular because that system ('94) was amplified using a solid state that had a big dose of feedback in its circuit, that could only worsen any slight tendence of the speakers.
No here there's air and bloom in some recordings with a well centered voice between the loudspeakers with the orchestra around and back to the singer, reproducing the room ambience of the recording: very convincing!
Another point is clear, Stef23 has a huge musical collection in CDs and LPs that covers the walls of the listening room: he is indeed an experienced audiophile and has ordered the mods knowing what he was doing and the stack where to arrive.
This listening session has been very convincing and raised in me the desire of listen to some more! |
Take it down a notch? It's a very long thread that obviously kept you interested enough to read and comment on. Maybe you feel guilty because you enjoyed reading it. |
Ladies this isn't the 8th grade locker room take it down a notch. |
This threads getting chopped up worse than those poor Thiels. lol. Now its all gone. Someone really wants to censor my comments in the worst way. As luck would have it, I picked up a few tricks from the butcher. I made a backup copy of the thread because I'm not one to be censored. Lets have another look.
Thiel CS5 modifications
I have seen many up-grade and modifications of various hi-fi gear and speakers, but look here!
One of the most complex crossover ever made is extracted from this huge loudspeaker model to arrange a five ways multiwiring crossover panel from the original single one! Not an easy task for sure. I bet this has been done to reduce and divide the tremendous power needed by the CS5 in the original configuration. It's the second link in the landing page:
http://dissanayake.webnode.it/links-/
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-24-15
Responses
03-24-15: Cheviot
For an error this discussion was removed, the following were the original responses
02-12-15: Zd542
When you're driving, have you ever noticed every so often you see some kid that took a perfectly good car and destroyed it for no reason at all? The ones where it looks like someone stepped on the car and the wheels are sticking out at odd angles, the engine sounds like a detuned lawn mower, 2 tone primer, etc... That's what happened to that poor Thiel speaker. What used to be, "One of the most complex crossover ever made", is replaced by something that is not.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Rx8man
Zd, they're also dragging the ruined P.O.S. one inch off the pavement with a big fart muffler hanging down.
Then there's the over-sized "ghetto" wheels on beautiful muscle cars, makes me puke.
Crossovers on the other hand, you better know what the hell you're doing or stay out, measurements alone don't suffice.
Rx8man (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever...
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Zd542
"02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever..."
Just because they did the mods and the speaker still works, doesn't mean that there was no destruction done. Thiel is not a typical speaker. Before they started fooling with it, it was time and phase correct. Very few speakers can make that claim, its pretty rare. By doing those mods, they destroyed what made that speaker special. If you're not familiar with time and phase correct speakers, check out Thiels web site. Also look at Vandersteen and Green Mountain Audio. There are the only companies that I know of that are currently making speakers with this type of design.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?
@Zd542 & Rx8man: Moreover in Europe they don't modify cars to make them bumping or mount big wheels. There are some serious modders like Brabus and AMG for Mercedes, Gemballa for Porsche, Hennessey for Ferrari. Oh yes also Ferrari.
Everything is improvable even the best.
When you are dealing with semi-industrial processes you can bet that a total artisan one can better them, with the right move and the right project. This isn't a task for everyone, this requires courage and a good mind.
Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
He has pictures? I take it all back!! He definitely knows what he is doing if he has pictures, my mistake.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power."
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion.
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Rcprince
The "whrrring" sound you hear when you go to the link is the sound of poor Jim Thiel spinning in his grave.
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I don't need to argue anything. The guy removed the old crossovers and binding post panels from the speakers and ran new speaker wires from the drivers to the new binding post plate he made. So, now the speakers are back together but they're missing something. Crossovers. There's no crossovers in the speakers. Since its probably not a good idea to have the amps power each individual driver directly with no crossover in between, he now needs to use an external active crossover. In doing so, he won't be able to keep the speakers time and phase correct. Like I said before, he took a good speaker and made crap out of it.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Imhififan
A Thiel akubarik passive?
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Fisick
Rcprince:
...
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
The only person that misunderstood anything here is you. Go to the pictures that you referenced. Chose the sort function that goes from oldest to newest, and follow the pictures in order. You'll see that upon completion, the speaker is put back together and the old crossovers are not in the speakers. The only thing this guy did was remove the stock crossover and the internal speaker wires. He then ran new speaker wires to a plate he made with 5 sets of binding posts. There are no crossovers in those speakers. You claim that he did this so it would take less power to drive the speakers. You're correct at least in that. But the only way to do this is to bypass the passive crossovers and go with an active. I told you in my other post that it would be a waste of time in explaining this to you. This is the 2nd time I'm doing so. The only person who's guessing at anything here is you. Can you show me where I'm wrong?
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid)"
I at least agree with that.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away? It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross?"
Don't know. Ask the guy.
"And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
I would suspect he would need that info for the new crossover. But its just a picture and you would have to ask him that.
"02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that."
Going by your pictures, it clearly shows the crossovers out of the speakers after they are already finished. Just look at the position of the new wires that he runs down the inside of the cabinet and the position of the new binding post plate he makes. Its in the wrong spot. Its up much higher up then where they need to be. But don't take my word for it, look at the pictures.
Here's a picture of the back of the speaker before the crossover comes out.
tinypic.com#.VN-jHV2Cgr4
See the crossover. Its kind of hard to miss. Now look at this picture.
tinypic.com#.VN-jjl2Cgr4
This is the speaker on its way back together. See all the brand new white insulation he stuffs in the crossover USED to be.
The funny part here is all this proof that you asked for, and I'm giving isn't even necessary. In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
You'll have to do better than that, I get them every day. What's the matter? You don't want to talk about the speakers any more? lol. Smart move.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post.
I hope this helps for all!
I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Zd542
You're good. I'll give you that much. I didn't see that one coming. You win, and well played.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Swampwalker
So the purpose of that exercise was to take the crossover out of the cabinet...to make it a CS 5 with outboard crossover?
Swampwalker (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Swampwalker: the real purpose if this complex operation that has taken 1 week of hard work, a lot of courage and expertise was to use multiple single ended class A tube amps on the different ways. The outboard crossover with the new high quality cables and the air base suspension of the loudspeakers added a lot of fine details to the sound presentation of the CS5, so that Jim Thiel would have been proud of.
You have to consider the enormous current backwave that 6 drivers like those of the CS5 send back to the amp to understand this modification. A very high dumping factor of a single amp, in this case, can be insufficient to obtain the best performance of the loudspeaker system.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Shakeydeal
"It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them."
Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey
Shakeydeal (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Shakeydeal: see my previous reply to Swampwalker, the phrase you quote refers like a proof ab absurdo to the crossovers that, as a matter of fact, aren't touched.
But that is not my opinion about the upgrade. I think they still are Thiels CS5 with so much more to reveal!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Zd542
"Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey"
Don't waste your time. We've been trying to tell him this for days. He's either the butcher himself, or knows him, and is taking all of this very personally. He challenged me to come up with a reasonable argument as to why the speakers are no longer time and phase correct, and I was able to do so. Conclusively. Using the pictures he referenced, I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speaker, as they would have to be if you wanted to access driver individually, and would need to use an active xover for it all to work properly and get the efficiency you would need to make it an easier load for the amps. So his response was to get new pictures posted over night so he could have new ammo to fuel his argument. I have to give him credit. Didn't see that one coming.
Cheviot,
No doubt you read the above and are now flipping out. I know, its crazy. I'll do anything to win the argument. That's what you'll say. I told you before that I didn't need to argue anything, and I still don't. We both know you somehow got those new pics posted. We could just leave it at that. And to be honest, I do have a certain amount of respect just for your will not to give up. Its creative and caught me completely off guard. Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Yes, if I remember well that is an option that Linn has offered since the Isobarik model came out. In 1989 I listened to Isobarik with three LK280 power amps, each driving one way of the two channels: very detailed and full-bodied sound!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
02-14-15: Fisick
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Precisely, taking control of a big loudspeaker it's not an easy task for a single power amp; reaching the best performances that a loudspeaker system can achieve, it's another step that could require to free the project of its (few, as in this case) commercial limitations.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Rcprince
If I'm not mistaken, the Linn system basically put the crossover slopes into the amplifiers themselves (at least that's how they did it in their "Aktiv" systems), thereby limiting the amps' bandwidths. So you have the benefit of an outboard active crossover to replace the passive crossover in the speaker. I heard that demonstrated, and it did seem to sound better than running one amp through the passive crossover network, but the fact is that you still needed the active crossovers in the amps for it to work. Don't know what the system you listened to in 1989 was, but my experience was in the 90s.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
@Rcprince: the system I listened to was with three stereo power amps driving the internal passive crossovers of the speakers, that since that time, offered this intelligent option. Nowadays I think that with Linn products you can choose to use passive or active crossovers (these one, as you say, contained in the amps). Anyway I think, like Jim Thiel did, that a good well engineered passive filter is the preferable option.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Maybay
Zd542: ...Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Cheviot has demonstrated that the crossovers remained there as part of the loudspeakers and you were wrong. He said that they were extracted from the speakers since the opening post. Moreover the caption on Dissanayake's site clearly states: "Thiel CS5 modifications by Dissanayake, to obtain a five ways multiwiring crossover panel, in four steps!", haven't you seen that? The only fool here seems to be you.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Zd542
"The only fool here seems to be you."
Maybe. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has called me a fool.
If you read the posts, its clear that Cheviot is a fan of the mods, but really doesn't know exactly what was done. So as he is arguing the points that he assures us to be true, things keep changing.
"@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers."
"@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
"@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion."
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!"
He was right about making a connection plate with connections for the individual drivers. But no one was arguing that point. It really was clear from the pics. "I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!". Really. Looking at the pics, I already proved that wasn't the case. They were removed and some type of cotton or insulation was stuffed it where the xover used to be.
So far, this is all great, but every one keeps bringing up the pics, so its only fair to take a closer look at them.
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
If you have to reference pics to support your case, those would be the ones. But just because they are the best pics to reference, they by no means make his case. You can just reread my post for the details as to why this is so. And at this point, thats it. The only thing we can conclude was that the xovers were removed and some type of mods were done to the speakers.
Then something interesting happens. I wake up Sunday morning and checked my emails and posts, etc... and I happen to see this post.
"02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post. I hope this helps for all! I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion."
Well, he's at least partially right. Pics 47-48-49-50 are clearly the ones I would use if I was Cheviot trying to make his case. What I find interesting about these pics, is that they were posted overnight. Almost like they were put there so someone can win an argument. No one in their right mind would reference pics 17,18,21,22,23 and 24 if pics 47,48,49, and 50 were there. So now you are going to say that I'm grasping at straws and that I'll say anything I can to win the argument and not look stupid. Maybe. But I already made the case that I don't have to argue anything. Digital pictures are like digital music files in that they both use tags that hold meta data. You can tell your web browser to show picture tags. The dates that pics 47,48,49 and 50 showed on their tags was that they were added just several hours before. Overnight. Literally.
Now why would that be? The only reason that I can think of, is so someone can win an argument. Adding new pics overnight. lol. Well, since we have new pics, lets have a look at them as well. The 2 best pics, 48 and 49, leave me with some questions. The pics don't really show how anything is connected. Not clearly anyway. The only thing that stands out, is that the xover looks like it was just thrown over a bunch of speaker cables. They don't clearly show any wires connected to the xover at one end and the speaker at the other end. Its just a bunch of wires running under the speakers to where ever. I mean, if it were my masterpiece of engineering, I'd have a little pride in how I ran all those cables. Not only that, I thought the whole project was done in order to use multiple amps. The pics only show 1 set of speaker cables that look like they go to some type of amp (the thick ones at the bottom with red and blue ends). Where's the rest of the cables that you will need for more than 1 amp? No need to do all that work for just 1 pair of cables and 1 amp.
So, back to the original question.
"The only fool here seems to be you."
I guess it depends on what you consider a fool to be. I'm not the one who butchered a perfectly good pair of expensive speakers, and make up a bunch of lies in an effort to cover up what can only be considered, at best, an abortion. Maybe you can post more pics and get it right this time. Make shure you don't mess the tags up again.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-26-15: Unsound
In that Jim Thiel made adjustments in his cross-over to accommodate for fractions of and inch in time alignment, I just hope the modifier has access to equipment (anechoic chamber?) for measurements like square wave response, step response, etc., before considering such an endeavor. Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole. Seems like an experiment that could easily come to be a very costly mistake. I can just imagine Jim turning in his grave.
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Zd542
"Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole."
What about if they modified the pole by chopping it up into little pieces and then glued it back together, so that it's now an audiophile pole to match the speakers?
"02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Agreed. But just imagine if I had those poor butchered Thiels. I wouldn't be able to get any sleep.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Unsound
Ha!
Open a thread on a forum and then suggest others "...lay quietly."
Perhaps you're not aware of what Thiel had previously said on this very subject?
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Cheviot
@Unsound: It was only a joke Unsound, you said Jim is turning in its grave, I don't think so, I said if he is turning it's only to find a better position.
There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
I'm just curious and I'd like to ask a question. If you choose not to answer it, I'll understand. Assuming that you have no direct involvement with the person who modified the Thiels (By the looks of it, from reading their posts, its probably Maybay or Fisick), why are you still so loyal and willing to believe these people after they went and added those extra pics to the web site, just to win an argument? It doesn't make any sense. If you take a step back and try to look at the situation objectively, there's more holes in their story than they drilled into the speakers.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
"There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Sorry, but I forgot to put this comment in my last post. The above statement is not true. The speaker is no longer time and phase correct. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look up the requirements for making a speaker and you can see for yourself.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
At first glance, I can see how you would say that there is nothing absurd about these mods. But when you look at the design, its clear that the speaker is no longer time and phase correct. Why is that important? Because its the most important feature of Thiel speakers. That's what makes them special.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Maybay
02-27-15: Zd542
...What about if they modified the pole by chopping it...
The only thing chopped here have been your bad language against Cheviot in your post of the 02-14-15 by the Moderator of this thread. You are ridiculous. I can understand why he doesn't want to answer you. Please, stop trolling here.
03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not...
Reading what you say it's even worst: so you are writing a new audio bible here and projects like the Linn Isobarik and Akurate 242 named before and countless many others that encourage multi-amplification are crap for you? Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head.
It seems here that Zd is having a nightmare since two weeks now: he dreams Cheviot "overnight" like a butcher, but it's only a bad dream for him. :) :)
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
"Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head."
Clueless idiot. I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument. Now you're comparing this ridiculous hack job to Linn? lol. The funny thing is, you're right. Start off with a nice pair of Thiels and end up with a pair of Linn. Linn speakers sound so bad, they Kan't even spell them right. Well done. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what you'll akomplish next.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
To anyone other than Maybay that may be following this, he selected a piece of what I said that may be confusing.
" 03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not..."
Its one of those statements where if you take it out of context, like he does, it may not be clear. Here's a copy of whole statement, not just a piece selected just to argue.
"He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Reading through it again, just to be sure, I don't feel the need to make any changes, because its all accurate. Its fairly basic stuff that you can get out of a book.
Also, just to be fair, he mentions some Linn speakers. As stated in my last post, I don't like Linn, so I'm not up on all of their models. But I wouldn't want to do to them, the same thing that others have done to me on this thread, so I looked up some info on the Akurate 242. Turns out I'm a lucky guesser. Linn recommends the use of their active xover for best results.
To Maybay:
I wonder why that would be? Active xovers? Well, if you read my post again, I explain it. And yes, I know you'll come up with more silly comments that are dumber than those butchered Thiels. You should at least take some pointers from Cheviot. He's way smarter than you. His picture swap idea was fantastic, even though it didn't work. I still respect the effort. Judging by your last post, you've got nothing for me.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-04-15: Cheviot
I would like to thank some of the members here for mantaining alive this discussion thread.
Anyway it's a weird thing that "Stef23", the owner of these loudspeakers, can't post here for a strange limitation that stops the newcomers of this site to give their opinion here. He can log in with his username but not post.
For this reason he has sent me the following message that I faithfully report. I have to say that I haven't had the pleasure to know him personally until one week ago at a very fancy restaurant:
--
Stef23:
Dear Audiogoners,
I've seen your comments about the modifications made to the Thiel CS5. Let me introduce myself to your community: my name is Stefano, I'm the owner of these loudspeakers.
I would like to make some observations: 1° I am a music lover and I think that the various components of a stereo system are just means to listen to music in the best way and, if possible in a sublime way; 2° I've purchased the CS5 considering them as an optimum product and the best that I could afford; 3° every thing built by a man is sooner or later improvable by someone else. After some years of listening to the standard version I felt the necessity to enhance their performances and, other then change them, I preferred to go with the modifications, with the kind of curiosity that in every field can lead to improvements, putting them on the line, risking my loudspeakers. I called Dissanayake, whose amplifiers I already owned (and I still have), because I considered him to be the man who could have pursued the project. The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers, improved the cables of the woofer and subwoofers, divided the various ways allowing multi-wiring & multi-amplification. Improvements are perceptible in the soundstage re-creation and in a better tonal balance.
I stay tuned for any further clarification, admitting my ignorance in technical matters...I'm only a doctor.
Best regards to all of you
Stef23
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
Your last post is appreciated. Not many people would have posted such a letter. At least now, we can see a story that matches the pics.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
"02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere."
"The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers,"
You must be using the alternate definition of proof.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick
Thank you Fisick for your comment.
As far as regards the crossover: enclosing it in external wood cases prevent it from receiving any interference from the drivers and helps also for the issues you refer to like humidity and variations of temperature. This time, moreover, any part failure or upgrade is easily possible.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Zd542
"03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?"
You guys are bunch crybabies. The only thing you're good at is being wrong. This is not really a free site where you can express ideas on audio? I don't see where anyone was stopped from saying what they wanted to. You say you don't like censorship, yet you practice it. Remember the pictures you posted overnight so you could win the argument? The real issue here is that your feelings were hurt because some of us disagreed with you on the speakers. But I'll leave it at that because I can just imagine the tears building up in your eyes as you read this.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-06-15: Maybay
03-02-15: Zd542
...I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument...
Ah ha! :) Probably you are a well known youngster, for this I forgive you. I have to say that this isn't your personal blog where to unburden yourself to everyone. You are taking all this personally and are able only to offend and insult other members. I don't know how this is tolerated here. I will not do the same.
I am not the one who modified the CS5 and this isn't a lottery where to win something, your hate is clouding over your mind. I don't loose my time giving answers to someone who is having this behaviour here, was wrong since the beginning, and isn't even capable of quoting.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-09-15: Fisick
03-05-15 Zd542:
you must be using an alternate definition of proof
Needless. For those of you that don't want to read all the posts: this troll insisted that the crossovers weren't used anymore and he was wrong, no need to joke here. Then, to remark this, he used bad language against Cheviot that was removed by the Moderator, saying that an active crossover was used. This is the right sequence. Just read below:
02-14-15: Zd542
...In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Now, after the moderation, he feels safe enough to continue with his normal action of disturb.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-24-15: Zd542
I have to give you guys credit. I've never seen anyone fight so hard to win an argument. First you altered the pic's after I proved you wrong. Now you somehow got the comments modified and claim the AG moderator did it to make the thread safe. And I see now there's even more new pics. As usual, its just more BS. You guys edited my words, not for using foul language, but because I proved you wrong and made you look like the fools that you are. Since when is calling someone a speaker butcher foul language? It's true. You can now add to that the title post butcher.
Since the only way the words in my post could be altered is by Audiogon's moderators, I might as well give you something to moderate.
AUDIOGON MODERATORS. YOU KNOW THAT WHILE I VOICED MY OPINION IN A DIRECT WAY, NO LANGUAGE WAS USED IN THIS THREAD THAT IS ANY WORSE THAN IN ANY OF MY OTHER THREADS. SO IF YOU EDITED MY POST JUST TO APPEASE A BUNCH OF CRYBABIES, YOU CAN KISS MY ASS. YOU'RE NO BETTER THAN THEY ARE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, SHUT MY ACCOUNT OFF. I REALLY DON'T CARE. BESIDES, YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST 15-20 ACTIVE MEMBERS STILL LEFT ON THIS SITE. ONE MORE WON'T BE MISSED.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-24-15: Cheviot
As I wrote to the Management of this site:
this discussion thread isn't in any way unfavourable for Thiel; I have never offended or insulted anyone who has taken part to the discussion; The discussion is, on the contrary, re-evaluating a top product of over twenty years ago showing the will of the owner to avoid a loudspeaker change and, if possible, upgrade its performances. That's all.
How it's possible that a member here knows exactly what I have told in a private conversation with the support crew of the site? This is at least weird, unfair and unexpected.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Post your response
Subject
Your response
"How it's possible that a member here knows exactly what I have told in a private conversation with the support crew of the site? This is at least weird, unfair and unexpected. Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)" Have no fear, I haven't spoken to anyone at Audiogon. Well, except where I told then they could kiss my ass in my last post. But other than that, no. You're just upset that I figured things out and speak the truth. That's something you can't do. " I have never offended or insulted anyone who has taken part to the discussion; The discussion is, on the contrary, re-evaluating a top product of over twenty years ago showing the will of the owner to avoid a loudspeaker change and, if possible, upgrade its performances. That's all." There's another lie. You must have forgot to edit a few things in the thread when you had the chance. "02-13-15: Cheviot @Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page? " "02-14-15: Cheviot Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:" "02-14-15: Cheviot "Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa" Don't worry, it's the siren, I've called 911. Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)" "02-16-15: Cheviot @Shakeydeal: see my previous reply to Swampwalker, the phrase you quote refers like a proof ab absurdo" "02-23-15: Zd542 "The only fool here seems to be you." Maybe. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has called me a fool." "02-27-15: Cheviot All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition. Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)" And there you have it. That's Cheviot not insulting anyone. Well Cheviot, you can get in line with the AG moderators and kiss my ass as well. And in case you are wondering, that was an insult.
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You are logged in as Zd542
|
"How it's possible that a member here knows exactly what I have told in a private conversation with the support crew of the site? This is at least weird, unfair and unexpected.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Have no fear, I haven't spoken to anyone at Audiogon. Well, except where I told then they could kiss my ass in my last post. But other than that, no. You're just upset that I figured things out and speak the truth. That's something you can't do.
" I have never offended or insulted anyone who has taken part to the discussion; The discussion is, on the contrary, re-evaluating a top product of over twenty years ago showing the will of the owner to avoid a loudspeaker change and, if possible, upgrade its performances. That's all."
There's another lie. You must have forgot to edit a few things in the thread when you had the chance.
"02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page? "
"02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:"
"02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
"02-16-15: Cheviot
@Shakeydeal: see my previous reply to Swampwalker, the phrase you quote refers like a proof ab absurdo"
"02-23-15: Zd542
"The only fool here seems to be you."
Maybe. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has called me a fool."
"02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
And there you have it. That's Cheviot not insulting anyone.
Well Cheviot, you can get in line with the AG moderators and kiss my ass as well. And in case you are wondering, that was an insult. |
As I wrote to the Management of this site:
this discussion thread isn't in any way unfavourable for Thiel; I have never offended or insulted anyone who has taken part to the discussion; The discussion is, on the contrary, re-evaluating a top product of over twenty years ago showing the will of the owner to avoid a loudspeaker change and, if possible, upgrade its performances. That's all.
How it's possible that a member here knows exactly what I have told in a private conversation with the support crew of the site? This is at least weird, unfair and unexpected. |
I have to give you guys credit. I've never seen anyone fight so hard to win an argument. First you altered the pic's after I proved you wrong. Now you somehow got the comments modified and claim the AG moderator did it to make the thread safe. And I see now there's even more new pics. As usual, its just more BS. You guys edited my words, not for using foul language, but because I proved you wrong and made you look like the fools that you are. Since when is calling someone a speaker butcher foul language? It's true. You can now add to that the title post butcher.
Since the only way the words in my post could be altered is by Audiogon's moderators, I might as well give you something to moderate.
AUDIOGON MODERATORS. YOU KNOW THAT WHILE I VOICED MY OPINION IN A DIRECT WAY, NO LANGUAGE WAS USED IN THIS THREAD THAT IS ANY WORSE THAN IN ANY OF MY OTHER THREADS. SO IF YOU EDITED MY POST JUST TO APPEASE A BUNCH OF CRYBABIES, YOU CAN KISS MY ASS. YOU'RE NO BETTER THAN THEY ARE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, SHUT MY ACCOUNT OFF. I REALLY DON'T CARE. BESIDES, YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST 15-20 ACTIVE MEMBERS STILL LEFT ON THIS SITE. ONE MORE WON'T BE MISSED. |
Wow!
How you did it?
Stef23 must be a real Music lover! |
For an error this discussion was removed, the following were the original responses
02-12-15: Zd542
When you're driving, have you ever noticed every so often you see some kid that took a perfectly good car and destroyed it for no reason at all? The ones where it looks like someone stepped on the car and the wheels are sticking out at odd angles, the engine sounds like a detuned lawn mower, 2 tone primer, etc... That's what happened to that poor Thiel speaker. What used to be, "One of the most complex crossover ever made", is replaced by something that is not.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Rx8man
Zd, they're also dragging the ruined P.O.S. one inch off the pavement with a big fart muffler hanging down.
Then there's the over-sized "ghetto" wheels on beautiful muscle cars, makes me puke.
Crossovers on the other hand, you better know what the hell you're doing or stay out, measurements alone don't suffice.
Rx8man (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever...
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Zd542
"02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever..."
Just because they did the mods and the speaker still works, doesn't mean that there was no destruction done. Thiel is not a typical speaker. Before they started fooling with it, it was time and phase correct. Very few speakers can make that claim, its pretty rare. By doing those mods, they destroyed what made that speaker special. If you're not familiar with time and phase correct speakers, check out Thiels web site. Also look at Vandersteen and Green Mountain Audio. There are the only companies that I know of that are currently making speakers with this type of design.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?
@Zd542 & Rx8man: Moreover in Europe they don't modify cars to make them bumping or mount big wheels. There are some serious modders like Brabus and AMG for Mercedes, Gemballa for Porsche, Hennessey for Ferrari. Oh yes also Ferrari.
Everything is improvable even the best.
When you are dealing with semi-industrial processes you can bet that a total artisan one can better them, with the right move and the right project. This isn't a task for everyone, this requires courage and a good mind.
Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
He has pictures? I take it all back!! He definitely knows what he is doing if he has pictures, my mistake.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power."
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion.
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Rcprince
The "whrrring" sound you hear when you go to the link is the sound of poor Jim Thiel spinning in his grave.
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I don't need to argue anything. The guy removed the old crossovers and binding post panels from the speakers and ran new speaker wires from the drivers to the new binding post plate he made. So, now the speakers are back together but they're missing something. Crossovers. There's no crossovers in the speakers. Since its probably not a good idea to have the amps power each individual driver directly with no crossover in between, he now needs to use an external active crossover. In doing so, he won't be able to keep the speakers time and phase correct. Like I said before, he took a good speaker and made crap out of it.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Imhififan
A Thiel akubarik passive?
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Fisick
Rcprince:
...
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
The only person that misunderstood anything here is you. Go to the pictures that you referenced. Chose the sort function that goes from oldest to newest, and follow the pictures in order. You'll see that upon completion, the speaker is put back together and the old crossovers are not in the speakers. The only thing this guy did was remove the stock crossover and the internal speaker wires. He then ran new speaker wires to a plate he made with 5 sets of binding posts. There are no crossovers in those speakers. You claim that he did this so it would take less power to drive the speakers. You're correct at least in that. But the only way to do this is to bypass the passive crossovers and go with an active. I told you in my other post that it would be a waste of time in explaining this to you. This is the 2nd time I'm doing so. The only person who's guessing at anything here is you. Can you show me where I'm wrong?
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid)"
I at least agree with that.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away? It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross?"
Don't know. Ask the guy.
"And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
I would suspect he would need that info for the new crossover. But its just a picture and you would have to ask him that.
"02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that."
Going by your pictures, it clearly shows the crossovers out of the speakers after they are already finished. Just look at the position of the new wires that he runs down the inside of the cabinet and the position of the new binding post plate he makes. Its in the wrong spot. Its up much higher up then where they need to be. But don't take my word for it, look at the pictures.
Here's a picture of the back of the speaker before the crossover comes out.
tinypic.com#.VN-jHV2Cgr4
See the crossover. Its kind of hard to miss. Now look at this picture.
tinypic.com#.VN-jjl2Cgr4
This is the speaker on its way back together. See all the brand new white insulation he stuffs in the crossover USED to be.
The funny part here is all this proof that you asked for, and I'm giving isn't even necessary. In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
You'll have to do better than that, I get them every day. What's the matter? You don't want to talk about the speakers any more? lol. Smart move.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post.
I hope this helps for all!
I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Zd542
You're good. I'll give you that much. I didn't see that one coming. You win, and well played.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Swampwalker
So the purpose of that exercise was to take the crossover out of the cabinet...to make it a CS 5 with outboard crossover?
Swampwalker (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Swampwalker: the real purpose if this complex operation that has taken 1 week of hard work, a lot of courage and expertise was to use multiple single ended class A tube amps on the different ways. The outboard crossover with the new high quality cables and the air base suspension of the loudspeakers added a lot of fine details to the sound presentation of the CS5, so that Jim Thiel would have been proud of.
You have to consider the enormous current backwave that 6 drivers like those of the CS5 send back to the amp to understand this modification. A very high dumping factor of a single amp, in this case, can be insufficient to obtain the best performance of the loudspeaker system.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Shakeydeal
"It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them."
Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey
Shakeydeal (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Shakeydeal: see my previous reply to Swampwalker, the phrase you quote refers like a proof ab absurdo to the crossovers that, as a matter of fact, aren't touched.
But that is not my opinion about the upgrade. I think they still are Thiels CS5 with so much more to reveal!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Zd542
"Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey"
Don't waste your time. We've been trying to tell him this for days. He's either the butcher himself, or knows him, and is taking all of this very personally. He challenged me to come up with a reasonable argument as to why the speakers are no longer time and phase correct, and I was able to do so. Conclusively. Using the pictures he referenced, I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speaker, as they would have to be if you wanted to access driver individually, and would need to use an active xover for it all to work properly and get the efficiency you would need to make it an easier load for the amps. So his response was to get new pictures posted over night so he could have new ammo to fuel his argument. I have to give him credit. Didn't see that one coming.
Cheviot,
No doubt you read the above and are now flipping out. I know, its crazy. I'll do anything to win the argument. That's what you'll say. I told you before that I didn't need to argue anything, and I still don't. We both know you somehow got those new pics posted. We could just leave it at that. And to be honest, I do have a certain amount of respect just for your will not to give up. Its creative and caught me completely off guard. Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Yes, if I remember well that is an option that Linn has offered since the Isobarik model came out. In 1989 I listened to Isobarik with three LK280 power amps, each driving one way of the two channels: very detailed and full-bodied sound!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
02-14-15: Fisick
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Precisely, taking control of a big loudspeaker it's not an easy task for a single power amp; reaching the best performances that a loudspeaker system can achieve, it's another step that could require to free the project of its (few, as in this case) commercial limitations.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Rcprince
If I'm not mistaken, the Linn system basically put the crossover slopes into the amplifiers themselves (at least that's how they did it in their "Aktiv" systems), thereby limiting the amps' bandwidths. So you have the benefit of an outboard active crossover to replace the passive crossover in the speaker. I heard that demonstrated, and it did seem to sound better than running one amp through the passive crossover network, but the fact is that you still needed the active crossovers in the amps for it to work. Don't know what the system you listened to in 1989 was, but my experience was in the 90s.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
@Rcprince: the system I listened to was with three stereo power amps driving the internal passive crossovers of the speakers, that since that time, offered this intelligent option. Nowadays I think that with Linn products you can choose to use passive or active crossovers (these one, as you say, contained in the amps). Anyway I think, like Jim Thiel did, that a good well engineered passive filter is the preferable option.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Maybay
Zd542: ...Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Cheviot has demonstrated that the crossovers remained there as part of the loudspeakers and you were wrong. He said that they were extracted from the speakers since the opening post. Moreover the caption on Dissanayake's site clearly states: "Thiel CS5 modifications by Dissanayake, to obtain a five ways multiwiring crossover panel, in four steps!", haven't you seen that? The only fool here seems to be you.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Zd542
"The only fool here seems to be you."
Maybe. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has called me a fool.
If you read the posts, its clear that Cheviot is a fan of the mods, but really doesn't know exactly what was done. So as he is arguing the points that he assures us to be true, things keep changing.
"@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers."
"@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
"@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion."
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!"
He was right about making a connection plate with connections for the individual drivers. But no one was arguing that point. It really was clear from the pics. "I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!". Really. Looking at the pics, I already proved that wasn't the case. They were removed and some type of cotton or insulation was stuffed it where the xover used to be.
So far, this is all great, but every one keeps bringing up the pics, so its only fair to take a closer look at them.
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
If you have to reference pics to support your case, those would be the ones. But just because they are the best pics to reference, they by no means make his case. You can just reread my post for the details as to why this is so. And at this point, thats it. The only thing we can conclude was that the xovers were removed and some type of mods were done to the speakers.
Then something interesting happens. I wake up Sunday morning and checked my emails and posts, etc... and I happen to see this post.
"02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post. I hope this helps for all! I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion."
Well, he's at least partially right. Pics 47-48-49-50 are clearly the ones I would use if I was Cheviot trying to make his case. What I find interesting about these pics, is that they were posted overnight. Almost like they were put there so someone can win an argument. No one in their right mind would reference pics 17,18,21,22,23 and 24 if pics 47,48,49, and 50 were there. So now you are going to say that I'm grasping at straws and that I'll say anything I can to win the argument and not look stupid. Maybe. But I already made the case that I don't have to argue anything. Digital pictures are like digital music files in that they both use tags that hold meta data. You can tell your web browser to show picture tags. The dates that pics 47,48,49 and 50 showed on their tags was that they were added just several hours before. Overnight. Literally.
Now why would that be? The only reason that I can think of, is so someone can win an argument. Adding new pics overnight. lol. Well, since we have new pics, lets have a look at them as well. The 2 best pics, 48 and 49, leave me with some questions. The pics don't really show how anything is connected. Not clearly anyway. The only thing that stands out, is that the xover looks like it was just thrown over a bunch of speaker cables. They don't clearly show any wires connected to the xover at one end and the speaker at the other end. Its just a bunch of wires running under the speakers to where ever. I mean, if it were my masterpiece of engineering, I'd have a little pride in how I ran all those cables. Not only that, I thought the whole project was done in order to use multiple amps. The pics only show 1 set of speaker cables that look like they go to some type of amp (the thick ones at the bottom with red and blue ends). Where's the rest of the cables that you will need for more than 1 amp? No need to do all that work for just 1 pair of cables and 1 amp.
So, back to the original question.
"The only fool here seems to be you."
I guess it depends on what you consider a fool to be. I'm not the one who butchered a perfectly good pair of expensive speakers, and make up a bunch of lies in an effort to cover up what can only be considered, at best, an abortion. Maybe you can post more pics and get it right this time. Make shure you don't mess the tags up again.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-26-15: Unsound
In that Jim Thiel made adjustments in his cross-over to accommodate for fractions of and inch in time alignment, I just hope the modifier has access to equipment (anechoic chamber?) for measurements like square wave response, step response, etc., before considering such an endeavor. Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole. Seems like an experiment that could easily come to be a very costly mistake. I can just imagine Jim turning in his grave.
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Zd542
"Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole."
What about if they modified the pole by chopping it up into little pieces and then glued it back together, so that it's now an audiophile pole to match the speakers?
"02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Agreed. But just imagine if I had those poor butchered Thiels. I wouldn't be able to get any sleep.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Unsound
Ha!
Open a thread on a forum and then suggest others "...lay quietly."
Perhaps you're not aware of what Thiel had previously said on this very subject?
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Cheviot
@Unsound: It was only a joke Unsound, you said Jim is turning in its grave, I don't think so, I said if he is turning it's only to find a better position.
There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
I'm just curious and I'd like to ask a question. If you choose not to answer it, I'll understand. Assuming that you have no direct involvement with the person who modified the Thiels (By the looks of it, from reading their posts, its probably Maybay or Fisick), why are you still so loyal and willing to believe these people after they went and added those extra pics to the web site, just to win an argument? It doesn't make any sense. If you take a step back and try to look at the situation objectively, there's more holes in their story than they drilled into the speakers.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
"There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Sorry, but I forgot to put this comment in my last post. The above statement is not true. The speaker is no longer time and phase correct. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look up the requirements for making a speaker and you can see for yourself.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
At first glance, I can see how you would say that there is nothing absurd about these mods. But when you look at the design, its clear that the speaker is no longer time and phase correct. Why is that important? Because its the most important feature of Thiel speakers. That's what makes them special.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Maybay
02-27-15: Zd542
...What about if they modified the pole by chopping it...
The only thing chopped here have been your bad language against Cheviot in your post of the 02-14-15 by the Moderator of this thread. You are ridiculous. I can understand why he doesn't want to answer you. Please, stop trolling here.
03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not...
Reading what you say it's even worst: so you are writing a new audio bible here and projects like the Linn Isobarik and Akurate 242 named before and countless many others that encourage multi-amplification are crap for you? Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head.
It seems here that Zd is having a nightmare since two weeks now: he dreams Cheviot "overnight" like a butcher, but it's only a bad dream for him. :) :)
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
"Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head."
Clueless idiot. I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument. Now you're comparing this ridiculous hack job to Linn? lol. The funny thing is, you're right. Start off with a nice pair of Thiels and end up with a pair of Linn. Linn speakers sound so bad, they Kan't even spell them right. Well done. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what you'll akomplish next.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
To anyone other than Maybay that may be following this, he selected a piece of what I said that may be confusing.
" 03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not..."
Its one of those statements where if you take it out of context, like he does, it may not be clear. Here's a copy of whole statement, not just a piece selected just to argue.
"He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Reading through it again, just to be sure, I don't feel the need to make any changes, because its all accurate. Its fairly basic stuff that you can get out of a book.
Also, just to be fair, he mentions some Linn speakers. As stated in my last post, I don't like Linn, so I'm not up on all of their models. But I wouldn't want to do to them, the same thing that others have done to me on this thread, so I looked up some info on the Akurate 242. Turns out I'm a lucky guesser. Linn recommends the use of their active xover for best results.
To Maybay:
I wonder why that would be? Active xovers? Well, if you read my post again, I explain it. And yes, I know you'll come up with more silly comments that are dumber than those butchered Thiels. You should at least take some pointers from Cheviot. He's way smarter than you. His picture swap idea was fantastic, even though it didn't work. I still respect the effort. Judging by your last post, you've got nothing for me.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-04-15: Cheviot
I would like to thank some of the members here for mantaining alive this discussion thread.
Anyway it's a weird thing that "Stef23", the owner of these loudspeakers, can't post here for a strange limitation that stops the newcomers of this site to give their opinion here. He can log in with his username but not post.
For this reason he has sent me the following message that I faithfully report. I have to say that I haven't had the pleasure to know him personally until one week ago at a very fancy restaurant:
--
Stef23:
Dear Audiogoners,
I've seen your comments about the modifications made to the Thiel CS5. Let me introduce myself to your community: my name is Stefano, I'm the owner of these loudspeakers.
I would like to make some observations: 1° I am a music lover and I think that the various components of a stereo system are just means to listen to music in the best way and, if possible in a sublime way; 2° I've purchased the CS5 considering them as an optimum product and the best that I could afford; 3° every thing built by a man is sooner or later improvable by someone else. After some years of listening to the standard version I felt the necessity to enhance their performances and, other then change them, I preferred to go with the modifications, with the kind of curiosity that in every field can lead to improvements, putting them on the line, risking my loudspeakers. I called Dissanayake, whose amplifiers I already owned (and I still have), because I considered him to be the man who could have pursued the project. The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers, improved the cables of the woofer and subwoofers, divided the various ways allowing multi-wiring & multi-amplification. Improvements are perceptible in the soundstage re-creation and in a better tonal balance.
I stay tuned for any further clarification, admitting my ignorance in technical matters...I'm only a doctor.
Best regards to all of you
Stef23
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
Your last post is appreciated. Not many people would have posted such a letter. At least now, we can see a story that matches the pics.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
"02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere."
"The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers,"
You must be using the alternate definition of proof.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick
Thank you Fisick for your comment.
As far as regards the crossover: enclosing it in external wood cases prevent it from receiving any interference from the drivers and helps also for the issues you refer to like humidity and variations of temperature. This time, moreover, any part failure or upgrade is easily possible.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Zd542
"03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?"
You guys are bunch crybabies. The only thing you're good at is being wrong. This is not really a free site where you can express ideas on audio? I don't see where anyone was stopped from saying what they wanted to. You say you don't like censorship, yet you practice it. Remember the pictures you posted overnight so you could win the argument? The real issue here is that your feelings were hurt because some of us disagreed with you on the speakers. But I'll leave it at that because I can just imagine the tears building up in your eyes as you read this.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-06-15: Maybay
03-02-15: Zd542
...I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument...
Ah ha! :) Probably you are a well known youngster, for this I forgive you. I have to say that this isn't your personal blog where to unburden yourself to everyone. You are taking all this personally and are able only to offend and insult other members. I don't know how this is tolerated here. I will not do the same.
I am not the one who modified the CS5 and this isn't a lottery where to win something, your hate is clouding over your mind. I don't loose my time giving answers to someone who is having this behaviour here, was wrong since the beginning, and isn't even capable of quoting.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-09-15: Fisick
03-05-15 Zd542:
you must be using an alternate definition of proof
Needless. For those of you that don't want to read all the posts: this troll insisted that the crossovers weren't used anymore and he was wrong, no need to joke here. Then, to remark this, he used bad language against Cheviot that was removed by the Moderator, saying that an active crossover was used. This is the right sequence. Just read below:
02-14-15: Zd542
...In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Now, after the moderation, he feels safe enough to continue with his normal action of disturb.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread) |
