I would think, (Jim Thiel was my mentor and a great friend for 30 years), that your next step would be into the Sound Labs, which were at least technologically, Jim Thiel's speaker technology of 'choice if not design'. He recognized the inherent phase and time correctness of the electrostatic, yet chose to pursue the 'dynamic' loudspeaker as it was perhaps more acceptable, and certainly less 'limited' in 1976 when he, Kathy and Tom Thiel started the company.
In saying this I have to say that even though I have loudspeaker designs in the world market today, electrostatics offer the 'purest' version of the 'output equals input' version of music.
Thank you Larry
Actually, i have been looking alot at Sound labs to
The only thing is that i have not been able to listen to them.
Guess this will be a long journey.
Consider Avalon as another natural progression from Thiel.
Avalon uses kevlar woofers for their lower frequencies, ceramic for mids, and ceramic or diamonds for uppers.
I'm not certain about your amplifiers power with any of these speakers, including the ones you own. Depends on your room size and musical preferences.
I like Thiel and in fact I have the CS 2.4 but I suggest Tidal if you want more "musical" speakers , further them are a better load for your XA30.5.
Don't forget Thiels require lotsa current from amp.
Thanks for all respons
The amp have no problem with the 3.7
But when i tried it with 2.4 it didn't work at all
It does a fantastic job with my speakers.
I don't have that big room.
The fact that no Tidal owners have post a comment about your question shows that none of them considers Thiel a competitive product to a Tidal. They belong in a totally different class.
Regarding the comments that Tidal is more musical, I must say that the Tidal Piano Cera is an absolute monitor speaker with no character of its own....
>The fact that no Tidal owners have post a comment about your question shows that none of them considers Thiel a competitive product to a Tidal.<
That is your opinion. It is a fact that no Tidal owner has commented, but the reason behind this is purely speculation on your part.
of course it is speculation but since I am buying the Piano Cera soon I can describe my feelings regarding the comparison between a Tidal and a Thiel speaker....
To my hears there is nothing that compares even to the "small" Tidal Amea.
The Piano Cera provides two benefits over the Amea: (1) a more robust cabinet, and (2) better isolation of the crossover components. Additionally, the Cera has bass tuning and tweeter adjustability features. But yes Mike, I agree that for a stand mounted monitor there is nothing quite like the Amea.
Thanks for all coments, can Anyone tell me about the bass performance
of the piano cera?, My room is 3.6 x 6 meters and 2.5m ceiling
I really like the bass fr.o.m. The contrivas, so My question is, how far
Behind is the piano?
The bass performance of my Thiel 3.7 is superb in my room
I hope the piano performs just as good
Zood the bass of the Piano Cera is very just excellent, cotrnolled and deep. For bif rooms (up to 40m2) it has a +3db setting on low bass so you shouldnt have any problem at all!
It's gettin closer, Will sell My Thiel before christmas
How does the Revel ultima salon2 stand compared to the
Thiel and Tidal?
How does the Revel ultima salon2 stand compared to the
Thiel and Tidal?
--> I would be interested to hear about such comparison as well. Thanks.
Geopolitis states..."The fact that no Tidal owners have post a comment about your question shows that none of them considers Thiel a competitive product to a Tidal. They belong in a totally different class."
While this could be true, it should also be pointed out that the Tidal lists for between, $28,800.00 and $36,700.00
which is at least one multiple of the cost of THIEL.
I always find it amusing when folks do this..."The THIEL'S are good, but the Vandersteen 7's are better." (Example). Without then mentioning that the Vandersteens, while a wonderful product, cost @$40K.
The real question, unless Zood has an unlimited budget, 'What costs the same and performs better.' NOT, what costs at least twice as much and 'may' perform better.
One other troubling comment. "More musical"...we need more information on that assessment--in what way? Some of us think, colorations when we think of 'musical', that being a euphamism for 'meaty bass', tipped up midrange, rolled off highs.
I would think the Tidal is a lovely product---and for $30+K it should be. My question, how does it compare to the like priced Sound Labs, my first reccommendation?
Plus, I'm bothered by the Manufacturers web site information. Some of it is just, plain silly. Example:
Regarding Frequency Response they say simply F3=32Hz
I'm the first to say, and have that the imprecise technique of putting a 1K tone with 2.83V, then measuring the output at one meter from the face of the speaker is 'static' and not revelatory of the actual dynamics that can/will be expressed by music...however, to state...
"efficiency: since several unrealistic numbers of competitors we don't want to confuse clients by comparing non-saying numbers on paper. Therefore it is: "Good efficiency, easy to drive also with tube amps / SET'S".
If this is an attempt at humor, it's not funny, AND it's not very telling.
There are MUCH better ways to indicate efficiency. I expect they're going for reverse 'snob/audiophile appeal', and I'm not appreciating their approach.
They MAY make a great product, and it certainly IS LOVELY to look at, but they should really work on their presentation for the 'science' of their product.
Look at the Sound Labs Zood.
The Tidal Piano Cera now retails between $24K and $28K depending on the finish according to their US dealer (The Voice That Is). Still expensive, but quite a bit less than stated. Larry, I agree with some of your criticisms, but get the facts right! I think the Piano Cera represents the best value in the Tidal line and is very price competetive. The base piano black finish is exceptional and I can't imagine paying the upcharge for the premium finish. I certainly love mine!
The 'facts' as you state them, were taken from their website. The pricing, unless it's changed since the date of my post should be correct.
Regardless, of YOUR error in correcting me, I stand by my comment. A speaker that sells for about $14K, should not be critiqued against one that lists for $28K, UNLESS the criterion is absolute...and can then be weighted against the budget of the buyer.
Generally, not always, items that cost more, perform better in their category...(very generally), with personal preferences being the deciding factor. In this case, assuming that the Tidals are as good as everyone says, yet are compared directly with an item costing about half, the next question I would ask is, "How do the Tidal speakers compare to those costing $48K to $56K"--a comparison/quetion as valid as THIEL vs Tidal, to be sure.
In my opinion the strength if the Tidal is their musical accuracy thus they get out of the way and then there is only you and the music! Money doesn't buy that no matter how much a company decides to Market their speaker! Bottom line is that even the "small" piano Cera is just a better speaker than almost anything out there! IMHO
Larry, my sole criticism of your post was in the incorrect retail pricing that you provided. US pricing is a very fluid variable when it comes to foreign made products coupled with a change in distributorship which occurred last summer (well before your post with pricing information). Sound quality is something we should all debate, but I would not descibe it as a fact like retail price.
To be honest those two speakers cost the same in Europe....
So which retail price are we talking about , the US or the European one?
Again, even if they cost the same in Europe they belong in a totally different class....
Again, even if they cost the same in Europe they belong in a totally different class<<
You forgot to add "in my opinion".
Speakers, like all components, are a subjective call. There is no hard and fast rule I've seen annointing Tidal or any other speaker as the "best" or better than another.
Lots of cheerleading doesn't carry any weight either.
We all have an agenda, hell I started a company that I brag on, (at least brag shamelessly about the designs, lol) but this one does have a special feel. I'm glad you pointed it out.
The central point of this thread I thought, was, 'to compare them.' This, to me an unfair comparison, as I pointed out, (floating prices notwithstanding) as the Piano cost about twice the price of the THIEL. My statement was something like this: If the THIEL can be compared to the Piano, why not compare the Piano to a speaker costing $52 or more--unless it's emperical and not, 'value per dollar', the comparison falls flat. No one (seriously) compares a Corvette to a Ferrari given their price differential.
Now, that said, I'm not an absolutist--a piano JUST sounds like a piano--if the 3.7 gets it close enough to fool most people is that good enough? No! Audio doesn't work that way--within a good rendering the nuance and delicacy that makes our skin 'bump' is what some of us pay $K's of dollars, every day, year.
I too, think that cheerleading in either direction is suspect.
Do I have an agenda with THIEL...yes and no, having worked for them, and having the greatest respect for Kathy Gornik and Jim/Tom Thiel makes my opinion suspect--but I try to carefully weigh that respect with audio 'reality', (see price/performance curve).
The slight difference between the prices I gave, which were posted the day I made the comments, and what Linkster corrected the to, are inconsequential--we are still talking a full multiple. How do we compare that?
To further confuse things--and even reverse fields!Imported products make for strange comparisons. Import duties, additional shipping, distributor charges make pricing of products and therefore, 'value' a very elastic debate. IMHO a speaker that costs twice the price of it's 'home country price' when exported/imported really muck things up. Perspectives, and validly so, become very difficult.
I suppose, the only REAL way to compare the THIEL and Tidal would be to look at them from a 'home/home' price. So if the THIEL costs $14 in the US, and Tidal costs about $14 in its domestic, the comparison IS valid.
I do know this, they ARE ONE BEAUTIFUL SPEAKER.
This is wordy AND confusing, but, I think worth saying.
You need to be consistent with the meds larry and not allow the cycle to lapse.
This thread is about worthless. At this point there are 23 post and not a single comparison. Blanket a statement that one item is way better than another with no context or detail is worthless.
Larry is one of the only ones in this thread still talking logic. I have not heard the Tidal, I am sure they are nice but not groundbreaking. Zood if you like your Thiel that well I would make sure I audition your next set of speakers before you sell the 3.7s.
I would really like to see a professional review of the Tidal speakers with measurements (NRC preferred), waterfall plots and the whole bit. They ask for a lot of coin without disclosing the engineering involved. But maybe I am just a harder sell than most. I need proven facts as well as my personal listening.
Also am I correct in my thinking that Tidal sources (design or parts) from Thiel? I believe I read a comment a long time about about Tidal and Thiel working on drivers together, please correct me if I am wrong.
I believe that Tidal sources its drivers from Thiel & Partners AKA Accuton...
Wait a couple years and they'll be close to half $$ like everything else.
I am replacing my current speakers with Piano Ceras. They will be here next week. Will share my thoughts when they arrive.
Awesome! They may be your last speakers! You won't regret it that's for sure!
Please share your impressions when they arrive!
It seems there are increasing # of manufacturers nowdays using the dimond tweeter & accuton mid/bass drivers. Isophon, Marten, white Lumen to name to few. I guess for Zood, it comes down to what he is looking for in an upgrade. If you want smooth infinite extension on the top, detailed, trasparent mid, don't care much about low bottom extension, then yes, I am sure Tidal and any of those using diamond/accuton combo should be a good choice. However for the money you spend, not sure how far an upgrade you will get from Thiel. You are still stuck with bottm octave missing, your mid although very accurate,transparent, and detailed, lacking in body/weight. For the money you are about to spend, you should carefully audition # of choices you have out there.
I had Thiel 3.7 up until about two weeks ago and I was very happy with it for a while..better than any other Thiels in the past in my personal view. then I upgraded to KEF 207.2..in terms of price, I guess the proper word is exchanged..because the price difference isn't that big. KEF 207 2 deliver exactly what I wanted more from Thiel. clean bass extension below 25hz that seamlessly integrate up into mid and high area and the mid that produced more body and heft to deliver you more close to "you are there" sound. For a little money I spent, I felt it was remarkable upgrade choice..
Zood, you asked about Salon 2 in your post somewhere here, so I think you should try that as well. Salon 2 and KEF 207 2 most definitely given their price point. Salon 2 is truly remarkable as well, the big difference from KEF being the mid. less body or "bloom" as some may say..The salon 2 also extend down far so you got yourselves a true full range speaker.. I am sure there are more choices but these are two I would suggest personally from what I know..
Good luck and what a timing to purchase a new set of speakers given Christmas is right around the corner !!
Pkoh, could you please elaborate a little of your experiences with Tidal? Was it the Piano in particular or right across their range, which I assume you must have auditioned, and thought lacked bass /body /weight to their presentations? Also, what were the associated equipments used? Thanks for sharing.
Hi Bvdiman, no I didn't listen to the whole range..I wish I could with all the raves on Tidal elsewhere, but where I live, dealers no longer seems to carry them. don't know why...I listen to their tricera or whatever model that had the accuton tweet/mid and seas bass driver. I would think this is upper model compared to the Piano given the spec.
Anyway, that audition was few years ago, with the Peak Consultant Emperor using Lamm gears. Like I said in my previous post, I personally felt the high and mid on Tidal was something to die for..super extended, clean, silky smoth, "right but natural" I guess would be the words to decribe..However, I could not escape from the feeling that it's bass just felt little short in terms of slam and power. compared to the PC Emperor.. Tidal had the clean, well defined bass, don't get me wrong..but just didn't have that powerful slam I was look for especially given it's price point. bottom line, little thin from lower/lowest bass..
Anyway, to my points, wonderful speakers, but if you had Thiel 3.7 and looking for something to make up what is lacking..and Thiel lacks very little, then, I am merely suggesting that you also consider some that trouts different routes to see what it is that you are actually wanting more from your current speakers.
Sorry for the repeating posts. System must've been playing up with the first reported as error, not sent.
Just had my Contriva for two weeks now. Besides Pkoh's input, I did hear as well from few other sources to be wary of the slightly lean lower mid and bass of Tidals. I had my reservations then having bought/ordering them unheard, but of which after hearing them myself now, I just don't quite get what all the complain was about. With any of the two amps I tried them with, I must say that their bass is full, deep reaching, rich, with just a nice touch of natural warmth, yet, tightly controlled, almost piston like in agility and heft easily on par with my brother's Sasha (notoriously known for their weight and heft in that dept.). So I guess it's more likely to be other issues in the chain if you don't get them to perform as such.
I would like to hear your thoughts on how they sound compared to your out-going magicos. I can't remember if you had the Mini or V3 last.
Sorry to get the thread off topic but it is old anyway.
So as not to steer off topic, I've written some brief initial impression in my system thread. Only around 80hrs now on the Contriva, so still quite a fair bit away before settling.
My previous speakers (as of last 30yrs) were ML CLS > ML CLSII > Energy Connoisseur REf.22 > MG3A > Apogee Diva > Tannoy Westminster Royal > Pro Ac Response4 > ML Prodigy > MG20.1 > Stradivari > Magico Mini2 > V3. On average, lived around 2-3yrs with each.
But no, I'm not going to do head on comparisons between them (current with previous Magicos) as this would not seem fair considering price differences alone. Except to say that for the last four years I had the two Magicos, they've brought me much pleasure as well. When everything is set-up/tune-in just right, I must say they too are superb speakers in their price range for the right application.
Maybe fairer to have them compared to the Tidal Piano range, and that, maybe better left to those who are more familiar with both those lines.
I read through it, thanks for sharing.
Congratulations on the limited addition.
Zood: I have heard Tidal contriva diacera as well as the Amea 2-way. (both fabulous speakers). I have not heard Thiels, (their are many great reviews of the 3.7's) So....may I suggest some room tuning devices to get those Thiel's sounding their best. Recently I auditioned the Synergistic ART bass stations in my audio room. These devices are incredible at taming bass nodes, more accurately tuning the bass, providing more ambient spatial cues, a deeper more holographic soundstage and on...and on... They are the real deal and should be auditioned. In the future I will audition more ART devices but just try (2) of the bass stations. You may find the same results as I did. I am not a dealer but call me if you want at 610-905-7297 for more info.
Zood, I don't think XA30.5 is sufficient for Contriva Diacera, I own SE version.