There's a lot more bass in a 6.5" driver than most of you think


One topic of discussion I often see new audiophiles touch on is whether to get larger speakers for more bass.

I usually suggest they tune the room first, then re-evaluate. This is based on listening and measurement in several apartments I’ve lived in. Bigger speakers can be nothing but trouble if the room is not ready.


In particular, I often claim that the right room treatment can make smaller speakers behave much larger. So, to back up my claims I’d like to submit to you my recent blog post here:

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-snr-1-room-response-and-roon.html


Look at the bass response from those little drivers! :)


I admit for a lot of listeners these speakers won’t seem as punchy as you might like, but for an apartment dweller who does 50/50 music and theater they are ideal for me. If you’d like punchy, talk to Fritz who aligns his drivers with more oomf in the bass.


erik_squires

Showing 11 responses by asvjerry

@three_easy... Actually, one Can 'do art' with 1 color...but that's a different discussion for another forum.  And really a network time waster that we shan't launch into Here....*G* ;)

@erik_squires ....Thank You. *S*  I've been concentrating my foray into a smaller Walsh DIY driver based on 6" drivers.  The properly sized (proportional) and shaped cone works out to the surface area of approx. a 9" dia. cone of 'conventional' design....and it works. *S*

Bass? Yes....Lower frequencies?  Not really....without opting to the current 'Ohm' configurations, MHO is I'm 'asking' a larger cone to be a 'one-trick pony' and do Everything.  Flawlessly.

Not likely.  And that's why I hand off those fq. to....Yes, a 6" sub. *G*

More accurate, controlled response.  It's the only thing that can 'keep pace' with my Heil AMT's.

I have noticed that if one desires 'room-filling' bass lines in a larger space, you'll likely opt for a larger sub driver.  You need to induce more 'air motion' into said space to create the same effect.  'Big' for 'big'....

It's all a 'work in progress', but I'm emboldened by the response of a listener when exposed to my Walsh 2-ways vs. a pair of small Maggie's...

"Which do you prefer?"

"Yours....sound more 'real'."

I Will carry on....;)
...the interesting thing about line arrays is when all those small speakers combine for bass lines.  If one doesn't get too enthusiastic with the drive levels, they respond quite nicely...

I remember my 901's of eons past....not all that accurate, but plenty of it...;)
@erik_squires ....it didn’t register in my small, swelled ’n itchy brain, But....*G*

I Finally noticed that not only that the SNR-1’s have a ribbon tweeter....but "...using a pair of parametric notch filters...." was noted by yers unruly.

Not surprised that those speakers can be ’tweaked’ to ’go flat’.

My octave ’stand alone’ eq’s can’t do that....but the xover and the ’puter’s eq program can...;)  Both have parametric functions....

One of these days I ought to try to get an acceptable noise out of a Coke can....*L* I have enough eq at hand and on demand, I could probably excite a pineapple....*smirk*

(Sounds like one ’ell of a ’bar bet’.....)
Bass IS or, CAN BE directional.
*Hmmm* It’s very ’circumstantial’....and driven by frequency and the space it’s in.

"Now that I’ve got your attention..." *G*....

’Directional bass’, or the perception of it being such, is ’normal’ (IMHO....oh, forget that...IM not so HO....) for those used to ’direct radiating speakers; who then add ’sub(s)’ for ’punch’ and/or to fill in what they know should ’be there’ in ’that music’ (genre driven...bass guitar, drums...those sort of instruments).

As an ’omni’ sort of guy, who lives with ’sound in the round’ (so to shriek)....who also has dipoles (AMT drivers and a pair of Maggie’s) along with ’direct radiators’ for ’reference’s sake’....

...and a single sub. Small...6ish", ported, self-powered.

Frequency, as it lowers, undergoes a ’phase change’ of sorts. It becomes less directional and begins to ’omni’.

It’s beginning to respond to the physics of sound waves, and how they behave. Let me illustrate with a analogy, based in the physical properties of air...which acts like water.

They are the same thing, basically. You’re just able to walk around in one.*G* You ARE a ’fish out of water’....in the midst of a ’phase change’.

Think of sound’s frequency in terms of ’speed’; higher=faster, low=slower.
Speed zips past one in a given direction, bounces off of anything in it’s path, and dissipates. Slower, it tends to create vortices, swirling like the air over a stalling wing, ’losing it’s way’....and hangs around, due to the length of the waveform.

Now...consider this...

Listening to your equipment...(and I could care less what it is, how sophisticated it is or isn’t)....you are IN an enclosure. Being driven by units within their enclosure....

Which does indicate that ’the room’, in many ways, is just as (if not more) important to what you hear and how it’s perceived.

’Upper bass’ can seem ’more directional’ than ’Lower bass’ because, due to waveform, it is... and is effected by the space it’s in.

An example:
Ever notice, when approaching a venue in which the band is already playing...that you notice the low bass notes before anything else?

You go from ’omni’ to ’direct’. (Then you buy a drink, and stop paying attention. *L* I do it, too....) ;)

(I Know this is going to start ’something’, but I just had to go there...*L*)
....my 'semi-consciousness' dredges up the odd 'musical interlude' from time to time.....
Last night, This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3W1-Pco9Uk

I have no control over this....*G*....but I'm happy it did. ;)

Substitute 'Vivianne' for 'Marion' and Bob will appreciate the return to 'accuracy'....;)

Best, and better, J
...and best back to you, Eric. *S*  And, yes, I noted the cut vs. boost detail...it's all in how the parametric is set.  This I'm confident you know of this....;)

I've got an old SAE '2 band' (high & low) 2 channel set up in my shop area to tame my 'low rent' arrays into a 'reasonable' affair.  Beats trying to massage the receiver's tone controls to be acceptable. *G*

I will concur...an AMT is not a true ribbon, but they are less finicky and durable.  That, and they can go down to 500 hz before loosing 'credence' at least to my ears...

I don't discount your traps, oh no.  My current space makes such impractical; this Will change in the short future.  At that juncture, I shall respond in my typical 'knee of jerk' Xsperimental fashion. *G*

I have 'something' I want to try....;)   My take on 'nothing ventured, blame yourself' department. 

That, and a spouse that absolutely refuses to live in a 'studio'...so I have to be...'artful' about it...;)   Blobs (or even GIK panels) 'don't fly' well about her...(she's quite aware of 'hi-fi devious tricks' from living with me for wayyy long time...).

Subtlety in the Long Game.  And it works best if not permanent, so one can beat a hasty retreat....;)  We both (she & I) have our reasons.....
Personally, I'd like to thank pirad and erik for their exchanges; it's one of the primary reasons I return here...^5's guys.

If you two hadn't disagreed, we'd all be the poorer and less informed of the nuances of the subject.  Which, like most audiophilia, is complex in itself....and is then plopped into our various and varied spaces....

....followed by head scratching and 'wt...' observations....;)

For the record, bass traps in my 'space' would be a physical improbability, as would most any other enhancements.  A long story that you can be spared.   Suffice to say, 'room averaging' from multiple locations to multiple memories.  This gets 'averaged' down to 3 'main' selections; an 'average entire', suitable for 'local Muzac", 'sweet spot', and 'center/all'....
...and then there's the different sets of speakers involved....
Yes, I keep notes....;p  My memory only has so many slots...*L*

Thanks again for your patience with each other...

Regards, J


*L*  You got the gist of that NEC disclaimer, Eric.
Between the lines is:
"If you guess wrong, it's your butt in the pliers, bunkie." ;)

Anytime I 'play' with AC, I 'go down' a wire gauge (10 for 12, that sort of thing)...do the same with speakers. *G*  Can't hurt...

And that's what I surmised from your rally with @pirad.... one can apply whatever means one cares to, but will have to deal with that choice in an apropos way.  And accept the consequences of that/those choice(s).

Basically, Simple.  It's the devil in the details as usual....

In the near future, I'm looking forward to having a more 'reasonable, normal' space to set up 'fresh, clean slate'. *S*  It's been more than a little while since I've had that opportunity...

BTW....I wasn't aware that Linkwitz had passed away. :(  There was a time in my life I lived within a mile of him, and wasn't aware of it....

Ignorance is bliss...until it isn't. 

Better ;),
J
I had a brief email exchange with him about my Walsh DIY's a couple of years ago.
He generously applauded my attempt, and wished me good luck.

It's been suggested to me that I ought to use an L/R 2nd order passive with my 2-way versions....

I think I might do just that....Just Because. *S*

...but I'll include a bi-amp option anyway...being the 'active guy I is...;)

RIP, Sir...and thanks for all of us.

;), Eric..
Happy Saturday to all...*S*

Hey, Eric...this appeared in the 'cunning trick' forum...

https://audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2689

...and I thought you'd enjoy it.  The speakers shown over a major mix board may be just a 'trade trick' (sic), but it definitely fits within your proposition. ;)

Cheerfulls, J