The Truth about Modern Class D

Boooomm!! thar she blows, your https://youtu.be/YTY26k0CA0I?t=5

You named this thread "The Truth about Modern Class D"
like you had some secrete insight to something special about Class-D, that no-one else knows, there isn’t sunshine.

And I didn't revitalize ****, it was a 2 poster  markw1951

intrawert6 posts02-24-2020 6:10pmWhat’s up with GaNfet? Let’s discuss new items. I think this year will be a breakthrough, thanks to new technologies.

Gan fets are definitely the future for Class-D or any class, if their used to their fullest like Technics did with the SE-R1 higher switching speed (1.5mhz) and higher output filter to suit, so there none of the problems it has now. But the SE-R1 is >$20k
The ones around now using GaN’s are either dinky little office type class-D’s or expensive ones that haven’t utilized the technology as far as Technics did.
New ones from  https://www.classdaudio.com maybe will be good for the money, but I don't believe they went as far as Technics did with it. this is the GaN site  https://www.premium-audio.com/    

Cheers George

Can't see the forest for the trees sunshine, how do you get through life?  

Still can’t see the forest for the trees yourself, parroting BS spoon fed to you by others, probably that have commercially involved instead of looking for yourself.

Put them on the bench yourself and see, if you even have or know how to use bench test gear, which I strongly doubt very much the way you carry on.

Over and out

You've lost it sunshine, you had more cred when you were bagging Pass Labs.

Wow what a rant, clean up aisle 4
Your going to blow your pooffoo valve sunshine, better keep in in check, and yes you are known as an Pass Labs basher

Yeah right!

Anyone is welcome to come hear, including GFi

You just don't get it tweak, this is why many find the upper mids/highs objectionable on Class-D, why would I want to listen to an amp with this much phase shift already 25 degrees! at 2khz, and it get's progressively worse all the way up to 70 degrees!!! at 10khz.
https://ibb.co/VYHFHsQ

Get a life

Tweak you started it again, I told you, every time you bring me in by name, I’ll put up the phase shot of the Icepower amp.

Golf, that **** doesn’t worry me, I just hope the mods see it and treat it for what it’s worth. He’s a Nelson Pass basher, we all know it.
Cheers George

I will say I was much less disappointed by the Vivace amps than I was the Kii speakers.

The Kii are like listening to music with surgical ears, sucks the life out of the music, they have no soul, or musicality or harmonic structure to whatever is being played.

Like anything that's been though a DSP room/xover/eq  with mutli amp class-D active speakers same deal.

Cheers George

The Truth about Modern Class D

This is the heading to this thread, kinda makes you think, does he believe his the new Messiah to lead the linear amp lovers out of Hades and into the garden of Eden?
  
And it's a common theme to every Class-D thread he starts up, to me it's like he's looking for reco or even consolation maybe. 

Yet he doesn't seem to want to embrace the new GaN Class-D Technology which will rid the sins of the old Class-D technology.
 

"It WILL NEVER be as good as tubes,class a or good a/b NEVER!!!"
As a tube amplifier manufacturer I have to disagree with this comment.

You have to it’s plain as day, because of what you have coming, if you didn’t it would be a waste of development and money, as tube sales especially otl’s and pre’s are down and you need to diversify.

Class D is in the middle of the curve

It's still like trying to make a sport car out of a cement truck.

It has yet to reach true hiend, with it’s achilles heel’s it has. GaN Class-D technology points to be able to get rid of them and give it a real shot at the hiend audio, one should have invested in it, over the old technology, as it will become the dinosaur, just as linear amps will one day.

At $699 it’s got what it takes under the hood, Mike Moffat is no fool, he made Theta digital what it is when it was on top. What he’s done with Schiit is hiend at lowend pricing, using volume to make his profit.
He’s giving Italian V12 quadcam horsepower but with US V8 supercharged iron and no glitz and glamour.
$50 more for front switch, a $100 for a smarter chassis, $50 for a more expensive remote, all of a sudden your over a grand and it sounds the same.

Cheers George

1extreme

Excellent way of utilizing them as that’s where they shine at the moment, with their output impedance down in the milliohms region (damping factor massive), so long as the speakers load impedance doesn’t get real nasty, as most that I’ve seen don’t seem to like <3ohms too much.

Cheers George

weak1657 posts09-07-2018 11:57pmGeorge I clicked on the GaN link you provided, Alas, it does not account for XLR

This one has balanced.
http://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/guides/EPC9106_qsg.pdf

Cheers George

brianlucey

+1 well said.

Musically speaking ... well I am very happy were I landed with a 625s2...

Yours and the 725 mono seem to be the last linear Class-A/B amps JR make, and seem to be a worthy choice.

Cheers George

Which approach is best: modding a Prius to be almost as quick as a Lambo (with better MPG), and charging Lambo prices, or just starting from the ground up with a real gas-guzzling Lambo?

Personally, I'd take the latter though I can understand the argument for the former.

+1 That's about it alright, for now anyway. I think we maybe in for a shock in the not too distant future, re all the stuff EPC is doing with the GaN.

 Then all the Class-D's being raved about at present, will become as popular as solid state was when they were made with Germanium transistors when Silicon transistors hit the market.
You couldn't sell them to save yourself, they made excellent door stops and that was it. 

Cheers George

These guys are leading, advancing future of Class-D with their GaN semiconductors.

There’s much to choose from on the EPC GaN Class-D website.

After having a good look at everything this one is the pick I think, it’s got everything, programmable DSP and the kitchen sink. digital inputs, analog inputs, usb. Just hook up +-32v and away you go.

8ohm 200w supposed to double into 4ohm 400w?? that’s like saying perpetual motion is real, https://youtu.be/4b8ZsFszE8I?t=2 be nice to see what it can do into 2ohms.

http://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/thirdparty/EAS_eGaN_2.0-Channel_EvalKit-010116.pdf

Cheers George

We have George repeating over and over and over and over and over and over.....he he..... about phase shift due to filter effects....trouble is, he is guessing about its sonic effect. He knows nothing because he has not heard anything......he is just talking.

Ok, were stooping down to that level.

Many of us know your comments are biased and maybe in it for the monitory gain, and you’ll say anything because of this, and your protection of it.
http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_1200_amplifier.html
I have no financial interest in Class-D at all, just what I hear and others report..

There are 3 ready made diy EVAL BOARD modules from EPC using the GAN transistors. Just add an smp, bung them in a box and away you go.
http://epc-co.com/epc/Applications/ClassDAudio.aspx

One the lowest power one available through Mouser for $1,388 usd each.
https://www.digikey.com/products/en?%20WT.z_cid=sp_917_0110_buynow&site=us&lang=en&mpart...

And the other higher power modules available "maybe"? through Elegant Audio Solutions of Austin Texas.
http://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/thirdparty/EAS_eGaN_2.0-Channel_EvalKit-010116.pdf

http://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/documents/thirdparty/eGaNAMP2016_Consumer-123115.pdf

Cheers George.

Here is an interesting read for those at odds with what’s being presented here. Not just with the filtering of the switching noise, which I primarily "bat" on about, but also what is a secondary problem of Class-D advantages in the "dead time".
From the makers of the GAN transistors that Technics use in the SE-R1.

" EPC’s enhancement-mode GaN (eGaN®) transistors switch up to ten times faster than silicon MOSFETs, with ‘zero’ stored charge. The increased switching speed of eGaN FETs allows amplifier designers to increase PWM switching frequencies, reduce dead-time, and drastically reduce feedback; producing a sound quality previously limited to large, complex, heavy Class-A amplifier systems."

Also there could be a module for sale using these eGan transistors from Austin Texas.
Elegant Audio Solutions of Austin, Texas, has produced an amplifier capable of a continuous power output of 200 Watts into an 8Ω, or 400 Watts into a 4Ω speaker load, with THD+N as low as 0.005% and very low feedback. Moreover, this is done without the need for a heat sink and eGaN-based amplifier can plug directly into the standard amplifier implementation of many existing systems.
https://epc-co.com/epc/Portals/0/epc/blogs/elegant-audio-solutions-eGaNAMP2016.png


Cheers George

Prove either is audible and unpleasant first. Then you might get me to care about either.

Just like climate change?
https://cdn1.vectorstock.com/i/1000x1000/05/10/ostrich-head-in-sand-vector-2090510.jpg

Cheers George

But you are reverting instead to your single track paper-bound comments

Only because of those "looking for confirmation" to what they think that Class-D is finally Hiend.
It hasn't changed that much since it's inception, many you will find are buying Chinese modules some modded via Pascal EU, just more and more trying to make "big bucks" out of what is essentially very cheap to make, if you take away the "glitzy chassis" they have.

NP: Personally I think it’s a miracle that they work at all. I am not tempted to go in that direction.    



Cheers George 

The quote from Mr. Hammer is false. Here’s why:

As @merrilaudio states, the problem is dead time.

And the rest seems like an ad.


It’s not false as Ralph would have you believe.

It is "also" a problem, but isn’t the "major problem", and the cause is of what many dislike what they hear in the upper/mids and highs which is a product of the switching noise and it’s associated filter.

It is believed that the dead time will also be vastly improved with a 3mHz switching speeds.

This analogy from Nelson Pass will help:
"Imagine that the two transistors are runners in a relay race and that the signal is the baton they carry. In a real relay race, the runner receiving the baton begins running before the hand-off, which is made with the runners at speed. The runners who hand over the baton at a dead stop will operate at a severe disadvantage".

(if that runner can stop on a dime from full speed, then take off like a nitro drag car, you have higher switching speed)

And an interview with the great man (Nelson Pass) just a couple of months ago;

JS:There has been an explosion in high-end Class D amps in recent years. Some companies now market some fairly sophisticated – and expensive  – Class D models. Pass currently manufactures Class A and AB lines only. What are your thoughts on Class D?

NP: Personally I think it’s a miracle that they work at all, but then I think that about my phone, too. I have great respect for people who can make Class D amplifiers sound pretty good, and for delivering low cost, high power, and efficiency. They have earned their place in the industry.

That said, I am not tempted to go in that direction.

Cheers George

You might dislike the whole lot instead *Grins!*

Why? ... "BECAUSE!"

G.

It's simple G
As it stands now the switching frequency noise output filter, has phase shift effects that reach right down to 5khz, that doubled for the worse at 10khz and doubled worse again 20khz. That's what many listeners find objectionable, in the upper mids and highs.

If the switching frequency is moved much higher from the present 400-600khz to 2 or 3mHz, then the filter can be moved up accordingly. So it has no phase shift effects down to 5khz, but only then at over 20khz instead where it really doesn't matter.
And the dead time will magically improve as well, it's a win win, for higher switching speeds that's why Technics with the SE-R1 persevered to get it, at a cost rrp $30k aud. 

Cheers George

I just wanted to make sure you read the data sheet to see that these are indeed GAN devices.

I saw all these when the SE-R1 was released, a year ago and posted them up here. Thanks anyway.

ricevs
you might think they are mosfets.

Please point to where it says I think they are Mosfets??

I said the GAN device was invented by the same guys (directors of EPC) that invented the Power Mosfet!!! All those years ago.

They (EPC) are into inventing/developing and selling their patented inventions to the major semiconductor manufactures, just like they did with the Power Mosfet.
Also the ones used in the Techincs SE-R1 may not even be the same ones that are on Mouser that are non existent not in stock anyway.

BTW "G" here is the difference in switching noise ringing on a square wave between Mosfet and GAN, https://www.technics.com/content/products/r1/images/se-r1-img2-2-uk.png
there is still a little ringing but it’s far better than what all the other Class-D’s do. https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/uploads/monthly_2016_12/583f6e91157f6_Class-Dsquarewaveringing..jpg...

And this is at 1.5gHz at 3gHz it could be all but gone, without effecting down to 5kHz into the audio band.

ricevs
  they are not mosfets as Mouser has no category for them at present.....

You need to read and comprehend better. Go back and read my post again.

I never said they were, your going off half cocked again.  
What I said, the inventors of these new GAN devices (EPC. Group)
YET TO BE TAKEN UP BY THE MAJOR MANUFACTURERS (just in-case you have bad eyes).
Were also responsible for inventing the power Mosfet years ago.
" Alex Lidow, Ph.D. CEO and Co-founder

Alex joined International Rectifier (NYSE:IRF) as an R&D engineer and is the co-inventor of the HEXFET power MOSFET, a power transistor that displaced the bipolar transistor and launched modern power conversion."

ieales
 Stating that 1.5GHz will solve all the problems is as silly as saying a 10MHz Class AB bandwidth has to sound better than 100KHz.

Not "all" but the major one, that point to listeners having issues with the upper/mids and highs.

Cheers George

guidocorona3,975 posts09-04-2018 8:50am

You might have a point George.... I just did a quick Google search and came up with this article....

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-path-high-performance-transistors.html

If indeed Gallium Nitrite transistors may be applied to push into the Ghz switching frequencies for 5G transmitters, they will need to be eventually supplied by mainstream/major fabs... Perhaps we will see more high speed GaN transistors before long.

Thank you for digging this up G, maybe now the doubters will "back off"

It’s frustrating when posters like last one I had to address, skip read something get it all ****** up, before their mouths spew forth.

BTW, I did not know that Soulution is already using GaN technology.

That’s is interesting they have applied it to linear amplifiers, maybe used in their power supplies for full rail regulation? The only power amp I knew of that did that was the old Naim 250, nice sounding but didn't like Quad 57's, it oscillated and blew up, in the first second of turn on. 

Cheers George

guidocorona
I remember no more than one year ago you advocating that the day of class D would come once designers adopted Gallium Nitrite transistors switching at 1.5Mhz....

1graber2
E.g., “even”George has said he finds Class D acceptable at the 1.5 MHz switching speed. How much are those SE-1s?

What I said was G, they can’t yet because the mainstream manufacturers (Motorola, Hitachi, Fairchild STMicroelectronics Texas Instruments ect ect) haven’t started manufacturing them yet for maybe $2 each, because GAN is invented and made by a small (relative to the above) development company (EPC-Co) , they on sell the licence to major manufacturers to make them.
(EPC-Co) also invented the power Mosfet in the 60’s which the major manufacturers use under licence from them to make. Yes Technics has the GAN probably direct from EPC in limited supply, and you can bet they’re not $2 each, hence the $30k price tag on the SE-R1, anlong with limited tooling costs.

I’ve always stated that the 1.5gHz switching frequency used in $30k Technics SE-R1 was a massive stepping stone in the right direction, instead of the 400-600mHz used today by others. Because at 1.5gHz the low order output filter can remove "almost" all the switching noise without any effects down to around 5khz into the audio band which happens with all other Class-D’s now.

As Cyril Hammer of Soulution amps also says, we need to get even higher, he’s at 5gHz I’ve always thought 3gHz is fine, and when I see that on the way with future technology, it’s time for me to start advertising my boat anchors.

Cheer George

I mean, we can’t even get George to accept Class D even at its simplest face value! :)

I do accept it, but not in competition to hiend audio yet, they make great bass/upper bass amps so far.

And I’ve said it all along I’ll be the first to dump my stinking hot, heavy, inefficient, boat anchors. When they’ve got rid of their problem/s, that Technics with the $30k SE-R1 have semi addressed with their 1.5mHz switching speed power amp, 3 x times higher than what’s around at present, then the (switching noise) output filter can do it’s job properly without effecting the audio bands upper mids and highs that so many hear, and owners can't!.

I see threads like this "looking for the truth" started as a "reach out for confirmation" from owners who know their Class-D’s are not quite right, but can’t bring himself to go back to linear, almost like begging for forgiveness, for what they have done and everything will hopefully be fine.

Cheers George

There is no reason an active speaker cannot be an audiophile grade product. We are at the beginning of this technology. There is Dynaudio, Genelec, Kii, KEF and very few others.

I sat in the same seat as the presenter used to tune the $14k Kii system from, and listened to 2 known songs that I had with me, and I was outter there.
To my senses it was like a surgical knife dissecting the music, that’s the only way I can describe it.
The same happened at the Uno ZERO 1 XD demo.

Maybe the future, but not yet.

Cheers George

helomech608 posts09-02-2018 9:00am

Vladimir Shushurin (Lamm)
"No, it is not. And I would like to respond to the second part of this question with an allegory. Any field of human activity defines a number of requirements which, when properly implemented, guarantee a positive outcome.
For example, the basic requirement in the army and sports is an able-bodied individual. So, it would be quite natural to concentrate on searching for such an individual (especially as we know where to find him).
However, out of the blue we decide to choose a feeble-bodied person who, on top of that, is encumbered by various diseases. Having made this decision (which is a priori improper) we start justifying it to ourselves and others by citing the great state of our medicine, which is capable of curing many ailments."

helomech
Bingo

We better put up the question again to what this answer above relates to, which is:
" Is Class D competitive with linear designs in sound quality, and if not, will it ever be?"

Cheers George

because even though you don’t like Class D you are in every single discussion about it.

Sorry didn’t know it was a closed shop, and only one sided opinions were allowed!

"Why I can’t move past 30 year old arguments."

Because they still apply today, but there’s light on the horizon. Just because you can’t hear the problems, doesn’t mean others can’t. As posted here already by others to your chagrin. 

helomechStraight from the horse’s mouth:

We had better quote some noted designers as well.

Bob Carver
"I built many of them right here in my own laboratory with the thought they could and would fulfill that final promise.... I was never able to build a Class D amplifier that sounded as good as a linear one."

John Curl (Parasound, CTC, Vendetta Research, Constellation)
"Some version of hybrid Class A/D looks like the future in optimum audio design."

Cyrill Hammer (Souloution)
"if you want to have your product performing at the cutting edge it is not possible with today’s known switching technologies. In order to come close to the performance of the best linear design we would need high-current semiconductors that provide switching frequencies of several MHz or even GHz."

Lew Johnson (Conrad Johnson)
"I tend to think that Class D circuit design is an approach best relegated to producing low-cost, physically manageable multichannel amplifiers where one might accept some compromise in sound quality for the sake of squeezing five, six, or seven 100 watt channels into one moderate-sized package for a budget home-theater installation."

Vladimir Shushurin (Lamm)
"No, it is not. And I would like to respond to the second part of this question with an allegory. Any field of human activity defines a number of requirements which, when properly implemented, guarantee a positive outcome.
For example, the basic requirement in the army and sports is an able-bodied individual. So, it would be quite natural to concentrate on searching for such an individual (especially as we know where to find him).
However, out of the blue we decide to choose a feeble-bodied person who, on top of that, is encumbered by various diseases. Having made this decision (which is a priori improper) we start justifying it to ourselves and others by citing the great state of our medicine, which is capable of curing many ailments."

Fumio Ohashi (BAlabo)
"No. Class D can’t really be considered for super-high-end performance in its present stage of development, although it can be fine for mid-market products."

Nelson Pass (Threshold, Passlabs)
"Does a $10 bottle of wine compete with a $100 bottle? Of course it does, and it often wins based on price. Right at the moment Class D designers seem to be still focusing on the objectively measured performance of their amplifiers. I expect that at some point the economics of the marketplace will encourage them to pay more attention to the subjective qualities, and then they will probably play a greater role in the high end."

JÃrgen Reiss (MBL)

"I have worked a lot lately with Class D. Ninety-nine percent of Class D circuits are not competitive with linear circuits.
Most Class D sounds sterile. Its tricky to figure out what to do to compensate for that."

Jeff Rowland
"I consider Class D to be highly competitive in the present, and to offer an evolutionary pathway of audio design that may produce even more astonishing results in the future."

Thorsten Loesch

I have yet to hear a pure class D Amp I’d rate above "below average for solid state" (which is not very high performance).
In a little update of my classic "Valve Analogue Stages for DAC’s #" I wrote:
"Perhaps more crucially, so called Class D Amplifiers, which have in recent times sprouted up like mushrooms after a warm rain, continue to use the straight two or three level modulation scheme described above. And thus they still require the use of heavy handed noise shaping to attain anything like acceptable 16 Bit Audio performance.
The clock frequencies for these amplifiers are usually at 300 KHz to 1MHz in the best cases. That is 3,000 to 10,000 times lower than what is required to attain 16 Bit / 44.1 KHz performance without noise shaping and other forms of signal manipulation!
And again, one is baffled and perplexed by the rave reviews many Class D amplifiers receive, as baffled as one was about the late 90’s reviews of timeslicing dac’s. The best of breed I have auditioned were certainly not bad; however in direct comparison to the best available valve and solid state amplifiers they do not produce a very good sound. Well, at least they offer novelty and the reviewers something to write about other than another (however good sounding) 8 Watt valve amp.
Incidentally, the best sounding Class D amps tend to be really low power single chip devices (putting out little more than the 8 watt valve amps), presumably because they are faster AND because they always work near what one might call “full scaleâ€, if they would be dac’s. On second thought, they of COURSE are DA Converters and where a Class D amplifier accepts analogue input directly it is an A2D converter followed by a power D2A converter!
What an insight!?"
Mark Levinsons interleaving of multiple Class D Amplifiers is potentially a step in the right direction, but does not go far enough.
Personally I think that the best option would be something that combines a Class D Amplifier for the heavy lifting with something Class A for fine detail. Probably implemented in the style I did for AMR’s AM-77 "Jikoda$" Style. In this case both of the circuits involved can operate fully open loop.
In many ways the problems in Class D Amplifiers are analogous (but not identical to) those in Class B Amplifiers (but without an option to implement Class AB or Class A) so similar solutions apply.

Thorsten Loesch
All Class D amplifiers are essentially delta-sigma DAC’s.
If the input is not digital PWM signals (aka "DSD") but analogue audio then it is also a Delta Sigma Analogue to digital converter...
Now DSD (aka SACD) which to my ears fails to come close, never mind equal true PCM CD Replay in most aspects of sound quality, operates at 2.8MHz switching, or around 10 times as fast as common Class D Amplifiers...
Why anyone would want to listen through an A2D followed by an D2A Converter that are around 10 times worse than single speed DSD is beyond me.
But with enough hype and snazzy naming it cannot help but sell high and wide.


Cheers George

Cyrill Hammer (Souloution)
"if you want to have your product performing at the cutting edge it is not possible with today’s known switching technologies. In order to come close to the performance of the best linear design we would need high-current semiconductors that provide switching frequencies of several MHz or even GHz."

This is the one, that I believe hits the nail on the head, and why to some that hear it Class-D sound in the upper ranges hasn’t come of age yet.

Only Technics with their unobtainable $30k SE-R1 comes close with a 1.5mHz switching frequency instead of what all the other are using today 400-600kHz. But as Cyrill Hammer states it should be even higher.

Cheers George

To say class D is bright means you are not very well versed in quality class D.

This is correct as they can be either too bright (hard) or to opaque (soft) or a milder mix of both, and it nearly always comes down to how savage the output filter is that attenuates the switching frequency. As it's phase shift effects can be measure within the audio bands upper frequencies right down to 5khz, especially, the "opaque sounding one". You never hear of anyone criticizing the bass, that's because it good!

There are those that for the life of them can't hear anything wrong, good luck to them I say.

Cheers George

Whatever you say Ralph as I said, your the "Strawman", you know you were compassing the office type "dinky as I said"150w GaN Orchard type GaN amp to the Technics SE-R1, your not fooling anyone.

You and everyone knows exactly what that is, you’re just being a giant PEST! as usual Eric, you were told, now ____ ___ and bag Nelson Pass or something, that’s what your good at.

You did, because you called me out on saying this, to which I was making reference (dinky) to the Orchard Audio Bosco 150w type ones

The ones around now using GaN’s are either dinky little office type class-D’s or expensive ones that haven’t utilized the technology as far as Technics did.

To which you responded

This statement is false. The Technics amplifier is only 150 watts, which is similar power as many of its GanFET competition.

Ralph get it right your the false one with strawman mentality, you can’t have it both ways, the two 150w amps (Technics SE-R1 v Orchard Bosco) are very different, and will not be the same, and I’m sure your answers are "protection blurb" for what you have coming. Stick to tubes that's where your cred is.

atmasphere7,984 posts02-26-2020 3:39am

The ones around now using GaN’s are either dinky little office type class-D’s or expensive ones that haven’t utilized the technology as far as Technics did.

This statement is false. The Technics amplifier is only 150 watts, which is similar power as many of its GanFET competition.

asvjerry Well, until someone somewhere puts these two competing amps between a pair of quality speakers with ditto level cables....and source up to par to the task....

It remains conjecture, and opinion.

Really?? your cred if any just took a big dive too, if you think for one micro second these two 150w Class-D GaN amps could possibly sound as good as each other.

https://orchardaudio.com/bosc 0.9kg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/ce/1a/e1ce1a9c552aa57530ad2804c9067800.jpg 54kg

Maybe something you don't understand is that the size of a class D circuit board says little about its power

Ralph you've been in the sun too long mate.
I understand fully Ralph what you are saying to me, two GaN amps below the same 8ohm wattage.

You are saying this 0.9kg 150w Gan amp
https://orchardaudio.com/bosc

Will not be shamed by this Technics SE-R1 54kg 150w GaN amp
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/ce/1a/e1ce1a9c552aa57530ad2804c9067800.jpg

Sorry Ralph pull the other one it plays jingle bells🤦‍♂️

’Dinky’ in this part of the world means ’small’.

Like I said you know exactly what I mean, and yes it means the same in Au. I’m talking about dinky ones the size of cigarette packet, some that can do 120w sometimes with external wall wart smp supplies, some that are shilled on these Audiogon pages. I would bet the 54kg Technics SE-R1 would eat them alive same wattage. at 8ohm

This statement is false. The Technics amplifier is only 150 watts, which is similar power as many of its GanFET competition.

I’m not talking about wattage Ralph, and you know that very well, give up and try not to go into product protection mode, when ever GaN is mentioned.
And the $20K I mentioned for the Technics SE-R1 is around the Au $ price