Yes, 'under a given set of conditions' for example if you are dead, its hard to tell two amps apart. Is he a zombie?
The Richard Clark "all amps sounds the same" test
Okay, I know there has been tons of commentary on this issue, but I have a specific question. And it will make it clear why I'm posting this amp question in the speaker threads.
I'm curious if anyone knows if Maggie 20.1s or something equally hard to drive and equally transparent has been tested? I know planars have been used on his test, but I don't know any details.
Oh - for those who don't have any idea what I'm talking about see:
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm
and
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm
and if you google it there is almost endless commentary on it.
Okay - but I want to test the following:
Magnepan 20.1s
Pass Labs X350.5 or XA160.5
Pass Labs Pre? (Don't care as much)
EmmLabs CD Player
Then, we need a low-cost amp. Now, the trouble is, he has a reasonable request in his test, each amp has to be used within its thresholds, so no using them at 300 watts when one is rated at 30 watts. Obviously with one clipping and the other one not clipping you will hear a difference.
This also applies to a 4-ohm speaker. So, assuming someone hasn't done an extremely similar test and can just tell us the difference, the next question is what is the worst amplifier that is rated at 4 ohms? While the X350.5 is high-power, the test could be done at 85 db, so you don't need too many watts to make that work.
This would effectively answer all the "maggies need high power to by dynamic" and lots of other similar questions. Because the test is at one db level, does one amp really push more bass out of them than another?
Hey - actually wouldn't Tympani IVs be harder to drive? Maybe we should use Tympani's :).
What do people think, is this issue still alive or has someone resolved these issues? I have to think I could hear the difference and may have my wife run some singly-blind tests for me - I don't have any of the equipment above, but do have 3.6s and an Aleph 5. See how that Aleph sounds compared to some sort of $100 amp rated at 4 ohms.
Might there be a 4-ohm rated amp in a boombox or bookshelf system? I'll poke around. Sure a single op-amp chip in a bookshelf system (often what $100 system amps consist of, just a few chips) would sound worse than a Pass Labs Aleph, which Stereophile said compared to the Levinson 300 lb amps?
Oh - and the essence of my idea with this test is that perhaps the sound is 'more similar' on speakers that are easier to drive, but with 20.1s - and this is just as important - with a highly resolving ribbon speaker - the difference might become more apparent.
Oh - also, I'm not sure if he allows me to choose the music, but I have found over the years certain parts of certain passages that show the differences of components more than others. I think that would also be important - what passages are played, as on some I would believe the differences would be impossible/difficult to detect.
If I'm just repeating stuff that can be found elsewhere let me know... Just seems like we should be able to bust this test.
Showing 4 responses by atmasphere
Mrtennis is right in his bottom line, and I can add to it: even if you add EQ to make a tube amp and solid state amp 'sound the same' isn't there a tacit admission there that they don't? Huh? I'm sorry, but in this case Mr. Clark has fooled himself silly. Different amps in fact sound different. Here are the areas to look in which you will find immediately apparent, very audible differences: the differences between tube and transistor, within one camp of expertise, the difference between a class A amplifier and one that is not, and finally the difference between a zero feedback amplifier and one that uses feedback. Areas to be sensitive to as you audition these amps: high frequency content; the sense of 'brightness' (even though all the amps might have the same bandwidth), differences in soundstage presentation (currently not a measurable quantity), presentation of the attack of the various instruments, smoothness as opposed to harshness, that sort of thing. I could forecast some of the results but that might take the fun out of it for you :) Soundlab or Magnaplanar 20.1- either is fine. |
Lightminer, I read somewhere that Richard Clark refused to pay up when the conditions of his test were met. Do you know anything about that? I also understand that there remain some validity issues relating to the signal source hookup as well as the means to switch between the amps. The saying is 'garbage in garbage out'- the test will be impaired if proper attention is not paid to correct inputs and outputs. IOW, it is not possible to switch back and forth on the fly since the connections in such a scenario will be severely degraded. |
Lightminer, here is something else to consider: http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html IOW, a speaker that is designed for transistors may not work with tubes without tonal anomalies, and I for one (if doing the test) would insist on one of our amps against his transistor 'control sample'. In order to do that, its likely that the tube amp should be on a speaker designed for tubes. I don't know how you could conduct a valid test unless you had a at the very least a speaker that was equally friendly to tubes as it is to transistors. My guess is all these tests were done transistor vs transistor- I'm pretty sure I'd be hard pressed to accurately tell the difference. |