The Downside to Dedicated Lines vs. the Benefits


From an AC power grunge perspective, my main system currently seems very quiet. That is, I don’t have any ground hum issues, and I have to raise the gain fairly high and then get my ear quite close to one of the speakers before I can detect any hiss or other noise. It is truly the quietest system I’ve ever had experience with. Never the less, I do know that paying attention to AC power issues can reap other benefits, including an improved soundstage, imaging, better dynamics, etc.

I built this system from the ground up about a year ago and am now at the phase where I’m beginning to work on optimizing it. Back when I started planning it out, there was no question that I would be putting in a couple of dedicated lines. However, now that I’m at the point where I’m about to begin the project, and after a ton of reading and research, I’ve begun to have some serious reservations.

My concerns are mainly over the potential for introducing (or increasing) ground or ground-loop noise and/or hum. From what I can gather, powering interconnected components (especially non-balanced, or single ended, components) from multiple circuits, whether dedicated or not, raises the risk of this occurring.

I also understand the type of components as well as the system’s overall configuration plays a part as well. If I could summarize the details of my system and get some opinions about whether I run the risk of messing with an already good thing, I’d be very grateful.

The majority of my gear sits in a metal rack (Middle Atlantic) in an enclosure located directly behind the front wall of my listening room. XLR cables feed through the wall to a couple of mono amps that sit in the listening room near the speakers. The system currently doubles as a HT and 2ch rig and, as with most folks here, will no-doubt evolve and experience its share of equipment changes. As such, there’s a good chance I may not have a fully balanced system at any given point in time.

Right now, all of the audio gear, a cable box, an active sub, and a 60” plasma TV run off of one 20 amp circuit. There are various other wall-wart devices using the circuit as well (computer switch, rack fan, the receiver for my RF remote control, etc.) There might be a couple of incandescent lights that run on it too, but no other devices or equipment.

Everything currently runs through a couple of top-of-the line Belkin ‘Pure Power’ UPS/Surge Suppress/Conditioning units. Plans always were to repurpose these units after the dedicated lines were installed. However, considering the virtual lack of AC grunge despite all that’s plugged into them, I’m amazed at what these units are capable of.

If I do go ahead with installing the dedicated lines, I would put in a 100 amp sub-panel in the room that houses the rack. I’d need to pull about 80 feet of wire back to the main panel. (BTW, I don’t know much about the electrical trade, so if someone could offer guidance on what type of cable and gauge I should run, I’d appreciate it.) I’d then run 10/2 cryo’d romex (just because) out to three or four audiophile grade duplex outlets. Unfortunately, with where I’d be putting the sub panel, an isolation transformer wouldn’t be practical.

I would like to keep the existing branch circuit in place, and plug all the non-audio gear into it via the existing Belkin units (wall warts, cable box, TV, etc.) The front end equipment, sources, sub, and amps would go on the dedicated lines… directly at first…but eventually I’m sure I’ll end up trying one or two of the better power conditioners that are often sold here on Audiogon.

Now…from all that I’ve read, it appears that the above configuration could be prone to ground noise/hum issues. If I’ve correctly understood a publication that Middle Atlantic has out, a large part this potential comes from the fact that the metal rack serves to interconnect all the components stored in it.

What I’m concerned about is this. Since these interconnected components will be plugged into different circuits…i.e., a branch circuit that terminates at a panel 80 feet away, while the rest will use dedicated circuits that terminate a few feet away at the sub panel….will I end up with ground loop noise issues? As I said, the system is already very quiet and I would hate to lose more than I would gain.

Is there any wiring strategy that might help avoid it? I’m not sure I exactly understand the concept, but if I told my electrician to ‘star ground’ the dedicated lines, would that be enough? Should I instead think about putting the subpanel closer to the main panel? On the other hand, would it be better to not risk it and instead invest in one of the uber-top of the line power conditioners, or perhaps a power regenerator?

Whatever opinions or advice I can get from the Audiogon community would be appreciated.
shutterman

Showing 3 responses by jea48

One question I haven’t nailed down as yet: Do I need to buy both a 100 amp (or, perhaps the 60-70 amp you mentioned) breaker for one of the two available slots on the main panel AS WELL AS a 100 Amp main breaker at the sub panel?
The sub panel does not need a main breaker. Buy a main lug only load center.

BTW, thank you for your tip about making all the wiring for the circuits off the subpanel the same AWG. I had thought about using 10/2 for the mono amp circuits and 12/2 for the rest. Your advice about not using a mixture of AWG is appreciated.
That was someone else but I agree..... As short as your branch circuit runs are you could use 12-2 W/G for all the branch circuits.The electrician would probably give you a big hug as well....
8' to 20' branch circuit runs, call me cautious but I would try to keep them with in a couple of feet of each other. No coiling up though...

A couple of final questions if you don’t mind…with a 100 amp subpanel in mind, the electrician had recommended a #3 AWG copper cable for the feeder line. I assume this means a 3 conductor solid core cable with safety ground wire…right?
Per UL for sizing the over current device,(breaker), for #2 awg wire and smaller use the
60* C column. #3 awg THHN/THWN copper wire is good for 85 amps.
If you look inside your 200 amp panel some where on the side you will see an info label. The label will say what the maximum allowable size branch circuit breaker that can be installed in the panel. Just guessing 80 amp. Check your panel.
In most cases the lug size on a 60 amp breaker is for a maximum size wire of #4 awg. You would have to use at least a 70 amp breaker for #3 awg wire. The maximum lug size for a 70, I believe, is #2 awg.

#3 awg wire will be stranded.

As far as trying to keep everything in the sub panel on the same leg is concerned…since it is being fed from only one leg off the main panel, does this mean that each and every breaker row in the sub panel is therefore also on this same leg? In other words, there’s no need to skip breaker rows in the sub to ensure the all the audio gear is fed from the same leg?
Are you feeding the sub panel with 120V only or 120/240V?
If 120/240V every other breaker down each side is the same Line, leg.

Future? I would probably feed the panel 120/240V
2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 equipment grounding conductor.
Jim

The existing branch circuit (which will continue to feed the cable box installed in the rack, the plasma TV in the other room, the wall wart devices, etc.) is terminated and grounded at the main panel 80 feet away. The dedicated lines would terminate, and I assume be grounded at, a subpanel less than 10 feet away.
09-17-09: Shutterman
If you are going to install a sub panel, feed all audio equipment that will be inter connected by ics from the sub panel only. Any thing fed from the 80 ft branch circuit and connected by ics to equipment fed from the sub panel will surely cause ground loop hum, jmo.....
Unfortunately, I think your opinion lines up with mine and gives me reason to believe that a multiple circuit (dedicated or not) might cause more issues than it would solve.

BTW, I noticed your comments were specific to equipment connected via IC's. What about the notion that in a metal rack, ALL the equipment loaded into it is interconnected...whether interconnects are present or not? Or am I reading too much into, or not properly understanding,this publication from Middle Atlantic?
Not really.... My comments are in regards to using the existing 80 ft 20 amp dedicated branch circuit and branch circuit/s from a sub panel with an 80 ft feeder to feed equipment that would be connected together by ics of equipment fed from the two different fed power systems. Has nothing to do with rather the equipment is rack mounted or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Isolated ground power strip in a non-isolated rack (cont.)

A problem will exist due to the fact that all equipment with a 3-prong (grounded) plug has the power cord ground conductor bonded to
the chassis. When this rackmounted equipment is screwed to the rackrail, an inadvertent ground connection will be present, defeating
the isolation!"
In the above quoted info the author is talking about commercial building power wiring situations. Problems a person would not normally encounter in a single family dwelling unit, imo.

You are not going to use an isolated ground system are you?

If you install a sub panel, as you said, about 10 ft from the rack I see no problem.

Branch circuit runs will be short, less than 20 ft. (Figuring up and down or around.)



80 ft? Is that straight as the crow flies? Did you figure up, down, and around?

In the sub panel you will have an isolated neutral bar and an equipment ground bar. Sizing all conductors the same will a sure both the neutral bar and the ground bar will be at the same ground potential.

So if you are worried about the possibility of the neutral conductor and equipment grounding conductor not being at the same ground potential at the sub panel make all the feeder conductors the same size....

Minimum size feeder wire I would recommend, #4 awg copper. Breaker size 60 or 70 amp.

Electrical panel, copper bus only..... No aluminum bus.