Side note: There's a little info to be gleaned from the impedance plot of this speaker. https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-carina-bs2434-loudspeaker-measurementsSee the rising impedance above 6 kHz? Since AMTs are almost purely resistive above resonance, this indicates the crossover designer has incorporated some EQ into the crossover in order to achieve the remarkably flat (good) response. This goes to what I have been trying to explain to my fello A'goners, with mixed success. A crossover isn't just a frequency and a slope, but also EQ. If you want to reproduce a passive speaker's crossover in an active system you have to reproduce the entire voltage transfer function. |
If you can tell the type of tweeter you are listening to, I can assure you it is not among the best in the world.
I have no idea what I'm listening to, which is really cool, since now I know that means its the best in the world! |
I dont care about the best tweeter. Whats the best speaker in the world? |
@kenjit I dont care about the best tweeter. Whats the best speaker in the world? Oops, sorry for stomping on your thread. It would be rude of me to bring in a whole different subject into a thread you started. Oh, wait, that was you. Hahahah. Erik |
Nothing beats a well implemented silk dome tweeter to my ears.
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How is this thread any different from asking what the best speaker in the world is? |
How is this thread any different from asking what the best speaker in the world is? The person who started it and the content in the original post. |
erik_squires thinks the best tweeter is no tweeter.
Eric Alexander thinks 15 tweeters is even better.
If only I knew which to believe. Dang. This is a tough one. |
Swapping out the tweeters in many speakers is not a big modification. So even if you dont have a tweeter you dont like, just swap it. Problem solved. You can easily have the best tweeter in your speakers with a quick modification.
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Thank you Eric. Been an ESS fan since 1973, purchased a pair of ESS AMT4. Later purchased a pair of ESS AMT5 with the round ring tweeter. The actual AMT driver/veils material has changed over the decades, resulting in much controversary. IMHO, just needed a midrange/woofer to keep up. |
i think it has been established that these forums are incapable of coming up with a best of anything. Its just a place to argue about opinions. It would be better to ask what is your favourite tweeter of all and which do you seek to have. More fun |
Lots of nice drivers out there, of various designs. The implementation is at least as important as the design.
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Yep... no other tweeter sounds as natural, neutral and transparent than the AMT folded ribbon tweeter, or the Magnepan ribbon tweeter. |
My Magnepans have tweeters? I can't tell.....the sound seems perfect no matter what I play. ;)
Seriously...I have to stand right beside them and check to see if inside or outside...the coherence is that good. |
Janszens front, Raal ribbon center, AMTs rear.
All good in those positions. |
@millercarbon erik_squires thinks the best tweeter is no tweeter.
Eric Alexander thinks 15 tweeters is even better. That statement is priceless, my wife is asking me what am I laughing about, so funny |
No offense to either Eric, it is just in this audiophile world we all have so much diverse completely opposite opinions.
I can add that someone I know including myself thinks tweeters in the front and tweeters firing backwards to the back wall and tweeters firing and splashing on the ceiling might be even better
Crazy world
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The best tweeter os Fm acoustic ribbon tweeter and the best speaker is Cessaro
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HELP!
I do not suggest you should use a single-driver, full ranger with a whizzer, heavens no. That’s just wrong (grin) and a clear cry for help.
LOL Have Rethm Saadhana (Widebander with a whizzer) and believe they sound as good as any speaker I have ever auditioned, And you are correct Eric, no tweeter IS the best tweeter!! Happy 2020 to all! |
Gang: Please don't skip this part:
What I am suggesting is that in the very best tweeters in the
world, of which some are AMTs, and many are not, you simply cannot tell
what they are.
I don't actually have a problem with the Tektons, I think they are pretty innovative and unfairly maligned from a technical perspective. But if you can sit in front of it and go "Aha, that's an SB 123 model tweeter" something is wrong. :) Erik |
I agree with the Op based on one experience with LXmini's, that don't have a tweeter. Based on that one experience, I'd go one further and say the best speakers aren't in a box. |
Kenjit, have you personally ever "swapped out tweeters" in your loudspeakers?
Did you research their characteristics and the crossover points in your loudspeaker and other drivers first? Did you do any anti-phase measurements to discern how deep and symetrical the curve is between the drivers and also the linearity they sum to reproduce? And if any energy would have to be added or removed from what the drivers see to help linearity?
I'm just curious
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@rixthetrick Kenjit, have you personally ever "swapped out tweeters" in your loudspeakers? yes. Ive tried with my PMC and green mountains. Did you research their characteristics and the crossover points in your loudspeaker and other drivers first?
not at all. i just picked the tweeters that would fit with the least amount of drilling or cutting. Did you do any anti-phase measurements to discern how deep and symetrical the curve is between the drivers and also the linearity they sum to reproduce? none whatsoever. All of what I do is custom tuned to my ears by hand. Same way a high end piano would be tuned. And the same way all speaker engineers do it despite what they would have you believe. And if any energy would have to be added or removed from what the drivers see to help linearity? what linearity? If youre alluding to the dreaded flat frequency response then thats a myth. All I'm suggesting is that swapping a tweeter is a minor modification mechanically. It will also involve adjustments to the crossover but thesedays thats easy to do with dsp. |
kenjit "If youre alluding to the dreaded flat frequency response then thats a myth." If you are not interested in flat, neutral, uncolored frequency response then any speaker can be you're Best Speaker just pick one with you're preferred distortion, coloration, and deviation from flat FR many people like distortion so enjoy! |
The problem with most speakers is that the drivers don't add up to flat power output unless you are in the right place, which we call "the sweet spot". It's worse with disparate polar patterns, Long ribbons, like Magnepan uses in the 3.7i and up can mitigate this. 20.7s and 30.7s are pretty awesome in their orchestral scale, coherency, and naturlism.
IMO, to be "best" a speaker would have to have flat power response in a quarter sphere radiation pattern and keep the sound coherent no matter where the listener is. Ohm Acoustics tries to do this with many of their Walsh-derived models, which I have not heard. German Physiks uses the Walsh principle for a full 360 degrees, just as the old Ohm F did, but given their advanced materials technology, just might be my candidate for a "best". Anyone familiar with these? |
The problem with most speakers is that the drivers don't add up to flat
power output unless you are in the right place, which we call "the sweet
spot". This is only true if your definition of an ideal speaker is one with the widest sweet spot. Many are deliberately designed to avoid this in order to better work with room acoustics. Further, show me a mastering room which uses an omni? If there are any, they are super rare. Of course, buy what you like. :) Just saying that when you take a position like this you are doing so because you favor some things and not others. |
crustycoot
The problem with most speakers is that the drivers don’t add up to flat power output unless you are in the right place, which we call "the sweet spot" Best tweeter by far that is 360’, and so transparent it floats front it’s image like firefly’s front of you that you can reach out and touch, no other tweeter can match these, it’s a non horn loaded Plasma tweeter. I have a pair that xover from my ESL’s and are truly way above anything else for a tweeter even the ESL’s, as the diaphragm is ionized air created by the Plasma flame, there is no mass, and the signal pulsates that ionized cone of air, they also extend out to 150khz with no resonate ringing, no phase shift with these down into the audible frequencies. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnat-Plasma-MP-02-ion-tweeter-massless-air-plasma-speaker-Plasmahochtoner/282700838884?hash=item41d24877e4:g:yJkAAOSwTmtZ6PwI Cheers George |
I had to click George’s link to see that ion plasma tweeter, which seems so interesting but then I read reports of that model generating ozone, which is not healthy.
What are are people’s opinions of electrostatic treble?
I happen to augment my beryllium tweeters with permanently charged horn loaded electrostatic tweeters (enigmacoustics) coming in at 10khz.
I sometime turn them around to use as rear ambience tweeters and am looking for something to use as permanent rear ambience. |
I had to click George’s link to see that ion plasma tweeter, which seems so interesting but then I read reports of that model generating ozone, which is not healthy. Yeah but it’s minuscule amount, and I always have a door or a window open just in case. They sound magnificent, highs are like delicate firefly’s dancing in air in front of you. They will blow you away hearing a good recording of a real old school Harpsicord being played through them, as they have a very complex harmonic structure decay to it’s fundamental. And there are "ozone generators" (negative-ion generators) that charge the air with negative ions and they smell the same, they are used and said to keep people alert at work or in offices. The smell is something like I smelt once in a very dry air underground cave that had stalagmites and stalactites in it. And it said to be in the air just before a summer rain shower, you know how you say you can smell the rain coming, that the ozone you smell Cheers George |
I heard the Vaughn Cabernet Line Array with their ion tweeter at the Florida Audio Expo...sounded great and not even a hint of post lightening ion smell.. Jim (Jordan) said that the ion smell/possible health problems had been resolved and as he began explaining, a bunch of people came into the room, he was pulled away and I didn't hang out long enough to resume the conversation as there was a steady stream of people. |
I think what Erik is saying is that a well implemented and integrated tweeter that disappears, is best.
I seem to be preferring silk domes lately (maybe always?) in my personal setups. I’ve liked ribbons in the past, and planers as well. I’m curious about AMT’s.
I really liked Wharfedales new Evo’s but those are the only AMT I have heard so far. A pair of Adam T5V’s will probably be a near future purchase.
MBL seems to always make an impression on me, and Alsyvox blew me away this year.
I been floored by plasma tweeters as well. The delicacy in sound is awesome but what really got me was the bite that brass instruments have. |
I think what Erik is saying is that a well implemented and integrated tweeter that disappears, is best. That is exactly what I mean.
I been floored by plasma tweeters as well. The delicacy in sound is
awesome but what really got me was the bite that brass instruments have.
I'm going to see if I can hear just this sometime. My experience is limited to audio shows and hotel rooms and I was not floored. :) |
I am listening to the Monitor Audio Gold 100 5g in my second system. Very natural and musical 👌 |
The Spatial Audio X3 is my first speaker with an AMT driver. I can say that it is well integrated and never calls attention to itself. Just a very natural representation of high frequencies. I'm a fan now.
Oz
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To me the vast majority of speakers sound like a compilation of drivers, and artificial in that way.
An exception has been my Thiel 3.7 and 2.7 speakers. They are as perfectly coherent as I’ve ever heard in the mids and highs. There is zero sense of discontinuity or any hint at all that there is a tweeter doing anything. It just sounds like the mids extend smoothly right up and out of hearing range. (All this is helped by their particularly strong coherence and control down to the bass frequencies too).
Are they the best quality highs I’ve ever heard? No. I’ve certainlh heard more beautiful, exciting or refined highs (eg my Joseph speakers).
Nut for sheer sonic invisibility of drivers and treble coherence I haven’t heard them beat in a box speaker. |
If you can tell the type of tweeter you are listening to, I can assure you it is not among the best in the world.
erik_squires
I finannly understand what Erik is trying to get across. All tweeters suck. I concur after extensive experimentation past few months. I hate all dome tweeters, Now I did purchase a AMT, as per Erik I hate it. Its not efficient, sounds like a tinny cheap piece of junk./ Now as for tweeters. My 1963 made in the USA Magnovox horn tweeter, = best in the world. However just as good/better is the Full range/Point source drivers comming out of Germany. a FR/PS is the finest tweeter in the world. Other than of course the pricey FC from Japan/Germany. Ribbons, AMT.Domes all junk , trash as far as I'm concerned. Horns or FR/PS, Nothing superior. Full Range out of china are all junk, trash. Garbage. The sens is too low and distortion levels do have fatigue, Cheap, but really not worth the money. |
prof2,764 posts02-24-2020 7:55amTo me the vast majority of speakers sound like a compilation of drivers, and artificial in that way.
An exception has been my Thiel 3.7 and 2.7 speakers. They are as perfectly coherent as I’ve ever heard in the mids and highs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Next to a good quality FR/PS, all speakers in mids/highs will not stand up to a shoot out, Including your beloved Thiel's. Yeah yeah, I know, *My Thiels are wonderful....** Once you get a FR/PS in your system, then the Thiels weakness will be fully exposed. Everyone here should get at least 1 chinese FR just for testing purposes only,. Then you will understand why I am a totaly fan-atic over high sens drivers. make ita DL FR, sure its $400/pair, you can dump it on ebay at half price. Now you will have your 1st experience in FR. Perhaps audio shows will start back in 2022, and there you can actually hear a true FR , AER and Vox. Waiting line to get in the room. You will have to listen from outside in the hallway. |
kw6596 posts02-23-2020 9:18pmI am listening to the Monitor Audio Gold 100 5g in my second system. Very natural and musical 👌
~~~ At least this is your limited exp. Wait til you hear a true FR, Then you can say like Jimi Hendrix,, *Have you ever been experierienced?? WEll I have* |
Mozartfan and Kenjit...
audiogon is turning into a sad joke.
I dont trust a word they say. |
Now I did purchase a AMT, as per Erik
I hate it.
Its not efficient, sounds like a tinny cheap piece of junk./ << sigh >> I can’t stress enough how little these statements help anyone participate or learn. Exactly which AMT did you use? How did you use it? How did you design the crossover? As I mention, repeatedly, AMTs like all other tweets span the gamut from terrible to amazing. Please be specific, otherwise it’s like saying: "I got a sedan and it was terrible" and then implying all sedans are bad. Or, "I got a hammer and the house I built with it fell down." |
Ebay, $75/pair
xover a 2.2 cap.
trust me thats was quite enough.
I ’m going FR for mids./highs.
The Magnoxov 1963 horn tweeter is a hidden gem. Best tweeter as far as i;’m concerned.
USA engineers really put attention into that horn. btw its Phenolic cone which Richard Gray says is the best dome for horns, = More musical vs Titanium.
Erik I am very surprised you have not come around to FR/PS drivers as yet> whats up with that?
I thought you were in search for the worlds best sounding speakers?? |
Ebay, $75/pair
xover a 2.2 cap.
trust me thats was quite enough.
Oh for heaven's sake. You spent money on a random tweeter, threw a random cap on it and want to claim any authority at all about the sound of AMTs in general? Erik I am very surprised you have not come around to FR/PS drivers as yet> whats up with that? I thought you were in search for the worlds best sounding speakers??
I refer you back to my original post:
I do not suggest you should use a single-driver, full ranger with a
whizzer, heavens no. That’s just wrong (grin) and a clear cry for help.
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murphythecat156 posts06-21-2021 9:54amMozartfan and Kenjit...
audiogon is turning into a sad joke.
I dont trust a word they say.
Two of the worst. |
I do not suggest you should use a single-driver, full ranger with a whizzer, heavens no. That’s just wrong (grin) and a clear cry for help.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Look In late Oct / RMAF there will be a room with Vox and AER, Go listen with a UNBIASED ear, to the highs in these 2 speakers, Then come back and report. The older models with whizzers may have issues reproducing highs. The new models represent a new development. AMT's would never work for me, Sure it was a random pot shot buying some cheapies on ebay, but they give me a idea of what to expect from that design. Just go to the RMAF, and report back on the FR/PS speakers in the high fq's. Jere is one FC from 1929,, which to my ears, has incredible soundstage ~~presence~~ at least in the mids. EDIT upon 3rd listen Plase Include the highs as STUNNING , natural , super high fidelity, This is ~~1929~~ mind you. Blows away most speakers I've heard over the years, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqv5nOjLuw |
I have the Burmeister sound system in my little Porsche....It has AMT's for the tweeters (probably to save space).....not so impressed. |
Most AMT will not have a good low frequency response compared to the typical dome tweeter, which means you have to cross them with a rather steep slope - most likely a 4th order slope. Having a high order slope in itself will have its own sound signature |
The plasma tweeters I have heard put the AMTs to shame. As andy points out certain tweeters require a very steep crossover which dictates aspects of the speaker's design which may or may not be to your liking. Not a fan of high order crossovers as a whole. So the tweeter itself means nothing without looking at the speaker as a whole. |
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I have Maggie's and AMT done by Monitor Audio latest series. They sound hifi nice but don't sound real! I haven't heard Cube Audio single driver but doubt they can to treble better than ESL! Enjoy😃 |
Aside from my electrostatics of yester-year all tweeters have been domes and I've always preferred silk to any metallic domes. I enjoyed the Esotar II until I moved to Raidho's D series ultra-lightweight sealed ribbon tweeter. I have heard nothing yet that I prefer (although I have no doubt there are plenty as good).
The sealed ribbon's resolution and high end treble sound superbly delicate, sweet and clear, and somehow, no matter the program material, they never hurt my ears, like other speakers did. Just my experience but I'm supremely happy with them.
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