I haven't compared the hardware you mentioned, but you might put a Galibier Table on your short list.
I have a Galibier Quattro ALU with the Teflon Platter and a Tri-Planar Tonearm, and couldnt be happier.
Galibiers Thom Mackris help, suggestions, hand holding (this was the first table I set-up) were absolutly first class. http://www.galibierdesign.com/index.html
Dealing with Thom was simply a wonderful experience. While Thom is certainly a business owner, my experience suggests that his motives are not primarily monetarily driven; but driven by a desire to share the conclusions of his many hours of tweaking, along with his love of music reproduction with those of us found on forums like this. I know it sounds trite to suggest that hes not in it for the money, but considering the many hours he spent with me, the manufacturing and machining costs associated with his 100lb. plus turntables, hes obviously making some bucks, but working equal hours in the profession hes educated, would I imagine, bring more monetary, but certainly less personal rewards.
In fact dealing with "cottage industry" folks like Thom of Galibier, Mick of Supratek (pre's & amp's), and a local fellow for cables, have been very rewarding, and special experiences. While the rest of my rig cant be necessarily described as comprised of cottage industry components, my CAT amps, and Soundlab speakers are very close to being so e.g., not much advertising, few periodical reviews, but oh, what marvelous equipment!
For reasonable prices (i.e., relative items with similar sonic attributes), and the service one receives, my experiences highly recommend taking this small or cottage industry path. Obviously, thats not to say that the equipment found at the more mainstream companys cant compare, because I'm sure it can; however for me, knowing where my money is going, and being able to contact the designer especially for a complex item like a turntable, has been a big positive.
Good luck on your hunt
I'll let others comment on the table differences as I haven't had an opportunity to A/B what you are considering. I will say that the 265 Teres is very, very good, IMO. A good friend has this table with a system very similar to yours. He is using a Triplanar arm with a ZYX Universe Silver cartridge and it is a stellar performer.
I will say without any hesitation that the Illustrious is not in the same league with the Shroder. Not even close.
For reference I had the pleasure recently of direct A/B of the Teres 340 and 360 as well as all three Shroder arms, a Triplanar and a Graham 2.2. Identical cartridges were used for the evaluations. Both tables were made to accomodate two arms. This was a real once in a lifetime event and I would be surprised if anyone has A/B'd directly, in the same room at the same time any of these tables.
I urge you to consider a Scheu premier II table direct from Germany. A 9" arm version with 80mm platter can be had for under 2000 shipped methinks. The standard 50mm platter is maybe 200 less. It can be ordered in a single 12" arm configuration, 9", dual 9", or dual 9"/12". This one is hard to beat for the price and an extremely good and well built table. I have a SME 312 arm coming to mount on mine to replace a unipivot arm I don't much like; ie, just cannot stand the side to side rocking motions of unipivot arms.
I second Lugnut. I haven't heard an Illustrious but I owned a highly modded OL Silver. It couldn't hold a candle to a Schroeder, any Schroeder. I'd be embarassed to drag an OL arm into the same room with a Schroeder.
At the meet Lugnut attended the $2,400 Schroeder Two matched or beat a $3,900 Graham 2.2/IC-70. That was with a ZYX UNIverse on each arm, same table, same everything, we even tried two different preamps and some stepups.
There are no commercial reviews of a Teres because Teres doesn't sell via dealers, advertise in mags or provide free goodies to reviewers. We've discussed this a few times in the past. What they do is make well engineered tables and sell them directly to users for lower prices. There have been a few side by side comparisons described here and on VA. Not many, but a search should turn them up.
I also second Mrmb's endorsement of small, cottage industry manufacturers. You have to do your homework, the mainstream reviewers won't do it for you, but the value and performance often go far beyond what larger companies provide at given price points. If you can set up your own table, arm and cartridge then why not pay yourself the dealer's share? That's what you're doing in effect when you buy direct from Teres, Galibier, Scheu, etc.
Here's one plausible setup near your budget:
Teres 265 (Rosewood) $3,875
Teres VTA adaptor 200
Schroeder DPS 3,900
TOTAL $7,975 before discount
Teres may offer a package discount to put it near your budget. That would be a fine front end. You didn't say what cartridge(s) you'll be using, what kind of music you like or what kind of sound you're after. Knowing all that would help extend the discussion.
My recommedation is a Redpoint Audio turntable. To be fair, I own one. Although I also did my research and included the Teres and Galibier in my search... To my ears, I found both the Redpoint and Galibier superior to the Teres models that i listened to (including the model 340). In addition, as both the Redpoint and Galibier are machined out of various metals, they are not prone to cracking and warping as a wood based table is.
Hello: For the past two weeks I have been listening to my new Teres 320 with Schroeder DPS arm and Shelter 501. This is the finest front end I have used. My previous tables have been Teres 255 with Tri-Planar, SOTA Cosmos Vacume with a Tri-Planar, Linn LP12, VPI Aries and JMW Arm, all with the same 501. The Teres tables have given me the most for my money. Not only do I find them stunning in appearnce but they have out performed by a significant margin my previous rigs. I have recently mounted a ZYX Airy 2 and have experienced another significant upgrade in sound. The Teres tables are rock solid performers. The Schroeder arm is very well made and takes some adjusting(as is expected). I did not compare the Schroeder to the Tri-Planar on the same table but I consider the Schroeder the finest I have used. If you are looking for top performance the 320 with a DPS ZYX will make you very happy. Regards....
I second Mrmb's recommendation to put Galibier on the short list. I also have a Galibier ALU with Teflon/aluminum composite platter. The table is first class, and so is Thom.
I too have a Schroeder (Model 2). I agree this is a fantastic arm, especially so for the money). The DPS and Reference are better, but it not if you're on a budget. Mine is mounted on a Platine Verdier with an Allaerts MC1-B. The ZYX carts are fine pick ups. although I prefer my Allaerts, which is more difficult to get hold of.
All this talk about Schroeders is giving me an inferiority complex about my modded OL Silver! :^)
Those arms are really something. Frank has taken each engineering need and reduced it to its simplist solution. The craftsmanship, tolerances and attention to detail is second to none. These are lasting designs. The Tri-planar is no slouch though and "could" be a better match for some systems. Also, I suspect that cartridges that we didn't get to audition might pair up particularly well with one arm or another.
Several things struck me as particularly surprising. The biggest surprise being the difference between the 340 and the 360 Teres. I just didn't expect it to be that much. The term "huge" is often used to excess in these forums and I will refrain from using it here. Significant would be a better choice to describe the gains. Well worth the difference in cost. Even the wooden case drive motor improved the performance a fair amount. Knock me over with a feather.
At $10,000 the Lyra Olympos, single layer coil version cartridge was bettered by the Universe to these ears. What we listened to was the copper version of the Universe. Steve has the silver version and the conventional wisdom is that the copper is better for large orchestral and the silver is best for jazz, blues and rock. It's a shame we didn't bring Steve's for an overall shootout between these two.
The Schroeder No. 2 @ $2200 with a carbon fiber arm wand just has to be a best buy. It is worthy of hanging an Olympos or Universe on it. I watched closely the setup of these arms. Of course, those doing the adjustments were seasoned professionals but I didn't see anything that was difficult nor time consuming. Of particular note is that the Schroeder arms are proven a good match with suspended tables. In a previous session the Shelter 901 was a particularly good match with the Schroeder arms but since I wasn't in attendance at that event I will let Doug address just how good the match was.
If, like me, you consider the human ear to be the most accurate of measuring devices this was a very scientific testing procedure. I'll never forget it.
"There are no commercial reviews of a Teres because Teres doesn't sell via dealers, advertise in mags or provide free goodies to reviewers. "
Calling Teres: comments? Have there been requests for products to review, be it hardcopy or online? What sorts of "strings" exactly are the requesters imposing?
Not to go off subject but it's Schröder.
Lugut nailed it again in his latest post. I heard exactly what he described. Change the case on an outboard motor. Hear a difference. Who knew? That was astonishing.
The Schroeder Model Two is indeed an absolute bargain at its price point. Glorious sound, no significant flaws. Just less resolution than a DPS or Reference, stuff you may never miss unless you hear it.
I don't know if the UNIverse beat the Olympus, but it certainly matched it. The ZYX has two advantages over the Lyra: it's $5,000 cheaper and they're still making it! I've been calling the UNIverse a "bargain". Seems obscene but this was one more bit of evidence that it truly is.
As Lugnut mentioned, cartridge/arm synergy is vital. With UNIverses on the TriPlanar VII and Schroeder Reference we had to A/B the same track 5 or 6 times before anyone would say a word. They were that close. This didn't happen with any other comparisons we made, 30 seconds was often enough. Changing the turntable's motor case was more significant. Changing from a steel/cocobolo clamp to a brass/cocobolo clamp was more significant. This was nearly a dead heat.
To my ears and Paul's the TriPlanar/UNIverse had crisper attacks. The Reference/UNIverse had slightly richer and more extended harmonic trails. That was about it.
Put a Shelter 901 on these two arms and everything changes. The superior resonance control of the Schroeder comes into its own to tame that overly excitable cartridge. The superiority of the Schroeder over the TriPlanar with that cartridge is immediately obvious to all.
The TriPlanar VII is not a bright arm, but neither will it conceal a bright or overly-energetic cartridge. It's a superb match for the three ZYX's we've tried, but less well-damped cartridges may not suit it so well. The Schroeder Reference damps spurious resonances better, maybe better than any arm. That leads me to suspect it would give world class performance with any (reasonable) cartridge. That's one reason I believe it's the world's best pivoting arm.
Ok, I know it's an umlaut over the "o", but I can't remember the keystrokes for this. I presume you know the keystroke for a beta "s" as well!!
I don't think Frank really objects, particularly if like me, you've bought one of his arms.
I don't have an "umlaut" on my keyboard either, and don't know any other way to make one.
Not only do I not object to being spelled without the umlaut "dots", I decided to skip them when I sketched the logo many years ago for the impossibility to turn the O into a stylized turntable without confusing its simplicity or "purity".
There is at least another tonearm designer, Hans Henrik Moerch, who has to live with the fact that most keyboards don´t feature an o with a line through it(the Danish o umlaut).
As long as you don´t get my first name wrong.... ;-)
Ah, one more thing: The differences between the Olympos and the ZYX Universe(copper coil version) are quite small indeed, but when it comes to tracking, the Olympos is clearly superior with a test signal(not that the Universe mistracks on "normal" records). Soundwise I will wait and hear how the Universe fares once mine has at least 50hrs on it.
And the latest Triplanar is a very fine arm indeed, yielding a markedly improved sound*(for the lack of a better word, or just substitute "lack thereof") over its predecessors.
I stand humbled. Now to start saving for a Shroder arm.
Dear Hanjiang: You really have a very nice audio system , especially your loudspeakers.
Now, before I can give you an advise about a tonearm I would like to know which is your phono cartridge to mate with it: this couple cartridge/tonearm is a critical issue in the quality music/sound reproduction on any audio system and it is not a good way to do the things: to choose a tonearm with out to know " with which cartridge ".
About the TT my advise is that you have to stay away of wood/acrylic designs ( save the SME TTs ), those wood/acrylic designs are a beautiful designs but the quality of the sound has nothing to do with how a TT " looks " but how it performs and the all metal TT designs outperforms ( by a wide margin ) any wood/acrylic TT design. That's why Wildwildwes told us: **** " . To my ears, I found both the Redpoint and Galibier superior to the Teres models that i listened to (including the model 340). In addition, as both the Redpoint and Galibier are machined out of various metals, they are not prone to cracking and warping as a wood based table is. " ****
Yes, the Galiber and the Red Point beats Teres. Not that Teres is not a good TT, it is but the materials that choose the manufacturer are not the best ones for the performance of a TT.
You can find, second hand, great all metal ( heavy mass ) TTs here at Audiogon classifieds or you can choose to buy it new units, here are some alternatives: Verdier, Avid, Acoustic Signature, Red Point, Galibier, Brinckman, Micro Seiki, Pluto, Transrotor, SME, ....etc.
Regards and enjoy the music.
As a very satisfied owner of a Schroeder Model 2, I can confidently say that it changes the landscape and makes listening to music a pure joy.
In fact, I would recommend that you spend on the table and arm, and leave the rest of the budget on the cart. There are many good recommendations for tables = scheu, teres, galibier, redpoint, VPI scoutmaster. For arms, there is only 1 I would consider, and the model 2 is THE bargain.
With one of these combinations, just get a decent cart like a DL103R or the Shelter 501 and spend the rest of software. You'll be more satisfied with the result.
PS: Frank has a brass mount top plate specially for the DL103R, its a fantastic match.
Dear Hanjiang: There are other two non-all metal alternatives: Sota Millenium and the Big Basis, both TTs use a Vacuum hold record. This characteristic is one of the reason that put these TTs in the " all-stars " all-metal TTs team.
BTW, the profesional reviews is the best way to start your turntable/tonearm/cartridge " hunting ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
I realise this could be a can of worms, but I am curious, has anyone actually done a fair A/B comparison between a Teres and an equivalent Galibier or Redpoint?
No doubt there will be differences, but can someone without a vested interest, also setting aside any personal biases(like if you own one or the other), give an honest opinion on the differences you heard. The differences maybe better in one area, but a weakness in another, or it may not be anything but a difference in presentation, with either turntable just being different.
Instead of having biases cloud our opinion, rather celebrate our differences, but could someone just describe what they heard so that others may form informed opinions on each TT's sonic attributes, rather than bashing each other?
I have personally heard Thom's Galibier in his system and was very impressed, but did not have a chance to hear a Teres, or at least a current model, only serial #21. However, both sessions were in different systems which doesn't allow any conclusions to be drawn about their "sound" or lack thereof.
Sorry, but I can't resist...
Døësn't ånyønë ëlsë hâvé än "øptîøn" këy on hîs/hër kêybøard?
(Setting up diacritical marks on a keyboard isn't quite as difficult as setting up a tonearm!)
Dear Cmk: Here in this thread you already have an answer to your question, by Wildwildwes: ***** " My recommedation is a Redpoint Audio turntable. To be fair, I own one. Although I also did my research and included the Teres and Galibier in my search... To my ears, I found both the Redpoint and Galibier superior to the Teres models that i listened to (including the model 340). In addition, as both the Redpoint and Galibier are machined out of various metals, they are not prone to cracking and warping as a wood based table is. " *****.
Regards and enjoy the music.
No "option" key on my keyboard.
Dear Berlin,how about having a REFERENCE arm at HE 2005(in N.Y.)in April.Last year I saw one of your arms in a static(useless,to a potential buyer)display.I think you realize that there is a real interest in your product,especially myself,and a friend.It may be a good idea to have a RUNNING arm at this show.Also,are there any reviews of the REFERENCE,other than on an internet forum.Not that these are not valid.Just that,usually when someone spends their own money on something,they will RARELY mention any potential problems,since they have invested a small fortune in the product.Thanks!!
Hey Am Dial! But most people have an ALT key and a numeric keypad. You can get all of the extended characters if you know the code (is that ASCII, ansi, or unicode?) alt and a numeric keypad. No option key needed!
Dear sirspeedy(your real name?),
Your suggestion is one of many to participate in shows all over the world. If I was to do this, actual manufacturing time would be reduced to a few weeks per year. Besides, the HIGH END Show in Munich is too close to be present at both shows.
I love NY but I´d have no time to recover from jetlag, nor to prepare for the HIGH END. The prospect of demoing at a crowded hotel in inadequate rooms doesn´t help either.
I will attend the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Sept/Oct. again, last year the number of excellent sounding rooms/systems was way above any other show I have attended and the atmosphere was relaxed and friendly. Well worth the trip...
There have been reviews of all my arms in the german press(IMAGE HIFI : DPS and Reference, HIFI & RECORDS : No.1 and Reference and AUDIOPHILE : DPS turntable with No.2 arm).
The UK based HIFI+ reviewed the Reference and there is a review of the No. 1 on TNT and another one of the DPS on 6moons.com, all very favorable.
Whether you consider these to be more meaningful than testimony by users on different forums is up to you. From personal experience I can tell you that many(not all) reviewers neither have the system, room nor time to really come to an "objective" assessment of a component. And objectivity is something you´d be searching forever in audio anyway...
I have declined several inquiries for additional reviews, since this would simply generate more interest = more mails to be answered, more arms to be made, longer waiting time(already longer than I'd like).
I welcome anyone to report problems, incompabilities or any other troubles(helps me to improve my product). I don´t feed my customers any drugs that keep them from speaking their minds.
BTW, my name is not Berlin, it´s the city I live in ;-)
Yes, I've read that reply, but what is doesn't tell me is the differences he heard, just a reference that one was superior to the other, but I still do not know, in what way(s) was it "superior"???
Can you tell me?
Frank,your end remark,about my referring to you as "Berlin" is sarcasm that is not necessary.I think you were successful at determining who I was directing my question to.Just as it is obvious, to all, that my name is not "Sir Speedy".It is common to refer to forum goers,as you know,by their screen names.I use Sirspeedy because that is the name of my business,and website.
I am intelligent enough,I think,to realize you originate from Berlin,just as I'm sure you can figure out my name is not Sirspeedy.
I thought I was asking a very legitimate question.I have always been very interested in your arm,as you probably know.Your response about your time-table is fine,and understandable.However I can't develope a buyer's emotion on anything I can't audition,and I'm sure you are selling plenty of arms.Good luck!!
Hi Doug: ***** "At the meet Lugnut attended the $2,400 Schroeder Two matched or beat a $3,900 Graham 2.2/IC-70. That was with a ZYX UNIverse on each arm, same table, same everything, we even tried two different preamps and some stepups. " *****
** " matched or beat.. " **, I think that this conclusion is a premature one, let me to explain it: first, the wires that use both tonearms are differents and each one had his own signature; second, I think that the effective mass of both tonearms is different too. If you combine these twoo issues with some other ones like: maybe the Two is a better match for the Teres than the Graham and maybe the ZYX mates better with the Two that with the Graham, then your conclusion is not really a conclusive one. Perhaps with the right cartridge your conclusion could be reverse, that the Graham beats the Two tonearm.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Lugnut: ***** " At $10,000 the Lyra Olympos, single layer coil version cartridge was bettered by the Universe to these ears. " *****
For any one can give a conclusion like yours, we have to do the evaluation in the same conditions: each cartridge mated with the TT/tonearm combination which it had her best performance, other way any evaluation was a premature one and a faulty one with no value at all. Your conclusion tell us only that the ZYX mates better with the TERES/Two combo than the Lyra, that's all.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Did you notice the whinking smiley at the end of that last line? No sarcasm intended.
I like to be called by my name as much as I like to call others by theirs, not their monikers. But that´s just me, your moniker wouldn´t keep me from communicating with you. I actually like it.
Developing a "buyers emotion" for more than just a tonearm will be easy if you come to the RMAF in Denver. I´ll be wearing a tag with my name on it, hehehe(couldn´t resist that one :-)
We can split hairs as finely as lawyers if you wish but nonetheless I heard what I heard. I would buy the Schroder 2 over the Graham. It seems the only conclusive opinions are those that you have.
I did however forget that the Lyra had only about 50 hours on it while the ZYX was fully broken it. Also, the Schroder arms were all brand new while the Triplanar was fully broken in as was the Graham. The Schroder 2 that we listened to had a graphite arm wand and retailed for $2200, not the $2400 you priced it at.
Following your twisted logic will lead one to not have any acceptable opinions, ever. Of course, you must be right being Raul and I offer my sincerest apology.
Just imagine if Romy the Cat and Raul were both posting on the same thread!
I don't think I could wrap my brain around that thought!
Whats the matter Raul, didn't your daddy pay enough attention to you while you were physically growing up?
Or is it more complicated than that?
You've posted in the past that the Graham 1.5 and its upgrades are just over-priced, mis-engineered knockoffs of the Audiocraft arm. I agree.
So I assume you're just trying to encourage a fuller discussion. Okay.
The Schroeders (and TriPlanar) have single runs of wire. The Graham has multiple breaks and connections, and some of those connections are quite poor. Breaks in any signal path are electrical roadblocks of course. When the signal level is this low such roadblocks become audible. Neither a cartridge change nor any other change short of a hard rewire could alter this fundamental weakness of the Graham design.
The ZYX's are an excellent mass/compliance match for a Graham. 9-11 Hz in both modes.
No one's heard everything, but we have also listened to Koetsu's and Shelters. Same result every time, with every group: the Schroeder wins unanimously.
Sometimes better is better.
I've always thought that Raul and Romy were one in the same.
Dear Lugnut: I think that you only " read " but don't understand any thing about my post.
I write about the phono cartridges and your answer is about tonearms. You are talking about a different subject, maybe this is why you speak about my " twisted logic ".
BTW, why " twisted logic " ? can you explain ?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Vetterone: I really like the Merlin speakers. Good for you.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Doug: Maybe you have to read again my post. My point is not if the Two or the Graham tonearms are better one to the other ( btw, any two tonearms ), maybe the Two really beats the Graham: that's fine for me.
My point is that if we have to do an evaluation between two differents tonearms we have to have some rules about, one of that rules is that each tonearm has to be mated with the audio items where it shows his best performance: that's all. Yes, I know that your rules are different but I think that that kind of " massive " evaluations are not conclusive other that you and your friends really have great fun with it. Nothing wrong with that.
Doug, I thing that you know that I have severals TTs, tonearms and cartridges, I own all those items not because I'm a " collector item ", I own all those stuff because I really want to know the differences between them.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Hi Twl: Even what you don't eat do harm to you.
I wonder why.
Regards and enjoy the music.
This is my last reply to you. We tried all of the mentioned cartridges on all of the mentioned tonearms. I was there and you weren't. I liked the Universe over the Olympus but only by a very small margin. I would love to own either one. Clearly, to me anyway, at half the price and equal performance the Universe is the best buy.
Regarding your twisted logic you allude to perhaps certain tonearms preferring other turntables which, of course, means that perhaps some cartridges like some turntables more than others. With your method of comparrison it would be impossible to A/B anything. It would require multiples of the numbers of tables, arms and cartridges of what we had assembled. Doing such a large project would be financially impossible without sponsorship of the likes of Bill Gates. Also, the time required to change so many possible combinations would render the A/B'ing meaningless because those evaluating would be required to rely on their audio memory rather than a quick and honest A/B of the same tracks.
You may not agree with me or others, but what we did was about as scientific as practicably possible.
Lugnut: ***** " as practicably possible. " *****
I agree with that. Tks for your answer.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Frank,your point is well taken.I think I'll save my travel money and put it in an "Audio Account".I can probably shave off a few months of saving for your REF arm that way.Good for both of us,if I ever get to hear one.No sarcasm intended here,as I am truly fascinated with your design.
Regards from New Jersey
Raul, Your duplicity is actually a bit shocking. Lets contrast a few of your statements:
1) "Yes, the Galiber and the Red Point beats Teres". So when may I ask did you evaluate these three turntables? What were the circumstances? Were the components optimally matched? Of course it's really unlikely that you have heard any of the three turntables, but yet your comments are suprisingly authoratative.
2) "I think that this conclusion is a premature one... your conclusion is not really a conclusive one... other way any evaluation was a premature one and a faulty one with no value at all"
These were your comments about a very well controlled, side by side evaluation where all of the variables were kept the same except for the item being evaluated. Not only that but it was conducted with a group of experienced audiophiles, with a variety of music and with very clear consensus from the group. Yep, there will always be the possibility of flaws in both method and conclusions. But this evaluation was about as good as it gets.
How can you possibly hold both positions? You take a comment from somebody that you don't know, with absolutely no detail or supporting evidence and hold it up as fact. To make matters worse when the lack of facts was pointed out you simply repeated the same baseless assertion.
Then you have the audacity to claim that Doug and Lugnuts evaluations are flawed and of no value??
You certainly have well illustrated that something is indeed flawed.
Claiming that a product comparison has no value because components were not at their optimum reminds me of the old Linn claim. "The table was not set up right", if the Linn was not prefered.
The enthusiastic members here should not be insulted like this. They want as much as anyone to hear the differences in components. I believe they too will set the best conditions they can. What makes anyone else better at it. Does anyone have credentials in Proper Set-Upology?
If there is any "twisting" its with groundless critisisms and endorsments.
I have tried several tables and arms. I found the Teres and now Schreoder products to give me the best performance. For my money nothing beats a Teres. For lots of money the Schroeder gives you a wonderful product. I used this forum to gather some of my research on new products. I'm glad I did. My prefernces are conclusive, for now. Regards.
Pontus,I am happy to see a real insight into the psychology of "The goings on here".Your points,to me are refreshing,and appreciated.Your perspective is a lesson to me,and any others of open mind.Thanks!
Dear friends: I think that the problem with this forum is that it is a " biased " forum.
Here exist too many Fan Clubs with all the problems and close-in limitations of any Fan CluB: Teres Fan Club, ZYX Fan Club, Schroeder Fan Club, deaf people cartridge Fan Club, VTA Fan Club, inaccurate " equalizers " Fan Club, horns Fan Club, etc....
All these Fan Clubs stay with the same old paradigms and when any one of them confront a new paradigm, this one is like a " evil/devil " one and stay away, with out think about, from that " devil ". This is not a mature position and does not help to the development of the quality music/sound reproduction.
++++++ " You take a comment from somebody that you don't know, with absolutely no detail or supporting evidence and hold it up as fact. " +++++++
This was what Teres post: so, Wildwildwes is only " somebody ", because is not an active member of the Teres Fan Club. Very sad to " hear " this opinion.
Teres I'm not against your TTs, I have a lot of respect for you like a product designer. You choose your trade-off criteria design. As you know I already " heard " one of your TTs ( I'm not repeat what I already post about ) and I heard severals heavy mass all-metal TTs, ( in the same conditions ) almost all beats yours or almost any wood/acrilyc TT design. The Wildwildwes post only confirm my statement about.
Dear Teres, you are heavy biased through your design it is almost imposible to have a civilized dialogue about, please do it a favor: buy an Acoustic Signature Final Tool
TT ( third from the AS TT line ) and do a private ( only you ) evaluation against any of your TTs, this is the only way where yo can break your old paradigms.
+++++ " As Lugnut mentioned, cartridge/arm synergy is vital. With UNIverses on the TriPlanar VII and Schroeder Reference we had to A/B the same track 5 or 6 times before anyone would say a word. They were that close. This didn't happen with any other comparisons we made, 30 seconds was often enough. " ++++++
This is a Doug post, who is one of the: ++++ " group of experienced audiophiles " ++++++ Doug, btw no one of those tonearms are my cup of tea.
The A/B evaluations with LP are not of good value: when you play a track you have to wait between 12 to 24 hours for the vinyl track return to its original condition.
This group evaluations had a great fun but poor value, there are conscience or inconscience bias presure between the group members: the group force to any one to choose what they want or what they think.
Any serious evaluation have to be made individually, this is a must, with any external opinion till you do your invidually evaluation: this have a great value.
30 seconds was often enough: in 30 seconds you only know that both item sounds different and that one of them impress you more than the other, but don't really tell you which is better and why is better. For your individually evaluation will conclusive you have to do the evaluation in the " long run ", it is the only way for to have a great value opinion, other way you have a poor value opinion. I give an example: when I start in this forum I post that the Shelther 901 was on the high fidelity side and not as a high end top performer, Doug was angry with my statement but 3 to 4 months later he agree on that subject.
I always feel that I'm in a fight against you all. Any of the threads on this forum it is not a contest: why you put on this way, always ?, it is not important who win or who is right: what is important is what all of us could learn on any subject in music favor, that's all.
I think that all of us can do it a favor: try to post un-biased opinions. I know that this is more easy to say that to do but I think that we all have to try and in this way everybody wins.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Just so that everyone here knows my situation with regard to the products tested recently and referred to here I offer the following. I do not own nor plan to buy a Teres turntable. I have been critical of Teres in another thread but overall believe it to be a superior design. I love the 360 as it incorporates many of the features alluded to in Raul's preferences. It is a glorious sounding table IMHO. I don't own or plan to own an Illustrious but have a lot of experience with one. I don't own a Schroder, Triplanar or Graham arm nor do I plan on purchasing one. I don't own a ZYX or Lyra cartridge and don't plan on purchasing one of these either. I don't have a horse in this race or a dog in this fight. Group pressure simply didn't exist here and I'm about as immune to it as one gets. Of course, I really couldn't be insulting of any of the gear we listened to because it's all really good and much better than my own. I will concede that perhaps this group likes/seeks similar end results and if this is a bias then every person that posts to these threads are biased. We know what we want. It's just how do we get there from here. I was invited to this event because kind people believed it would be an experience I would enjoy and appreciate. I enjoyed myself more during this long weekend than I ever have before in auditioning any other audio components. I appreciate what I was privelidged to participate in because I know how rare this opportunity really was. My personal analog gear consists of a Linn LP12/Ittok/Sumiko Blue Point Special. Obviously I'm not in the same league as the other attendees but I've been in this hobby longer than most, never bailed on the vinyl format and have listened to most of the upper end analog front ends available. I may have many personal defects but my hearing is very good and my audio memory is better than most. In my system and with my income I would order a Schroder 2 and purchase a Sumiko Celebration and mount it on my Linn. I know that this group would approve of my decisions since these items would be a huge leap from where I am now and clearly on the same path toward an eventual Reference and Universe. They would all be glad for me just as I am glad for them with their own personal choices that I firmly believe are on the right path toward audio excellence. I think the only opinions I expressed that were negative was my low opinion of the Illustrious and having a much higher opinion of the other arms over the Graham. That's really not an insult to the Graham at all as it's a fine arm. To my ears I liked what I liked and honestly tried to give an unbiased opinion. Comments like needing to rest a piece of vinyl for 12 to 24 hours before repeating a play would require one to rely on their audio memory over an immediate A/B or either have multiple copies of the same recording. Even then we all know that records of later manufacture are likely less likely to be a good as an earlier pressing which would lead to even more, "yeah, but's". We did do extended listening with each combination after critical evaluation. Sure, we didn't have the luxury of having something playing for a couple of weeks and then make a change. Even that method is subject to criticism as we all know with the "your ears got used to it" blather. Believe what you want to believe but the group tried really hard to be honest in my estimation. Doug owns a Triplanar and talked about the merits of the Schroder. Steve owns a Triplanar and ordered a Schroder after this audition and probably will keep his current arm. One man is buying a 360 and another is likely going to do a custom upgrade of his Teres from its current configuration. Still, another is jumping off the audio treadmill and saying enough is enough. I'm staying put where I am even though everything we auditioned is a giant leap up from where I am.
...when I start in this forum I post that the Shelther 901 was on the high fidelity side and not as a high end top performer, Doug was angry with my statement but 3 to 4 months later he agree on that subject.
That's pretty funny. When exactly did I express this "anger". Please post a link to this ferocious post, I want to read it again. (If you have trouble finding it, try a search of your imagination.)
I always feel that I'm in a fight against you all.
That's your choice Raul, it's what you enjoy.
Example: You just criticized the 901. On another thread today I criticized the 901 and you jumped in to defend it! Here's a link if anybody cares to see another example of your attention-whoring hypocrisy:http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1080416376&openflup&33&4#33
You obviously care nothing about audio or helping others, or you wouldn't call the 901 a mediocre cartridge here while encouraging someone to buy it over there. How truly sad.