Teres still the way to go?

Thinking about going with a Teres 255 again (I've owned one before and loved it). Just wanted to see if there is anything else I should consider in the same price range. Thoughts?
No, the Teres tables have been determined to be a poor choice to acheive true audiophile quality.

This is a link to a new king of the hill in terms of being the very best in analog sound reproduction!

Ultimate Analog Source
LOL, Kurt. What I hoot. I may have to get one to play the records I trashed in the 60's.
After the obvious first choice of the van, Teres still makes a good product, but I would seriously check out their Direct Drive models. I heard them last year in Denver, and I think they are the future, but ymmv...



I didn't see the thread about tables in the $2000 - $3000 range...I could have piggy-backed on that thread.

I also didn't know about the upcoming Galibier Serac. I'll be interested to hear how that compares to the "low end" Teres.
You say you HAD one. There must be a reason you don't have it now.
I needed cash to pay for my last semester of grad school - that's the only reason I sold off my system.
I guess we might all find ourselves in the position of a trapped coyote at some point and do what is necessary to survive. That is why Audiogon exists - I would hold out for a Galibier Serac.
Nick why did you need to graduate, you were smart enough already !

Do you think you'll have time now to make it to one of our music nights?
Albert, I'm working on it. I accepted a position with Accenture and haven't been in the Metroplex on a Tuesday night in months.
I would hold on for the Serac too.
I think the Serac will be a fantastic table for around $2200 with no arm and around $300 more with the Rega. I believe Thom is working out a deal to possibly bundle another higher quality arm as an option for a little more.

As far as costs go, don't forget that there is an additional $400 charge for shipping and a custom case - so that makes it a little more expensive (but still a bargain)

I couldn't wait until the release, and bit the bullet cost wise and went for a Raven One. If the Serac were available, I'd already own one. Plus Thom is the kind of person you want to do business with, on every level.
Any insight on when the Serac will actually become available? Thom?

grad student with Teres and friends with mr porter
already had to make tough choices
I see a bright and a fine sounding future, congrats
$400.00 for shipping and a custom case ? How can that be justified, especially since it's not coming in from outside the country ?
I'm not sure there is a hard delivery date for the Serac. In my conversations with Thom he has been extremely busy of late and balancing a few different projects. Also, I know he is intent on making sure every inch of the Serac is up to his quality standards, It could be 6 weeks or 6 months (my words not Thom's), no matter to me, I'm waiting.
I'm guessing that the shipping cost posted on the site are most likely based on the much heavier Gavias and Stelvios. The boxes my Gavia came in are definitely ones to hang on to for life. Let's see. About $8k for my Gavia. . . Yeah, I'll pay $400 to ensure it is packaged properly and arrives safe and sound.
Also, I know he is intent on making sure every inch of the Serac is up to his quality standards

Thom is a stickler for getting it right. When I committed to my Gavia (it was still called Quattro Alu at the time), I wanted it in black anodized. It took Thom's anodizer several attempts to achieve the quality level he demanded.

I've had the opportunity to trial the tonearm that Thom is likely to be offering and it runs the Triplanar very close at a fraction of the price.
Red, you sure know how to torment a guy. Have any more insights?
More insights? I guess so (grin). I was talking regularly with Thom over about 18 months since committing to the Gavia. So I have heard a fair amount about the work he's done on selecting the Serac motor and the base design.

The bearing and drive architecture are the same as used on the other Galibiers. I think he's still working through a few alternatives for the finish to the base. My guess is he could ship Seracs fairly soon, however I think he wants to be totally happy with a finalized design before he starts shipping tables.

The best way to get up to speed with the Serac is to get in touch with Thom. He's a really approachable guy and, who knows, the more people hassling him about the Serac might just hasten its progress!

Note that everyone who has a Galibier is absolutely delighted with their purchase and hasn't posted a word of criticism. That's not coincidence - it's because of Thom's high standards, honesty and hard work. And you don't see used Galibiers up for sale either.
Can you give more info about the "upgraded arm" (is this the Vivid-two?). What type of design is it? What carts mate well with it? Given the "turntable package" what carts would be appropriate (Denon 103-R, XYZ Bloom, etc?)

My previous analog setup was a Teres 255 / Origin Live Silver / Shelter 501 mk II. Given this baseline, (in theory) how would a Serac compare?
It's the Artisan - a rolled aluminum arm tube, gimbal bearing, adjustable VTA and azimuth with magnesium headshell. It's due to be launched in May. I've been working with Thom evaluating a pre-production sample.

I heard the Teres 255 in Colorado and I rate the Galibier motor controller ahead of the Teres. You get better dynamic attack, tighter, extended bass and very little surface noise intrusion.

The Artisan seems to do pretty well with most carts. I've only tried it with a Dyna XX-2 (excellent), Koetsu Black and an Empire EDR.9 (very enjoyable). I believe Thom has been very pleased with his trials with a 103R and a Dyna 20X. I would describe it as very honest, in that it doesn't flatter or apologize for the limitations of the cart or table.

The OL Silver is a good arm, it's very dynamic with lashings of fast bass, however like many cast aluminum arms, it has a slight HF tizziness, lacks subtlety and has a slightly gray tonal coloration. The Artisan is more neutral and has superior micro dynamics - you don't just feel the power of the performance but also the emotion. Thom has described the Artisan as being close to the Triplanar in character.

My personal experience confirms that you should buy the best table you can afford, then the best arm and use whatever's left of your budget for the cart (assuming you already have a good phono stage and RCM).

The Serac/Artisan combo will be a giant killing combo (it will beat the Raven One which retails at $5k) and I would suggest either the Empire EDR.9 ($160) or Dyna 20X ($650) would be great companions. The Dyna XX-2 is stunningly enjoyable, but at $1750 it might be an indulgence.
Flying Red,

I am a TW owner and have my biases. You have yours as well. But, stating something WILL be anything makes no sense to me. I would state that should be in the same performance league, or should compare very well with..... Our absolutes only result in insults, which neither of the above manufacturers endorce. In fact, I have heard them speak highly of each others products.
Hi guys,

I've been a bit of a "tease" over the past months with the Serac, and for this I apologize.

The seemingly trivial act of finishing the base has taken me down more than one path. I've met some interesting folks along the way - including the fellow who does the clear coat finishing on Avalon speakers - someone whom I lovingly refer to as "Dr. Paint".

The past six months have presented me with more than one distraction - not related to things "Galibier", and hence my mis-estimation of progress in taking the Serac project over the finish line.

I'm in sunny Phoenix, Arizona this weekend, taking care of some family business - to return to the Front Range of Colorado on Tuesday.

Before leaving for Phoenix, I finalized the Serac's finishing concept which will allow me to complete the base drawings and submit them to my machinist.

After going round and round, my first idea will be implemented - a 7 layer affair with the same shape as the Gavia and Stelvio, with the even numbered layers being 1/8" (about 3mm) narrower - so that the base gives the appearance of having 3 channels routed around it.

It's a nice architectural feature and neatly sidesteps the problem of what to do with the MDF seams. Sealing and hiding MDF seams on a flush surface is quite the challenge - having caused the folks at Avalon Acoustics no end of grief as they worked to finish their 4" thick speaker baffles.

Getting to the point where the ledges formed by these channels could take paint properly was the main challenge, but now that we've resolved this, we're good to go.

I'll update the Serac product page until we actually have the bases in progress - perhaps 10 days from now.

Thanks for your patience. It wasn't my intent to drag this project on for so long.

I have some fascinating prototyping whirling through my head, and bringing the Serac to physical reality has been the necessary pre-condition for this work.

Thanks, Thom. I'm looking forward to seeing (and hearing) the Serac. I think that the Serac (w/ Anvil), tonearm, and recommended cartridge may be an interesting offering to me. We'll have to see if our timelines match up. I do have to say that I did love my Teres and would gladly own one again. IMHO, it was a beautiful thing to see and hear.
Tom -
Can you give us a realistic date when the Serac will be ready for sale? Please be realistic as there are many people who are waiting for it (I have been waiting for over one year). Will you be showing a prototype at the HE Show in NYC?
Hi Aronsss,

I don't want to hijack this thread, and I promise to update the Serac status in the coming week.

Having just returned from family business in Phoenix, my first task is to submit the final Serac drawings to my CNC woodworker. He is one of my few dependable suppliers (in terms of delivering on time), so I should have some reliable estimates to publish in the next 7 days.

It has not been my intention to be such a "tease" about this project, and I truly appreciate your patience.

Thom @ Galibier

You are welcome to post any information in this thread you see fit. I am looking for options to weigh against a Teres 255 and the Serac is something I will consider. I like the idea of buying an analog "system" (components with proven synergy) and the Serac (w/ Anvil, arm, and appropriate cartridge) may hit my sweet spot in terms of price / performance.

Like I've mentioned before, I've loved my Teres (and also loved the reaction of my guests who first gaze upon the wood base & lead-loaded acrylic platter). It will be a difficult decision when the time comes to pull the trigger.
Any updates, Thom? Just curious.
Final drawings are complete and being delivered to the machinist in the morning. That pesky income tax season put a slight damper on my plans.

If this fellow holds true to past form, we'll be seeing bases ready for priming and painting in two weeks.

Thom @ Galibier
For those following this thread, Thom has posted more info on the Serac on the Galibier site. Can't wait until they ship and reviews start to surface.

I'm still waiting to pick up the bases. As soon as they land, I'll snap some quick photos (saving better ones for later) and will update the Serac page with them.

I'm still working on some additional packages for the Serac and will post those on the Serac page. Thanks for hanging in there ...

As a means of clarification to some observations made above, I just received a price quote for shipping a Gavia to Singapore.

All crated up, it tips the scales at 225 pounds. The shipping estimate for door to door delivery is $650. Landing at the Singapore airport is about $100 less. Of course, customs duties are extra.

I'm pleasantly surprised by this number, as it exceeds the cost of landing one in the UK by only $175 ... this after a round of fuel surcharges by the major shippers.

Thom @ Galibier

All crated up, it tips the scales at 225 pounds. The shipping estimate for door to door delivery is $650.
Aah, the downside of a mass-loaded design. :)

What's going on with the Serac? I see the pricing has increased by about $1k. Any updates?
I went with another Teres!!!

I guess you could call it a "Teres 245 on steroids"

- Cocobolo base
- Cocobolo armboard
- Cocobolo clamp
- Solid acrylic platter
- Verus motor

I'll be mounting an Origin Live Silver mk III and a Denon 103R. I hope the cocobolo will match the cocobolo trim on my GMA Callistos. I'll post my thoughts after I receive it.
any thoughts on the versus motor as compared to the tape/mylar drive belt?
I'm going to give a response that may be a first in Audiogon history:

I'm going to admit that I don't think I'll be able to provide any useful comparative comments.

When I receive my table (which should be this Friday), I'll be using a different platter, different arm, and a different cartridge with the Verus motor. As a matter of fact, everything about my system will be different (including the room). Other than fit & finish, ease of use, and "quirkiness" comments, I don't think any sonic comparisons would be anywhere close to accurate / relevant. If someone in the Dallas area has a Signature motor and would like to bring it by to compare, I would be happy to arrange a shoot out.

Plus, it's been nearly a year since I last spun something on my monkeywood 255. I trust Swampwalker is still taking good care of my baby. :)
Hi Nick- Your baby is just fine. Almost all grown up with a Schroeder M2 arm now. I'm curious why you went with the solid acrylic platter? Does Chris consider it a better match with the Versus motor?

Teres is changing their product line. The bad news is they aren't making 255s or 265s any more - those models are being replaced by the Teres 260. I found this out when I called with the reluctant intent to go *way* outside my budget and order a 265.

The Teres 260 uses the same base as the 255 and 265, however it uses a new black composite platter that they prefer to the 255 acrylic platter (and comes really close to the 265 hardwood platter). Like the 255 and 265 platters, the new 260 platter is lead loaded. The Teres 260 is also furnished with the Verus Motor.

Since they are going through these model changes, Chris had an old solid acrylic platter still in stock and put together a package for me that I couldn't refuse (and kept me much closer to my budget).

Not to put words in his mouth, but I believe Chris feels that lead damping in a platter is not as valuable when using the Verus Drive compared to the value received from the lead-damping with a belt drive motor. In theory, the flywheel effect is not as critical with a motor like the Verus.

Plus, the new black composite platter gives me an easy upgrade path when I get the itch (and I'll probably keep the solid acrylic platter for comparison). Bottom line, I traded down on the platter for a potentially synergistic upgrade with the new motor. I believe this combo will outperform a 255, but even if it just comes close I'll be more than satisfied.

I would be curious to hear your impressions. For me the Verus was a non-starter from the get go. I own one of the first batch of Teres 265 tables. I tried the Verus motor but had to return it to Chris as it was not compatible. The original 265 platters did not have seamless edges - there are ridges from the joints. Every time the rim drive would rotate and hit a joint it would be extremely audible (it sounded like rumble). The best analogy I could give is that it was like driving your car and continually hitting speed bumps. Chris mentioned that he eventually veneered the edges of the 265 platters so that there is no seam. If I want to experiment with the Verus again it would take either Chris reworking my 265 platter or swapping for the 260 composite.

I actually sent Chris an email yesterday asking him which he thought would be preferable - the 265 platter with the standard motor or a 260 platter with the Verus drive. I'll post his response when I hear back from him.

Ken Golden
Interesting. I have not been keeping up on my Teres conditions.
Santa came today!!! Well, it was actually the FedEx delivery truck. He brought one large box with 3 smaller boxes inside - a box for the base, arm board and clamp, a box for the platter and a box for the Verus motor and controller. The ancillary parts / pieces were found in the packing between the boxes.

If you haven't seen any of Chris' work in person, I strongly suggest you find a local Teres owner for a viewing. The first box I opened contained the base, arm board, and the clamp - all in cocobolo. I was floored. I thought my previous monkeywood base was beautiful. IMHO, the current production cocobolo bases look 3x better. I really wasn't expecting to be as impressed as I was - the craftsmanship is amazing and the finish is stunning. Once I get the rest of my system in, I'll post pictures. However, I implore Chris to contact Albert Porter and have him shoot some pictures of the Teres line (I'm even willing to model my system). While the current photos on the Teres site are good, they don't convey the depth of beauty of the woodwork. Oh, the clamp now has a black "knob" rather than the silver finish of old. Very sexy.

The next box I opened contained the solid acrylic platter. This platter is crystal clear all the way through, and really allows you to see the wood grain underneath. I was (pleasantly) surprised to see that the platter did not have the white markings on the underside required for the Signature motor. I like this look much better than the lead-loaded acrylic platter. However, when the platter is spinning, from a distance it looks like it stands still. Sonically, this platter may be a step backwards, but visually, it looks much more elegant (IMHO) than the lead-loaded 255 platter.

The final box contained the Verus motor and controller. The motor itself is much more svelte than I expected (it is considerably smaller than the Signature belt-drive motor). The controller is about what I expected from the pictures on the Teres site. The form factor of the motor is excellent, and the controller is relatively unobtrusive (visually). I expected the controller to be much heavier (why I expected the controller to be a 20 lb lead weight, I do not know). I'm going to miss starting and stopping the platter by hand, but that's the price you pay for progress.

After setting up the table and waiting for the platter to settle, I had to fire up the motor (even though I'm still waiting for my arm to arrive). The motor itself is dead silent. However, within minutes, I have 2 minor suggestions for version 1.1 of the controller: 1) the controller housing needs to have more dampening, and 2) there should be an indicator light above each of the speeds to indicate current speed selection. Both "issues" are trivial and are inconsequential or easily remedied.

So, although I haven't been able to evaluate its sonics with my Beatles "Love" 2-LP set yet, visually my new Teres had exceeded my expectations. When I post pictures of my system, you'll see that the wood grain on the arm board makes a face and a body of the "man inside the table who makes the music". I'll post more once the rest of my system arrives and settles in.
Congratulations - I feel quite sure that you will love the sound from your new Teres TT.
Please do let us know when you get it up and running and how it sounds.
Hi Nrenter,
What's going on with the Serac? I see the pricing has increased by about $1k. Any updates?
I just caught your question from November 10th. You might have noticed the diminished frequency of my posts over here, due to several factors:

(a) I've been on the road 4 days/week on average since this past July
(b) The normal catch-up process after the Audiofest (audio shows eat up some 5 weeks in a small manufacturer's year)
(c) I started up my own support forum to build a knowledge repository for Galibier owners

In early December, I'll begin fulfilling the first round of Seracs orders. I'm most appreciative of those who have patiently waited on this project, and your patience will be mightily rewarded.

My apologies if the following sounds like a sales pitch, because it's the polar opposite of what I'm trying to do, which is to reduce demand. I think it's important however that I give you some insight into what's going on, in no small part because of how long the Serac project has taken to clear the trees.

The Serac we took to the RMAF (http://www.avguide.com:80/news/2007/10/19/rocky-mt-2007-galibier-design’s-affordable-serac-turntable/) was the pre-production base. This is the one with paint that was a bit too fragile for my tastes. The first day of the show, my painter delivered the bases for the first production run, BTW.

Shortly after the show, we selected Discovery Cable Plus-4 tonearm cable for the Artisan tonearm. What you heard at the show will be tonally very similar to the Discovery, something I didn't think would be possible with the price target I set for the Artisan. I won't bore you with the details, but if you're interested, you can read more about this decision process at the bottom of this thread: http://www.galibierdesign.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6.

This first round of Seracs is accounted for, and I'm now going through a self-evaluation of how best to handle the Serac moving forward. I'm coming to understand how difficult it is to build and support a more affordable 'table.

This is the first time (apart from Schröder tonearms) that I've felt unable to appropriately set expectations and deliver on them in what I consider to be a timely fashion. Moving forward, I have a much better idea (and hopefully control) of production lead times, but I still have to get smarter with the manufacturing and personal support side of the equation.

It's unrealistic for a Serac owner to expect the same level of hand-holding that a Gavia or Stelvio owner receives. At the same time, a Serac owner needs to have a real opportunity to get the best out of his turntable. This support issue played a large part in my decision to set up the Galibier Forum, and the expanding community of Galibier owners will certainly help to a certain degree.

Unfortunately, the forum will accomplish only so much, and my current focus is on the remaining time constraints.

The labor involved in building and testing a Serac is the same as that of a Gavia. The Serac benefits from the same QC standards as every other Galibier leaving my shop does (receiving a thorough, multi-day break-in and audition). The manufacturing time, support requirements, and price increases in the PVC required for the Serac platter have all combined with the expiration of the introductory pricing to the price increase.

As I consider setting realistic of delivery expectations, I may well suspend taking orders for all turntables for a short period of time later this Winter. I'd much rather catch up, sell fewer 'tables and know that I can deliver support them.

Thom @ Galibier

I appreciate the update. There are worse things in life than success, but that doesn't mean it's an easy thing to handle. Contrats!

Just curious...Do your platters fit a Teres bearing? I'd be interested in performing a platter shoot out sometime in the distant future (later in '08). Anything that could fit a Teres bearing would be welcome.
Greetings Nrenter,

At one time, platters were nominally interchangeable between Teres and Redpoint (my past life with Peter Clark),

By this, I mean that the bearing section which plugs into the platter had the same specification of 1.000" diameter. The support flange on the bearing was 1.5" in diameter.

Early on, Peter and I took to producing a wider support flange (2.5" diameter) along with a counterbore of 2.7" diameter on the underside of the platter to accommodate the flange.

I seriously doubt that as Teres, Redpoint and Galibier have evolved in our thinking over the past 6 years, that swapping platters is an easy thing to do anymore. Perhaps I'm wrong about this.

Thom @ Galibier