Andski - I spoke to an audio buddy last night who was using an ARC VT100 to drive his 88db speakers. He recently changed amps to a 70 watt per channel Berning ZH270 and told me that even at a lower power rating, these amps sound MUCH more powerful than the ARC -- better in every way.
Like the Tenors, the Berning is an OTL design so I suspect the 92db of the Amati's would be an okay load with the 75w Tenor.
no,i allready used amati and tenor 75,(but not in the same system).
tenor can drive amati,but you can not get the magic and soul of tenors.amati really needs mouch more power and control.(also its 4 ohm and not very stable impedance)
my suggestion is .you should try new hybrid tenor for amatis
andrew...i had tenor 75 wi with my piega p-10 speakers that are 89bd and a 4ohm load.the tenors' were not able to drive the p-10s' to my satisfaction and i bought a goldmund 29m amp which is the best amp i have ever heard and effortlessly drives the p-10s' now.i do not believe you will find a better amp,imo.i have not heard the new hybrid tenors which are supposed to be great,however, i would not change for anything now.if you can audition a 29m you won't want anything else.
Tenor-->Amati combination is magical. Clarity, passion, soul. Very satisfying.
I owned both, and used them in the same system. It is very room dependent and type of music. I sold the Tenors since I was in a 1300 square foot loft, with 14 foot ceilings. That's 18,00 cubic feet.
This combo pressurized the entire space, but began falling apart at high (>95+db listening levels) with complex orchestral music. On any form of jazz, or soul, I've only heard better on Mike Lavigne's system.
Since I've moved into a house with a dedicated lsistening space, which is much smaller, I plan on repurchasing the Tenors, probably the 75 wp. I am aware of the 150 Hybrids, which are the choice for the Amati's if you have a really big space, or listen REALLY loud.
Either way, I think you owe it to yourself to listen to the Tenors with the Amati's -- sonically, and aesthetically, the combo cannot be beat (IMO).
Should read 18,000 cubic feet.
In addition, compared to the P-10s, the Amati's are much more efficient. Those last 3.5 db make a big difference to keep the amp/speaker combination in a more comfortable operating range.
Bwhite- The Berning is not a true OTL since is has a transformer inbetween the tubes and the speakers- hence making it NOT an output transformer less amp. There is a big difference, the magic of an OTL can not be rivaled in the right system.
I was looking at the sonus faber web site and they weren't too specefic, but if these speakers do in fact have 92dB and are a 4 ohm load it may be a stretch for the amps. If you listen to complicated music, or listen loud and want dynamic's it isn't going to happen if your room is remotely large. I think if you could wait the 150s would be ideal. Having heard the 300hp(which is essentially a bridged 150, just with twice the power) I don't think any one could go wrong with these amps, all of the magic of the 75 OTL's with effortless power available.
Tireguy - Very interesting. I do not own the Berning. What I gathered from the user and the website is that the Berning was an OTL.
Closer reading of the Berning website shows me this:
The ZH270 takes advantage of new technology in order to eliminate the audio-output transformer. The application of this technology is the subject of a pending patent. The ZH270 uses radio-frequency to change the voltage-current transfer characteristics of the output tubes from their normal impedance-plane to one suitable for driving a speaker. The radio frequency impedance conversion is implemented using special high-frequency power-conversion techniques. The high-voltage, low-current tube impedance-plane is changed to the high-current, low-voltage speaker impedance-plane through special transformers at a constant carrier frequency. Because the audio signal is riding on a carrier, it is not subject to the parasitic elements of the transformer that would otherwise distort the audio signal. There is no low-frequency limit for this impedance conversion, and the ZH270 is dc-coupled, with the exception of a small, high-quality, dc-blocking capacitor at the input of the amplifier.
So you may be right. Maybe there are transformers but certainly not used in the way most non-otl amps use output transformers.
Nothing can beat the magic of an OTL in the right system huh? I cannot comment - maybe Kondo would have something to say about that? :)
Hey.. if the Tenor is OTL (and I know it is) then what are those boxes on the back of the amps? Help me here, are those input transformers?
I sold my tenor on Audiogon after hearing Audio Note Kassai
Many thanks to all for your input, I will be auditioning Tenors 75Wp next week.
You need to be very sure that they provide sufficient power for your listening level. The higher powered Tenors might be more suitable.
As a Tenor/Amati owner, I recommend you put the rig on a 20AMP circuit, with power cords suitable for 750W loads, such as the Elrod EPS-3S, Synergistic Des Ref Squared, or the Anacondas. Those Tenors love big cords ;)
Look forward to hear what you think.
BWhite to answer your question they are power transformers not output transformers. The Berning in contrast uses a sophisticated high speed switching power supply, no transformer. Two entirely different designs top to bottom to be sure.
Sonically, the Berning is the most transparent "non OTL", tube amp I have ever heard. At least in the traditional sense of the term OTL which is direct coupled from the output tube of the amp to the input of the speaker which on occasion only has a coupling cap. A point to be made is that the ZOTL design of the zh270 is a stepping stone enabling technology without the typical drawbacks of iron which can introduce hysterisis and core saturation limiting performance at the frequency extremes and can be a source of "fatness" in bass performance. With a proper load, nothing can beat a well designed true Class A SET OTL top to bottom. It gets music right, at least to my ears. The Tenor is acknowledged by many to be "the" best of this group although I haven't heard it in a familiar system. I have little doubt about a product when it is so well received by so many. The important factor is not the efficiency of the speaker but its impedance characteristics. 4 ohms is at the bottom end of what an OTL will drive without getting into trouble regardless of how well it is designed.
The Berning is an extraordinary product that can only be appreciated when realized what its design parameters and accomplishments achieve especially in its target price range and the variety of loads it can drive. It is really a tough amp to beat top to bottom under 5K and is quite agreeable to upgrades to enhance its performance well beyond its stock performance. This is NOT a hype product but a true breakthrough in tube amp design. Too bad many maninstreamers won't acknowledge it. The truth is in the listening.