Hi Raul: Thanks for the copious (grin) amount of writing. Your posts were sort of useful, in the sense that they reveal where your assumptions are not grounded in reality.
It seems that you believe that tracking distortion is essentially linear - that a cartridge that can successfully track very heavily modulated groove passages will have lower distortion on less heavily cut groove passages than a cartridge with lower tracking limits.
This is an erroneous assumption. Tracking ability is not linear, the transition between tracking and mistracking is usually quite abrupt. The result is that a cartridge that has higher tracking limits can nonetheless have higher tracking distortion on normally modulated groove passages than a cartridge with lower ultimate tracking limits.
Let me provide some numbers to illustrate this. Shortly after the Lyra Delos was introduced, in 2010 the German magazine Stereoplay conducted a multi-way review and measurement test of 5 different cartridges. These were: Benz Micro Wood SL, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Ortofon Cadenza Red, Kuzma KC2 (made by ZYX), and Lyra Delos.
The measurements were of output voltage, coil impedance and inductance, tracking ability, distortion, low-frequency resonance (in a 13-gram tonearm), cartridge weight, and compliance.
For the purposes of this discussion, we can ignore everything except tracking ability and distortion.
If Raul's view is correct, there should be a direct correlation between tracking ability and distortion.
Let's see what Stereoplay's measurements actually say.
Benz Micro Wood SL: Tracking abilities: 100um, distortion: 0.067%
Ortofon Cadenza Blue: Tracking abilities: 80um, distortion: 0.075%
Ortofon Cadenza Red: Tracking abilities: 100um, distortion: 0.09%
Kuzma KC2: Tracking abilities: 70um, distortion: 0.06%
Lyra Delos: Tracking abilities: 80um, distortion: 0.058%
And we don't see any such correlation between tracking ability and distortion. The Kuzma KC2 has the lowest tracking limits of the group, but shows the second-smallest distortion performance after the Delos (which itself has lower tracking limits then the Cadenza Red or Benz Micro Wood SL).
If we look at the two models from the same manufacturer, the cheaper Ortofon Cadenza Red has better tracking ability than the dearer Blue, but the overall distortion reverts to the order of the pricing. And if anyone claims that higher tracking would normally result in lower distortion, but happened to be canceled out by other factors in the individual cartridge designs, well, that is also a valid observation, because it tells us that the relation between tracking ability and distortion is weak enough to be buried (or reversed) by other design factors.
In another test years earlier, Stereoplay compared the Helikon SL to the standard-output Helikon, two models which obviously had much in common with each other.
Lyra Helikon SL: Tracking abilities: 70um, distortion: 0.09%
Lyra Helikon: Tracking abilities: 80um, distortion: 0.10%
Despite showing lower tracking limits, the Helikon SL shows less distortion, while the better-tracking standard-output Helikon has higher distortion. Admittedly the differences are small, but again we don't see a correlation between improved tracking ability and reduced distortion.
hth, jonathan carr |
Dear Jcarr: +++++ " This is an erroneous assumption.... " ++++
could be and could be not.
Stereoplay measurements can be " perfect" ones or not to " perfect " and in the other side we have several kind of " distortions " that wee normally don't see it through measure tests, what I mean: we are not measuring the right kind of distortions or the tools to emasure can't do it.
I posted at least an example where two similar stylus assembly in the same cartridge performs with different tracking abilities and sounds " different " too: tiny differences.
I don't have gold ears, I'm a " normal " listener but I'm traines by my self to be aware of some kind of distortions at different links in the system audio chain and I can detect some kind of " sound " that you can't because you don't know what to look for when I know because my self training. That's why I asked you : what to look for when you posted:
+++++
the suspension's fulcrum point will shift position, depending on what the frequency being reproduced is. This won't necessarily sound bad, and some cartridges are designed like this. But it certainly isn't accurate. " ++++
non-accuarte, the question is: what have I to hear to know that exist that unaccuracy in the cartridge design?. I receive no answer about.
JC, you have and live in a highly desired position been a cartridge designer because you can make easyly some tests to confirm or not what we are discussing here ( remember that this discussion is not if you or me are right. I don't know you but what I'm looking is to improve my knowledge level. ):
you can take a Delos sample with that 80 um on traking hability and modified two other Delos samples to have one with 60um and other with 100um an make different kind of tests that can corelate traking ability with distortions and of course through listening tests try to be aware to find out if it at normal recording velocities you can hear tiny differences or no one at all.
I think that you not only are in that privileged position to do it but you have the right knowledge level, skills and tools to do it along the " ideal " LP's tracks to do it.
This cartridge tracking habilities audio subject seems to me similar as what could be happen in a car in specific to its suspension/tires and different suspension quality designs and how different cars performs on the road. You can be sure that exist differences because that car tracking habilities on demanding roads as in not so demanding ones.
As with a car what we want in a cartridge stylus tip is that always stay in touch with the grooves/road even at microscopic level, if not common sense tell me ( certainly not to you. ) distortions are generated.
I think that you have the right " light " to really put a real light down this audio subject through first hand tests. If you decided to do it not only me but the audio community will appreciated.
Stereoplay tests put some uncertainly " light " but IMHO not a definitive and absolute answer.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
An audiophile, speaking to one of the world's premier phono cartridge designers: I don't have gold ears, I'm a " normal " listener... ... but, ...I can detect some kind of " sound " that you can't because you don't know what to look for... False modesty and a forked tongue, all in one sentence - ROFL. *** This cartridge tracking habilities audio subject seems to me similar as what could be happen in a car in specific to its suspension/tires and different suspension quality designs and how different cars performs on the road. You can be sure that exist differences because that car tracking habilities on demanding roads as in not so demanding ones. An analogy which demonstrates Jcarr's and my point nicely. For "tracking ability" on extreme terrain, a Jeep Wrangler, Army Hummer or Land Rover Defender have few equals. They motor happily through obstacles that would stop or even seriously damage normal cars. Try driving the family sedan over a boulder-strewn mountain pass or through deep water, soft sand or 12" of mud or snow. Forget spare tires, you'd better have a spare car. But that doesn't make the Jeep, Hummer or Land Rover superior performers for normal driving conditions - just the opposite. Their long-travel suspensions, huge ground clearance and massive, heavy-duty frames *necessarily* impair performance on normal roadways. In city driving, on freeways or along paved country roads, any decent sedan or coupe will track and handle far better than the extreme vehicles, and be more comfortable too. Great example of why a machine that's optimized for extreme conditions *cannot* also be optimal for more typical conditions. Thanks! |
I'm in the camp that says being able to track records designed to be an obstacle course does not mean better performance in general.
Thank god Redbook CD specifications put practical if not ideal limits on what is possible so we don't have to worry about negative consequences of going to extremes there. :^) |
Dear Jcarr: I think that the trouble ( in this regards. ) with measurements that can relate cartridge tracking abilities with distortion levels is to aisle that relationship ( for sure. ) to make specific measurements down there. Right now I can't " imagine " how to do it and not only to aisle it but how to measure and where ( example: inner grooves, different recording velocities, choosed tonearm, choosed LP tracks and the like. ).
I told you that the main subject here is to learn and not who is right or not.
I want to think that tracking cartridge abilities is important for you ( not your main target as you said it. ) and you posted some advanatages about:
++++ "
to improve the tracking performance, for example by designing a wire suspension with a longer-than-normal free length. This has the side-effect of lessening the intensity of the loads on the tonearm, which can seem to be a benefit if the tonearm has a resonance-prone mechanical structure, and can improve the tracking of a tonearm .. " +++++
so that tell me that cartridge tracking abilities is something to take care ( maybe a little with more deep interest. ) on cartridge design: going to extremes?, well that is a designer privilege.
This is my answer to that information you posted:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1381113244&openflup&44&4#44
I hope you really take a self challenge on the cartridge tracking abilities through your Delos design. I could think that Scan-Tech can build those 3 cartridge samples where you " can't now " which cartridge comes with wich ( 60um, 80um and 100um. ) tracking abilities.
Of course that always been there how to aisle the tracking(distortion relationship but even if that can't do it for sure the exercise I'm proposing you could give you ( and for all of us. ) some important information on cartridge design that today is not very " clear " and where could be land to explore and land to improve by design the enjoyment of MUSIC reproduction at home.
We audiophiles can't do it, we can´t tweak our cartridges to improve its tracking abilities, only the designers as you can do it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Mapman: ++++ " to track records designed to be an obstacle course does not mean better performance in genera.... " ++++
I posted three times here and in other threads this sentece that you certainly did not read, here again:
" EVERYTHING THE SAME "
Regards and enhjoy the music,
R. |
Thanks Doug for a very well reasoned and clear post. Your contributions on this forum are much appreciated. |
Peter, it hurts to denigrate my Landy that way, but it is what it is. Hope he wasn't listening. His ex-wife (an RX-8) would never let him hear the end of it! ;-)
|
JC, I just bought a Lyra Kleos and along my Helicon/Clavis DC , a Titan i ( from a friend ) and the Akiva one the comparison/evaluation could be " full ".
All those are part of your cartridge designs and you already know that the Akiva is the champion on tracking abilities ( at least my sample. ) even that that is not your main target ( and that comes in a plastic body. ) but it's not only a top tracker but a top quality sound reproducer/performer over other top Lyras. I will see how the Kleos compares against.
R. |
Dear Dougdeacon: I don't want to deviate the attention on the main subject but I do this time only to be clear and for there been there no wrong misunderstood:
++++ " .I can detect some kind of " sound " that you can't because you don't know what to look for
False modesty and a forked tongue, all in one sentence ROFL. " ++++++
to know what to look for ( in any audio subject and especially on hard one. ) you have to be trained by your self. If Jcarr has that training good. What's the problem down there?
For all of us audio is a daily learning proccess. Do you think that an audio item designer put on the market a new and improved item just for money?. A serious designer ( as Jcarr who cares about MUSIC. ) put new products on the market ( as the Atlas cartridge ) because he learned " something " that helps to improve the MUSIC sound reproduction.
Do you think that any single designer knows everything on what they are doing? do you think that they have nothing to learn by it self? yes?: please introduce us that audio item designer?
No one, including you and me, knows everything about everything in audio, period.
Btw, do you read it somewhere that some car tires give you not only better tracking abilities under any condition but at the same time helps to reduce your gasoline consume?, think about, think at micro stage and not macro stage. ( You too Peterayer.)
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
The Telarc 1812 is not even a particularly good reading. If it was a tracking test, it doesn't really reflect how good a cartridge can track at higher frequencies.
It's more of a gimmick recording than much else. |
Dear Bpolletti: Iw onder what are yeally you talking about?
Please enlight me why the Telarc 1812 can't tell you about high frequency tracking?
Btw,, the Telarc recording, as I posted, is more that only a bass tracking/torture test. Maybe your system can't honor it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
As a fact Telarc don't made the 1812 recording as a test one Lp.
R. |
Doug/Peter: Better yet, don't think nothing: to know and to contribute on the subject you have to listen to that recording several times and understand first what is happening down there and then you can have first had experience to make a serious contribution to the tracking cartridge abilities/distortion relationship.
With out those experiences you are only guessing??? with out any help and we need help to learn.
R. |
I posted three times here and in other threads this sentece that you certainly did not read, here again:
" EVERYTHING THE SAME Unfortunately, everything is never the same. Modifying a system to enable extreme behavior in one parameter invariably affects other parameters. To wish otherwise is not engineering - it's fantasy. |
of course that that listening experiences has to do it with 4-5 different top cartridges where at least one can track in full the recording.
R. |
Hi all: I am now out of the office, participating in European audio shows for the next two weeks to introduce my latest "Etna" cartridge design. Besides, I believe that I have already written enough on this particular topic (and backed up my position with measurements supplied by neutral, independent organizations).
Given the notable absence of any worthwhile rebuttals so far, I will now bow out of this thread.
kind regards, jonathan carr |
Thanks as always for your valuable input, Jonathan... bon voyage!
|
Raul, Thanks for your advice. I agree, the purpose of this discussion is to learn about the subject at hand. I once saw a very informative video of what happens on a micro scale to a Formula One racing tire as it heats up at speed. One of the things I learned was that there is no ideal tire tread for ALL road conditions. Specific designs are optimized for different conditions, and that is why extreme performance cars change tires frequently depending on conditions.
I think Doug's car analogy was well explained.
I don't have 4-5 top cartridges to learn about tracking abilities in depth, first hand. I am sorry. That is why JCarr's contributions are helpful. |
Dear Jcarr: +++ " backed up my position with measurements supplied by neutral, independent organizations ++++ " ++++
unfortunatelly not direct related measures: that in precise way showed the direct relationship between tracking abilities and distoriton levels.
you posted somewhere:
+++++ " distortion in a cartridge is caused by physical issues (such as tracking resolution) as well as magnetic, and the better the physical aspects (styli with longer and narrower contact patch, more linear dampers, less body resonances, more complete energy evacuation from the cartridge structure),........ for lower moving mass and reduced tracking distortion. " ++++++
your today position already changed because a few months ago tracking distortion was something more important to you.
Now, you posted this too ( I'm still surprised when I read it due that you are a cartridge designer. ):
++++++ " Lyra's markets has been that to go below 0.5mV (5cm/sec) means that many phono stages will be less than happy. The user may hear problems like noise, grain, insufficient bass response, or in less problematic situations, they may simply not hear the improvement in resolution that the lower-output cartridge should be giving them.................
As far as the cartridge is concerned, lower output is more ideal. Lower output means less metal in the coil windings (copper has a specific gravity of 8-9, which is greater than iron!) for lower moving mass and reduced tracking distortion. Lower output also means fewer coil winding layers, which enables the coils to be of cleaner shape and will improve crosstalk, phase response, and channel matching (cleaner-made coils also look much better).
As a cartridge manufacturer, our problem is that the user may not be happy with the sound, but in most cases they will blame it on the cartridge rather than the phono stage or that they have excessive electrical contact points in the signal cabling system (which seems to work OK with MMs, MIs and high-output MCs), but will impair the sound of low-output MCs. Since no manufacturer likes to hear that users are unhappy, we've shifted our cartridges away from where they were some years ago (0.22-25mV, single-layer coils) to our present level (0.5mV, double-layer coils,..... "+++++
I'm surprised that you knowing that the best quality sound can comes from lower output MC cartridges you shift to higher output even against that knowledge. Seems to me that marketing is more important.
Anyway, sooner or latter we will see more and more better LOMC cartridges with higher tracking abilities and I think you will not be an exception. Time is the best judge.
++++ " any worthwhile rebuttals so far... " +++++
well I think " both sides " because you prove nothing, at least not yet.
Anyway, for me this " discussion " was a learning one in several audio and non-audio subjects.
Stay with your today success and be prepared for the future.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Peterayer: Here I come again because seems to me that both of you still don't understand why my analogy against the audio subject we are discussing. I posted:
++++++" did you read it somewhere that some car tires give you not only better tracking abilities ( on plane and winding road. ) under any condition but at the same time helps to reduce your gasoline consume?, think about. " +++++
well, think about and when you understand why the gasoline consume is reduced you will understand the audio subject I'm talking about.
The Stereoplay measures means and proves almost nothing in the whole audio subject and seems to me that for the posts here and elsewhere the cartridge tracking abilities and its direct relationship with distortion levels were almost never analized even by JC.
Peter: remember Columbus when said: " the Earth is round ", everybody laughing for say the least. Why everybody laugh?
Years ago here on Agon at audiophile level I remember what happened in each ocasion when I " introduce " the DD turntable as a serious alternative or the MM/MI alternative or the active high gain phonolinepreamp ( instead SUTs ) or the naked alternative on DD turntables or subwoofers or tonearm/cartridge relationship or, or, or,...etc, etc:
everybody laugh of me ( including Dougdeacon that in those times was the " oficial " defender of SUTs ( he was using one. ) and todauy all those very well regarded audiophiles speaks the same language I was talking in those times.
So, I know for sure that in the future times and in favor of the MUSIC enjoyment we will see better LOMC cartridges with higher/top tracking ailities including the ones coming from JC.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hi Raul,
20 years from now, maybe you and I will still be playing our copies of the 1812 Overture and maybe a couple of kids that are just being born today will have gotten the vinyl bug and will be playing it too. There is something to be said to seeing the spinning disc as music pours out of the speakers. The cost of vinyl playback equipment however, is way out of proportion to the availablity of new music on vinyl. Today, it's already down to those dedicated few who want to hear the old music how it was once heard by the masses decades ago. In the meantime, today's populace enjoys their music digitally through either headphones or high dollar hifi systems.
It is getting harder for me to find that perfect overhang point when adjusting my tonearm. I need more light and taller legs. After hearing HD Audio last year on a top end hifi system, I imagine one day going that route. To my ears that had all the advantages of vinyl with none of the noise and set-up work. It made CDs sound flat and lifeless in comparison- on the same system! When it comes down to me deciding on a HD DAC or a new cartridge- for the same amount of money- well, I'm kind of not looking forward to that day. |
Raul,
I was never a defender of SUTs, still less the "official" one, whatever that means. Please don't put words in my mouth.
It's true I once used them (as have you). In using them, I learned something of their strengths and weaknesses. I posted what I'd learned when it seemed helpful.
I campaigned neither for nor against them because, as in most things audio, they have their pluses and minuses. SUTs are useful in some systems, less so in others. Those fortunate enough to own $12K+ preamps like your Essential or my Alaap probably do not need them. OTOH, those eager to explore LOMCs on a more limited budget may find that an SUT suits their needs... as I once did. I do not defend SUTs, I defend reasonableness.
As you continue to willfully misconstrue other people's statements, my participation in this thread is no longer indicated.
|
Dear Dougdeacon: Oh that " short " memory!!!
Yes I think is the best you can do.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Toniwinsc: I agree with you. There is no single doubt that digital for we audiophiles ( music lovers. ) is here to stay and with a lot of " land " to improve in the near future.
Even, exist several " old " CD's that are great to listen it and where its analog counterpart ( original or today reissues. ) can't compete with.
For example, take Foreigner 4 ( in both formats. ) or The Wall or Gladiator: in all these sampels and several other ones digital outperforms the analog LPs ( I just bought the today " audiophile " Foreigner 4 just to compare it. ).
I have a modest today/latest digital universal Denon player ( 32/192 DAVCs ) and if you paly a DVDA on it you just can't beleive you are hearing digital, you missed nothing about analog recordings and win sveral improvements on different areas.
Even old digital recorded LPs ( like the Telarc ones. ) outperform the best analog samples.
Of course that not all the Telarc LPs are first rate some are " so so " but the ones that shines are a glorious experience through LP format. Same I can say for the old digital recordings made it by Denon ( first rate. ) but there are other digital labels really bad as: Teldec, some Deutshe Gramaphone or Philips ( I own hundreds of digital recordings on LP. ).
The best analog recording that can compete against the best digital LPs are the D2D and not all these, by-passing the R2R normal tape recording is a huge improvement on the music sound reproduction ( digital permit this. ) of course that LP manufacturers always disagree with those statements and IMHO they do because they are biased through: $$$$$$ and not because really have facts.
There are several areas where digital outperform analog and one of them is in the bass frequency range where lives the music home reproduction foundation.
I think that one of my firsts posts where I said that digital outperforms analog was 4-5 years ago ( maybe more ) and as always when people don't understand the why's just laughed of those posts and I need not to listen trough a dSc digital combo ( 150 K ) but trough a simple units as my today Denon.
+++++ " After hearing HD Audio last year on a top end hifi system, I imagine one day going that route. To my ears that had all the advantages of vinyl with none of the noise and set-up work. It made CDs sound flat and lifeless in comparison- on the same system! +++++ "
I don't have experience with the HD but I know exactly what you mean and agree.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friendsds: The Kleos arrived and is mounted in my system.
Yes, is better than the Skala or Helikon and even Titan but can't compete with the Akiva ( JC design for Linn. ).
The Kleos has clear and transparent highs where the Akiva is close but not at the same level and it's only in this characteristic where the Kleos is above the Akiva.
The Akiva has a tremendous natural rhythm where the Kleos is just lifeless. Everything on sound characteristics are there ( in the Kleos ) but can't transmit the MUSIC emotions, it does not has the glorious easy MUSIC flow reproduction of the Akiva, the Kleos feels as the music has no " continuity " as if it's " fighting " to reproduce the grooves information. I can't explain in other way.
About its tracking abilities the Kleos is the worst one of the " bunch " and maybe that's why I said: " fighting to reproduce grooves... ", instead to feel happy as the Akiva one.
I know ( because JC posted is not his priority. ) that the Akiva JC design is a " faulty " builded cartridge because its truly great ( today unbeatable. ) tracking abilities that was not in the " program ", welcomed " fault " that made this cartridge so good quality performer.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Seems as it time decay in the low part of the high frequencies and midrange is to fast, this I don't detected in the other part of the high frequencies where is very good and extended.
I tested in 3 tonearms and with different impedance loads direct through my active PS and through SUT but the behavior is almost the same.
I have to say that as all Lyras its build quality shines ( beautiful made. ), first rate.
R. |
Raul, Have you given the Kleos any time to break in? Does this even make a difference, in your opinion?
Perhaps you can start a Kleos vs. Akiva thread and have more people respond to this topic as they might not find it in this thread which about the 1812 recording and tracking ability. |
Dear Peter Ayer: My Kleos is already broken, take almost " nothing " for the cartridge been brock.
In the other side, start a thread on Kleos vs Akiva could be interesting but I see a " trouble " , please ask you how many of your audio friends own the Akiva cartridge? and how many Agon threads did you read it about Akiva owners and how many?
Linn Akiva is designed mainly for Linn analog rigs: especially the Ekos tonearm. The cartridge comes with three mounted holes that's a characteristic of Linn tonearm headshell.
Other characteristic is that the Akiva comes with dedicated
wires to be connected directly to the tonearm headsell male connectors and not all tonearms accept it.
To connect my Akiva in my system I have to make a modification changing the Akiva wires female connectors/pins for male ones.
Today the owners of cartridges as Atlas, Ana, LP-S, XV 1t, Goldfinger Statement ad the like I can tell you that even they do not know of the Akiva existence and less heard it.
That's a pity issue because IMHO the Akiva can compete at that so high level quality performance for " penauts " in comparison wiht all those really high cartridge prices$$$$$.
Btw, I don't finish yet with the Kleos, I will try harder trying to achieve better quality performance, I need that the Kleos be more " human ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: Finally my Kleos started to shines and even that is not the best tracker out there is a great quality performer design.
JC made it a splendid job with, congratulations!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Raul,
What on Earth have you been doing ? Is that new TA design of your very own so good that you don´t post anymore ?
You already know that I do care for trackability, for the last 30 years have and will do.
At the highest VTF recommended, my ULTRA tracks 100 um but my AT-ML180/OCC hardly 80 um. The ULTRA performs without issues, especially the midrange is super fluid. The ML180 is also superb but doesn´t quite make the level of the former, namely the mids and highs.
Just a funny irrelevant coincidence ? I don´t think so.
Just curious, does the Entré-1 pass the Telarc test...
Very best regards |
The resurrection is complete 3 posts this month!!! I am curious about a post made by J Carr asking Rauliruegas to say what he heard when a cartridge was loaded down too much or too little. This was the answer I was most looking forward to, but sadly it was not forthcoming.....or maybe I missed it in the mire.
Contrary to everything I have read I have found that at 100 Ohm my cartridge sounds thin and lacking in tone and bass, at about 400 Ohm it sounds just right to me, and at 980 Ohm, seems to lose life and lack "air". Am I dreaming? (Tone arm cable 80pF, Atlas). For me tone is most important, sound stage and depth etc. all come a distant second.
BTW it tracks the FIM 1812 (another version?) ! but I don't like listening to it, there are better recordings of the 1812, without the gimmicks:) |
Where is Raul? I'm quite curious about his tonearm design. |
Hi Guy;s Just received my new copy of the Telarc 1812 & am pleased to advice I had no problems with my rig. Consting of a refurbished Lenco L75, Temaad Merlin Titainium 12'' uni-pivot arm & Ortofon MC25 FL.
Cheers |
