Tekton Double Impact & Comb Filtering


Like many of you, I have been pondering purchasing these speakers but am very curious about the unusual tweeter array. I asked the smartest speaker person that I know (he is a student of Sean Olive) about the design and below is what he had to say.   

"In theory it could work, but the driver spacing means that the crossover point would need to be very low.
He is using the SB acoustics tweeter which is 72mm in diameter, center to center on the outside opposing drivers is around 5.7 inches, which is about 2400Hz. This means that combing would stop between 1/4 to 1/2 of the wavelength (between 1200-600Hz) is where the outside tweeters should start playing nice with each other.
Since he is not using low enough crossover points he has created a comb filtering monster. Now while it's not the great point source that was promised, it's no worse than most line arrays and the combing will average itself out given enough listening distance.

The MTM spacing on the other hand is ridiculous. Hopefully he is cutting the top end off on one of those midrange drivers to avoid combing."

seanheis1
The crossover point for the 6 outer tweeters is very low at 480hz and the center tweeter is 10k to 30k playing as a super tweeter.

No combing effect that I have measured or heard on my pair,Actually they are the best measuring speaker that I've owned in 35 yrs in this hobby.

Kenny.
Sean,

There is some confusion in how the DI's are configured related to crossover points and the "unusual" driver configuration maybe this will help give a better understanding.

Even though these are tweeter transducers the six of them that form the circle, based on what frequencies they handle, radiate acoustically as if they were one six inch mid-range driver.  The transducer in the middle is being used as a tweeter and handles the high end frequencies up to 30Khz.  So, acoustically you have a six inch mid-range driver with a coaxial mounted tweeter which means it functions as a single point source.  Now, by Eric figuring out how to make this work you get all the advantages of a coaxial driver, however the mid-range array weighs close to nothing leading to blazing speed/dynamics/micro-details compared to a regular six inch driver, regardless of what materials it is made out of it cannot be as light in weight.  Yet, you still get not only remarkable transit response, but great control because each driver is small and well behaved.  The closet you could come to this regarding weight/control would be a ribbon or AMT which cannot be used as a coaxial design as a single point source.  Brilliant on his part!

The more I listen to the DI's regarding mid-range and high frequencies they easily rival any panel design/ribbon/AMT I have had in my system and surpass them in low end extension/dynamics and overall macro-dynamics,micro-dynamics and brings out realistic nuances from the music.Truly a magical sounding speaker at any price.


You end up with a speaker that has very good pin point sound stage and vertical dispersion that equals or rivals many speakers that are in a much higher price range.

The only negative I can find overall is the lack of appearance but I did buy a black metallic painted finish and I can easily live with this minor shortcoming in appearance the sound I get more than makes up for this.

Kenny.
  If not mistaken Mcintosh uses a similar looking approach.The tweeters in the DI are very inexpensive,assuming to keep cost down but until I see a break down of what this speaker does,,,
Personally I would avoid any line array design unless listened to  from a relatively far listening distance in a fairly large room.  Even then I am a fan of fewer drivers not more.
Sean,

There is some confusion in how the DI's are configured related to crossover points and the "unusual" driver configuration maybe this will help give a better understanding.
Hi Kenny, thanks for that explanation. It was actually the same explanation that I used when I asked him the original question about the line array and comb filtering. He responded with his own numbers that are in the first post of this thread.   
According to the many posters on this site who’ve actually  listened to the Double Impacts they are unanimous in confirming their superb sound quality. It seems although this speaker has an uncommon driver array ( relatively speaking) the designer knew precisely what he wanted to achieve. Based on owner feedback he certainly has in resounding fashion .
Charles
Sean,

So if you asked your friend about the DI's already knowing pertinent details as I've mentioned why are you wasting our time with this nonsense.

Have you actually listened to these speakers or are you just trying to convince yourself they are not for you.

Just wandering,I go where my ears lead me and really don't care about specs at the end of the day.But I still can't help not measure and test sometimes just to back up what I hear.

Kenny.
Sean,

So if you asked your friend about the DI's already knowing pertinent details as I've mentioned why are you wasting our time with this nonsense.

Have you actually listened to these speakers or are you just trying to convince yourself they are not for you.

Just wandering,I go where my ears lead me and really don't care about specs at the end of the day.But I still can't help not measure and test sometimes just to back up what I hear.

Kenny.
Hi Kenny, since you are being blunt, I will reciprocate. I didn't blindly trust the pertinent details that you've mentioned so I went to my expert to verify those details. He had a different explanation for the tweeter array and comb filtering, which I posted. If you feel like this thread is a waste of your time, then of course don't follow it.     
So does that mean you are going to step up and buy a pair and listen for yourself?
I found it very informative...and I will add that yes a group of guys are stomping their feet in praise of the double impact speaker on this site...npt so much ekse
Sorry my phone speaks for itself...what I was trying to say was not so much on other sites...for me the fact that Tecton hasn't posted any pertinent info using only the same verbage on each speaker,the lack of quality drivers used makes me take pause with scepticism 
I find it to be just another thread of folks that think they know how a product will sound without even listening to the said product.

Proof is always in the pudding of listening and not from hype.

I don't really give a care what speakers you own,I know my budget would allow up to 35k and I barely put a dent in that with the DI's and couldn't be happier.
Just means I will get to retire and have even more listening time with money saved.

Kenny.
Missioncoonery,

I may be stomping my feet to the wonderful sounding music,but at least I can spell the English language.

Just Saying.

Kenny.

@seanheis1,

Can you help us better understand how your expert friend is testing and measuring the DI speaker? I am sure he must have a pair to take measurements of. Did he actually precisely measure all the details he is talking about? I assume he has the crossovers in hand and knows the precise workings and design of it.

Surely he is not speculating and has first hand knowledge?

Oh wait, he has no idea as he Doesn’t know the precise crossover points. His quote proves that in your comments. Oh, he has never touched a DI speaker with his expert hands. Am I correct? Please confirm.
Is is possible that after having an actual set in his possession, and running actual tests, he would come to a very different conclusion? Please comment. 

I have read many of your other posts and think you are a reasoned Agoner. Please comment on the fact that this is all speculation and none of it is factual or helpful to our fellow group of music lovers here. We do have a level of responsibility here when we post. Other audiophiles come here to learn and make buying decisions. We should help, not hurt this process.
Kenny....i think your now wasting our time...just saying lol
Why do normally reasonable people want to hate this speaker when they have never been in the same room with it. Then ignore the fact, 99% of the people who have heard it and/or now own it, absolutely love it? Is it the fact the haters own expensive speakers and the thought that something in this price range is so good, it cuts into their systems' "exclusivity". Are they audio snobs? Wow, I really hope not.
Can you help us better understand how your expert friend is testing and measuring the DI speaker? I am sure he must have a pair to take measurements of. Did he actually precisely measure all the details he is talking about? I assume he has the crossovers in hand and knows the precise workings and design of it.
Grannyring - I am not a speaker designer nor an engineer. My source knows the tweeter used as well as the spacing of the tweeters and box. It appears that he is using math to calculate the comb filtering. If someone can explain why there would be no comb filtering or how he solved that particular problem, I would love to hear.
It has been explained and actually tested by me,the DI's are not intended to be a near field speaker that should be obvious to any reasonably experienced audiophile.But they actually surprised me in sound quality at 6 feet away,I normally set 10ft away in my room.

Out of respect for Eric and other designers of speakers and other components I don't like to publish measurements or crossover points and design,so I will only say so much.

You guys would be surprised in how some highly regarded and expensive speakers actually measure in room.

Kenny.
It has been explained and actually tested by me,the DI's are not intended to be a near field speaker that should be obvious to any reasonably experienced audiophile.But they actually surprised me in sound quality at 6 feet away,I normally set 10ft away in my room.

Out of respect for Eric and other designers of speakers and other components I don't like to publish measurements or crossover points and design,so I will only say so much.

You guys would be surprised in how some highly regarded and expensive speakers actually measure in room.

Kenny.
Ok, he does not have a pair to measure the actual driver distances, determine crossover points, test response, etc.... I guess he is looking at pictures..LOL!

Please own up to the fact that your post is mere speculation and irresponsible at best. 
Missioncoon,

Is it the fact the haters own expensive speakers and the thought that something in this price range is so good, it cuts into their systems' "exclusivity". Are they audio snobs? Wow, I really hope not.

Is this you,

Make me go away.

Kenny.

How is Kenny wasting anyone’s time? He owns the Double Impacts and is very familiar with their sound quality. What is more reliable than this experience? It is rather strange that people who have no direct experience with a product can form such strong opinions based purely on speculation and preconceived beliefs.

In reality there are quite a few audiogon members who’ve posted exceptionally positive comments regarding these speakers. I place far more value on the perspectives and comments from those who have actual listening experience than those who play the role of armchair quarterback. Relying on "math" is no substitute for direct listening to an audio product.
Charles
Charles,

+1 on your intelligent wisdom.

Has been said many times there is no "Perfect" speaker but there is some that come close in the listeners sonic presentation priorities and the only true test is to listen to them in your room,with your system and music.

We can throw math and physics into the equation with any speaker or component and It may be nice to know but still the bottom line is how does it connect the individual to the music.

It's all about the Music is it not.

Kenny.
Grannyring,

+1 on your intelligent wisdom also.

Ok, he does not have a pair to measure the actual driver distances, determine crossover points, test response, etc.... I guess he is looking at pictures..LOL!

Please own up to the fact that your post is mere speculation and irresponsible at best.

I could easily look at pictures of the Jbl 530 as a example and I could speculate that they probably don't sound that good but I have' to heard them and that would be pure speculation.


Kenny.


Kenny...You took a cheap shot at me,totally uncool.I apologized for my phone and its ability to change words.I agree that its how a speaker performs in ones own room,and yes Ive never heard this line of speakers.Call that a disqualifier if you will.The original poster has a legit argument and I thought it was well conveyed,certainly not a waste of time.Having said that from what Ive read(not on this site obviously) that a few things speak loudly..the Double impact fell on its face at the LA show according to most,it has cheap tweeters and drivers,the cabinet is cheap and its visual look is one of a DIY,they have no retail outlets for consumers to audition,they have no customer support really outside if you don't like them send them back,most that have reviewed them say they are good speakers "for the money"but certainly not 30K busters...so I guess im not drinking the Kenny kool aid right now
Obviously you aren't going to believe anything positive the owners of these speakers offer. I'm not sure why you're wasting YOUR time missioncoonery. Is it to straighten all us owners out and convince us our opinions are wrong buying these "cheap" speakers and loving them. How dare we!
I've never heard any Tekton loudspeakers, yet I have a positive opinion of them.  One formed from reading reviews, internet discussion groups and my admittedly small knowledge of loudspeaker design and manufacture.  They seem to be an interesting design, so I don't understand why anyone would object to questions about their design such as the OP's.  The Tekton design elements should be easy enough to explain without personal attacks.
 Agreed , it's great to ask questions about any product and that's what these forums are for However the OP is really not asking a question but throwing the statement out here based on nothing really There is a difference. 

It is a negative comment and not a question. So now the rest of us are asking him to back up his comment. It is his comment as he chose to use quotes from a friend of his.


Onhwy61 ,
I whole-heartedly agree with your comment in regard to asking questions about a product.  However it is without question a different matter to present uninformed conclusions rooted in pure speculation. In my opinion the latter scenario has occurred on this thread. 
Charles 
Please re-read the first paragraph of the OP.  I understand it as a request for information and comments about the loudspeaker and his knowledgeable friend's observations.

He's thinking of buying the loudspeaker.  Do you think the tone of some of the above responses further encourages him?
Agreed , it’s great to ask questions about any product and that’s what these forums are for However the OP is really not asking a question but throwing the statement out here based on nothing really There is a difference.

It is a negative comment and not a question. So now the rest of us are asking him to back up his comment. It is his comment as he chose to use quotes from a friend of his.
Just to clarify, these are not the comments of a friend. I reached out to a well known speaker reviewer and this was his response. He is one of those reviewers who is into measurements. His response put me into a hold pattern on whether or not I should purchase these speakers and I felt like the information was worth sharing and discussing.
Onhwy61,
Read the judgemental comments (from his expert friend) that followed the "question" for example, "comb filtering monster" and "the MTM spacing is ridiculous"
Far from a simple and innocent question. Rather strong and negative assessment from someone with no direct interaction with the Double Impact. This is obviously more than an inquisitive question don’t you think? The entire post should be taken into consideration. 
Charles
seanheis1...This reminds me of Trump supporters who watch only Fox news insisting hes the best there has even been..Id try another site
Just have to introduce politics and Trump to make a point? And CNN is just ideally neutral I suppose ? Come on mission coonery  you can do better.😊
Charles

No,Id say that nailed it...try another site
Oh my what a can of worms has been opened up.


Post removed 
Sorry about digression, but can someone explain comb filtering in layman's terms? I did read up a little about it but still can't "feel" what it means in terms of how it would affect the quality (or quantity) of the music reaching my ears.  Thanks.
Sean,

Just to clarify, these are not the comments of a friend. I reached out to a well known speaker reviewer and this was his response. He is one of those reviewers who is into measurements. His response put me into a hold pattern on whether or not I should purchase these speakers and I felt like the information was worth sharing and discussing.

So which one is it or would you like to continue deceiving us.

Folks the DI's are a very good sounding speaker that honestly have no right to sound as good as they do especially at their price point.
Yes they utilize cheap,average,off the shelf drivers that throw any misconceptions in speaker design right out the window,The magical sound comes from design implementation,crossover design and high quality passive components in the crossovers.
Which I've upgraded mine much more with even better sounding passive parts and wiring.

Can The the DI's honestly be called a world beating speaker,I would say no they aren't but they definitely sound better to my ears than much more expensive speakers I've owned or heard.

Disclaimer,I much prefer a system pairing of equipment that is natural,not fatiguing and real sounding,I don't like most high end "Hi Fi" speakers that I've actually heard,they may have a tiny bit more detail,extension and pin point soundstage that you can reach out and touch and may have a touch more air.

Kenny.
I have (the proverbial) no dog in this fight. Tekton has gone from a smallish company with a limited amount (and affordable) speaker line to a company with many complicated (and somewhat expensive) larger line of loudspeakers. Throw in the optional mods makes it even more confusing. It seems as if the different levels somewhat overlap each other. I would like to listen to Tekton but I know of no one in my area that has them. A dealer network would be nice but I'm sure that would substantially raise the prices. I too, have some concerns about Tekton. Especially hearing how they may have performed poorly at the LA Show. I'm not sure about this as I don't know all the details of that event. I don't believe that some of the posters are being highly critical here. They just want some answers to what appears to be an incredibly hyped product. I have no doubt that the DI owners sincerely believe in the performance of the product, but should not be quite so defensive of the "new baby."IMO.
Kalali,

Here is a simple explanation of comb filtering that may help you,

Comb Filtering: This is basically a delayed version of a primary signal that is produced when two or more loudspeakers or drivers are playing the same signal at different distances from the listener. In any enclosed space such as a music or theater room, listeners hear a mixture of direct and reflected sound. Because the reflected sound takes longer to reach our ears, it constitutes a delayed version of the direct sound and a comb filter is created where the two combine at the listener. The extent of its audibility depends on how lively the room is to allow the reflected sounds to average out the overall response. Note that this interference may be constructive (additive) or destructive (subtractive).

Basically this why the DI's have the crossover design that they do.

Kenny.
Mr_m,

You bring up some very revalant points that I certainly cannot argue with.

In your opinion do you think that Tekton is not quite ready,as a whole,for primetime.

Kenny.
I have not heard but does not surprise me that they sound good. Many less expensive speakers including many vintage will likely sound better than ever if run off proper good quality modern electronics and amplification. My current stand is I see no need for most to drop megabucks on speakers in order to get highly satisfying sound. In many cases, if matched and set up well, I suspect cheap speakers could very well even outperform others costing way more. A lot depends on user expectations. No absolute right or wrong there.  Another reason why the traditional high end of audio is probably hitting harder times than ever.
kdude66, thanks a lot, appreciate it. Makes every bit of sense.
Kenny,
I don't feel that way. (not ready for primetime). I think I am open minded enough to judge the DI or the whole Tekton line for that matter on a lengthy listening session. And even then it would just be my opinion, for better or for worse. It really intrigues me to see a product such as Tekton glean so much favorable response. I've never seen anything quite like it in my 45+ years of being an audiophile. If I could find a pair to listen to, and possibly be able to get a pair in my home I would welcome it. Even consider buying if it sounded better than what I have. I'm just a little apprehensive on taking the plunge and ordering a pair. Unless the manufacturer is willing to accept shipping and insurance costs both ways if I decided I didn't want them for whatever reason.
Cheers,
Tim
Mapman,
In general terms I agree with much of what you have written. I have had the opportunity to hear many expensive (25 K and upwards) speakers. Some were quite impressive and clearly some were better than others

I do however firmly believe that one can very successfully build an excellent sounding audio system utilizing speakers that are quite reasonably priced. As you note this will require some experience, time and good quality ancillary electronics but is definitely achievable. Matching and synergy is the vital key.
Charles
" the Double impact fell on its face at the LA show according to most"

I’d like to address this since it has been brought up twice, in this thread.

1. This was not a manufacturer room, and in this case, NOT a Tekton Design room.

2. This was NOT a dealer room highlighting Tekton Design

3. This was NOT a room set up solely to display and highlight the Double Impacts.


THIS WAS a Positive Feedback room set up to showcase and educate show attendees on lower cost systems.

I’ve copied the post from @slefty1 from 7:27 6/10/2017 from the "Tekton room at the Los Angeles Audio Show." thread.

@slefty1 is: Steve Lefkowicz, Senior Associate Editor, Positive Feedback

Readers can make up their own minds as to the validity of how the Tektons did and whether this room warrants the necessary weight to make a decision to disregard a speaker.

Here is the copied post:

slefty1 posts06-10-2017 7:27pm

Thanks to everyone who attended the show and visited the Positive Feedback - Getting Started room (Suite 533). Glad most of you enjoyed your time there. As someone already mentioned, our choice of equipment to setup and music to play was almost 100% by request. We swapped speakers over 30 times per day, and electronics almost as often.

We tried to be as clear as possible that we were not representing any of the manufacturers. Our display was more of an educational room, or at least an opportunity to experience lower cost systems in a show environment. We had nine sets of speakers, five integrated amps, one preamp/power amp combination. four turntables, two music servers (PC based) three record washers, and a bunch of DACs and accessories.

One person commented on the center seat second row sounding better, and that was the seat we positioned everything and tuned the speaker positioning for. The Double Impacts were a difficult fit in that room, and we positioned them for the best compromise between overall tonality, bass response and imaging. We played a Flaming Lips LP during setup, and the bass resonated with the furniture on the opposite wall so badly that some things shook off onto the floor. If you looked, you would have seen several bed pillows jammed between the dresser and the wall to damp that out.

Maybe some people were too shy to ask, but we tried to make it clear we would swap gear out as requested, and even set appointment times to have certain combination ready when people returned.

Someone also mentioned they were told the speakers weren’t broken in. Not sure who said that. I did virtually all the demos all three days, and except for mentioning once that an amplifier had been turned off and needed a few minutes to warm up, never mentioned break-in or warm-up about any piece in the room.

I have those Double Impacts at home now, and will be reviewing them for Positive Feedback down the road a little.

The Schiit Freya / Vidar combo may be low priced, but we also used them with the Maggie .7 speakers, and the folks from Magnepan checked our setup out and felt we had superb sound with their speakers and the Schiit electronics.

We had a blast the whole show. We were standing room only the entire time. I really enjoyed not having a set playlist, instead playing music from Tidal HiFi or my Server based on whatever people wanted to hear. Probably the only room at the show that played Diana Krall, Black Sabbath, Sublime and Enya on the same day!

I appreciate the comments from everyone. We’ll do this again, though a little differently, next year.

Steve Lefkowicz
Senior Associate Editor
Positive Feedback



After reading all these remarks about the Tekton speakers, I spent a good few minutes and browsed through their product line. On thing that stood out (for me) consistently across the board was the incredibly high efficiency/sensitivity rating of their speakers. Even accounting for the 4 ohm impedance rating  - less 3 dB as compared to 8 ohm, they are still rated in mid to high 90's dB/1w/1m - their largest tower model 1812 is 104dB. Someone used the word magic in crossover design and these values are pretty magical and might explain in part why these speakers sound the way they do. People might argue about how good they sound but there's no denying that a lot of thought and know how must have been put into the design of such crossovers. Many kudos to Eric.
I'm particularly intrigued by his OB open baffle model which doesn't seem to get much publicity. 
david_ten,

If you were referring to me as one of the two who said the DI's fell on their face. Well David, I didn't say that. I said they MAY have performed poorly. I also said I couldn't be sure as I didn't know all the details (facts) of that event. I'm failing to see your point here. So what if it is NOT a room set up by the manufacturer Tekton. So what If it is NOT a dealer set up for Tekton. (I don't believe Tekton has dealers as they are mail order, correct?) So what if the room was NOT set up solely for the display of the DI's. If I were going into that room as an educational tool for low cost systems I think I would have been highly disappointed to hear what they heard also. Considering the fact their was another system there that sounded very good. If it takes the manufacturer to be there to make sure the DI's sounded their best then why was Eric of Tekton not present??? At a trade show of that magnitude, SOMEBODY from Tekton should have been there. From what I read it sounded like there were plenty of speaker systems in the price range of the DI's that were proving their worth. Don't get me wrong, I will definitely sing the praises of the DI's or any other Tekton speaker for that matter, if it sounds truly musical to my ears. This is what I am talking about with some of you in defense of the "new baby."

Tim
Sean, if your intent was to post it as a question, then we all see the usefulness of it. Your post does not come across that way when you read it the whole thing. This is exactly what @charles1dad said earlier. I guess there is room for confusion in regards to intent.

I had wrongly assumed you were taking a cheap shot on the design as many others have here on the Gon and elsewhere. Sorry for that.  

I better understand you now and it is ceratinly a fair question to gain better clarity on. My other comments as to wether or not the individual actually tested and listened to the speakers holds. All speculation and sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous without all the facts:)

.