Relax facten, we're fine. McCluskey's flame thrower wasn't meant for you. The mods on the other hand would do well to listen to the little speech Barr gave at today's press conference. A lot would. Very educational.
Well folks I just sold my Talons for $2k. Same guy bought my old Alchemist Product 8 (Tim deParavincini designed integrated), and some wire. Together with some stuff sold earlier this just about covers the Moabs. In terms of net these will be one of my least costly component upgrades ever!
Now if I can just get someone to take the vintage Technics table and Pioneer tuner off my hands I can clear out that eye sore rack in the corner. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Moabs can be wired 4 or 8 ohms. Planning on a Raven next year, so my next call was to them. They've run Moabs with their amps at shows and without hesitation said go 4. My experience wiring subs for different impedance has already been reported. 16 ohms was quite a bit more articulate. 8 was better than 4 but it was splitting hairs. Raven feels 4 is better, although they agree between 4 and 8 it is splitting hairs. Eric we already know likes 4. So 4 it is.
mapman- Doesn’t the mass of all those tweeters add up?
That was my thought too. But then each Moab weighs 150 lbs. Does that add up to 300? My amp is 50 wpc. Does that add up to 100 watts?
The fundamental design principle is the moving mass of the driver needs to be close to the moving mass of the original moving part in order to faithfully recreate its harmonic overtones. One tweeter can do that. But one tweeter can only reproduce really high frequencies. Its too small to move the air needed for longer frequencies.
This is getting into speaker design 101, the principles of the relationship of the driver and the cabinet to wave length and frequency.
This is getting into what I was talking about earlier, being adept at reading reviews. There really is a lot of overlap when it comes to reading reviews, understanding the principles and technology, and being able to evaluate. Its hard to know where one ends and the other begins.
Its really interesting to me because this is the second time in as many years this has come up.
The first was reading about the distributed bass array. That's another one where its very hard to see how it works without first understanding a number of principles of acoustics and psychoacoustics. Duke at one point when I was building my DBA congratulated me on having the faith to make the leap. But like I told him it wasn't faith and there was no leap. Once I understood the principles well enough it was as far as I was concerned a sure thing.
The main difference here is with speakers there's always the chance everything works as promised but the cabinet or something introduces certain tonal qualities that are a turn off. That's not something anyone can measure- but everyone can hear. But on that score the comments and reviews are about as universally excellent as one could ever expect. Better, even.
Talking with Eric today, the array he uses in the different speakers looks the same but the tweeters are not the same. The Ulfs use a higher quality tweeter. Mine are being upgraded with higher quality internal wiring, crossovers, and Ulfberht tweeters.
If you would take the time to visit the site and read the reviews and learn about Tekton you will discover their whole line of speakers is expressly built for and targeted to audiophiles who prioritize extreme high value sound quality over appearance. Plenty of manufacturers specialize in making pretty speakers. Which is fine. We all have our priorities. Its good you know yours. If ever I go looking for advice on which are the good looking speakers I will know who to ask. Meantime please keep in mind this thread is about Tekton Moabs, speakers made specifically to provide the greatest possible sound at the lowest possible price.
Thanks guys. One reason for this thread is to right a wrong. The thread that first brought the Moabs and Tekton to my attention was sophomoric from the get-go. Substance shouldn’t be an uphill battle but oh well. In fairness its not anything to do with the subject but more a feature of the site and its encouragement of the worst sort. The good news is as my example shows its possible to glean information even so. The positives do outweigh the negatives, and your constructive comments make scrolling past the others worthwhile. Many thanks.
Another reason for this thread, solid reliable information on the nuts and bolts of ordering was hard to find. The ones who are happy tend not to go into it much, and the (thankfully few) ones who aren’t their disgruntlement overshadows their message. This way its out there from the beginning, the good and the bad, and we will all just see how it unfolds.
I'm in Redmond, just east of Seattle, once ground zero in the fake CCP pandemic. At one point early on something like 70 people had died here, all within 3 miles of home. Being over 60 I was especially concerned.
At first. But being in medical it wasn't long before I figured out this is the biggest fake news since, well possibly of all time. Not only have we not swamped our ICUs and morgues but our hospitals are so empty they're asking people to take furlough, which they do because our response is so jacked up you make more money not working than working.
I never was under quarantine, always went to work just to sit there doing nothing since they have everyone too scared to go to the doctor. Meanwhile my wife sits at home making twice not working what she made working. I am NOT kidding! Twice! Thanks for the opportunity to share just how unbelievably incompetent our medical and political classes have been in responding to this giant nothing burger.
Oh and there is no speaker made or ever will be made that can make trampling on constitutional rights palatable. Not to me. I'm funny that way. Not that you had any way of knowing, what with the pervasiveness of fake news and all you probably believe this is a health crisis. As if.
Back to audio.
Mine will be driven with the 50 wpc Melody integrated https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
The Melody drives the Khorus very dynamically and to quite satisfyingly high levels so the Moabs being some 3 to 6dB more efficient should be no problem.
Then hopefully within a year or so it will be the Raven Reflection MkII.https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/reflection-mk2/
Is that a sweet amp, or what??!
That at least is the plan. Who knows if I keep working and we don't tank the economy there may even be a strain gauge in there some day. Pretty sweet plan if I do say so myself. Heh.
To be honest I don't really care much what things look like. Or what they're made from for that matter. When I listen, I listen. Lights out, eyes closed. That's not to say I don't care at all. My wife has good color sense and so I did ask her before choosing Charcoal.
But really, I am all about the sound. Its very likely that within a year or so these will have been taken apart and put back together again, a process in which it may well turn out there are good mods that would improve the sound while damaging or changing or covering up the impeccable exterior finish. In that case I would be shooting myself in the foot. Not to mention, life happens. Vacuum cleaner, oops.... chip, scuff... which let's face it is pretty much inevitable.
The great value of being able to talk with teajay about this is his comparing the Moab to another strong contender, the Ulfberht. Long story short, there is less between these two than between say my current Melody and a Raven. For what Ulfberhts cost I could have Moabs and a Raven Nighthawk. Or half a Reflection MkII. Which is another long term goal. Me being the value buyer that I am that is a strong argument for the Moabs.
they do look like those hunter killers with the tentacles in the matrix. That array looks just like their eyes.
Glad you brought that up. In the future of The Matrix robots have harnessed human beings and are keeping them alive in order to harvest their energy. A violation of pretty much all the laws of thermodynamics, made all the more ludicrous by all the trouble they went to provide the pod people such a marvelous dream world. It made Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure seem almost some kind of intellectual documentary. What a shame. When with just a few lines of dialog it could have made total sense: We’re smart but not creative. The humans are creative, but not as slaves. We will make them believe they are not slaves.
In other words what the banksters and the Fed do now, The Matrix robots would be doing. But the banksters bankroll Hollywood, that’s way too much truth for debt slaves, and so instead we got a word salad shoot em up.
Eric Alexander built and listened and tried and failed over and over again until he had the creative insight that the problem is we’re trying to recreate the harmonic structure of very low moving mass parts with very high moving mass parts. Not having access to Keanu Reeves, Lawrence Fishburne and Carrie Moss to paper over this giant gaping hole in the story with a shiny blingy facade (like everyone else is doing) he went all creative on the robots and invented his awesome tweeter array.
Tweeters have very low mass and very high power to weight ratio. The only problem being they’re small, and so find it hard to move the large mass of air required of low frequencies. A whole bunch of them moving together however can get the job done. I’m told the tweeter array in the Moabs is equivalent to a 9" midrange.
Pretty phenomenal when you think about it. What Eric has done is create a 9" midrange with the effective moving mass of a 1" tweeter. No wonder everyone says the midrange is so beautiful. I can hardly wait to hear it myself.
@millercarbon The woofer is being 5 feet apart what is one of the
factors are used to make the purchase of the Moab over the encore. Also
the extra 2 dB of sensitivity. Might not get the resolution of the
superior drivers in the encore though. And also, since my room is
small, I don’t think I’ll miss the mid bass drivers, I don’t listen at
super loud volumes anymore, I already have some age related hearing
loss. That is on top of high frequency hearing loss from a right ear
Should be an awesome combination with your tube amp. There are some comments that the speakers love current, or need high power to come alive, or things like that. Always take those with a big grain of salt. They just don't match my experience. Which with different speakers has been that amps sound the way they sound regardless of power. In other words I've had amps with less power that sound more powerful than amps with more power. Now granted with only 8 watts or whatever it is not going to play as loud as 300. Not saying that. But it will be interesting to hear your impression when playing within the same volume envelope.
Congrats on the new loudspeakers. But hey, weren't you an early,
big-time alarmist about the pandemic. You were forecasting tens of
millions dead. And now you complain that it's fake news. Have you no
Guilty as charged. Although technically it was the fake models that were projecting that. I just got sucked into believing them short term by a perfect storm of events. Consider- I'm 62, in health care in Seattle. I personally roomed a patient right here in Seattle who had just flown in from being in Lombardy at the height of the outbreak in Italy. In no time at all some 70 had died and get this, all within 3 miles of my house! No one even in health care was taking it seriously, no masks or anything, and all the evidence was we were looking at all our hospitals being overwhelmed within weeks just like all the models said. Oh, and at one point they told me a patient I had x-rayed tested positive, so for two weeks I had to stress out over every cough and sore throat and take my temperature and log it twice a day. Only it wound up being only 4 days not 2 weeks, because then they said- get this- oh never mind that was someone else!
This all happened within a period of a few weeks. See what I mean about a perfect storm? So yeah, I am guilty of having contributed to the hoax. Yes hoax. It is a hoax. Biggest hoax since Russia, Russia, Russia.
And now? What is the quote, Einstein or whoever said, when the facts change I change my mind. The facts changed. I changed my mind. Not nearly as hard as some make it out to be.
spotcheckb- Anyway, enjoy your new Moab's and please post a detailed report after you've listened to them for a while.
Lol! You're new or you would know- a detailed review is a given. teajay and others have written great reviews but this will be unusually extensive. Everything from the ordering process to unpacking and setting up to construction and of course listening impressions. The Full Monty.
Speaking of which, so far they have just been ordered on-line. I called to talk with Eric but he was out so I got Tammy.
The on-line ordering is great for people who just want to pick a color, add a grill or tweeter, and order a pair. I've modded enough to know the value and impact of all the different internal parts. Every little thing makes a difference.
This is one of the great underappreciated differences between speakers. Its real easy to look at speakers like the Moab, Encore, and Ulfberht and see the different drivers. What you can't see are the parts inside. Pretty much everyone knows the crossovers have to change because of the drivers. Hardly anyone seems to know the parts quality can change as well.
Even though this makes total sense. When someone like Eric says his speakers have greater refinement as you go up the line, how do you suppose that happens? If you've modded you know greater refinement is exactly what you get with upgraded parts like caps.
So of course we are looking at upgrades. Stay tuned!
In terms of dynamics and detail and even imaging I have no doubt. There's so many reports of exceptionally good midrange and a smooth non-fatiguing sound that has people listening for hours that I'm sure these are all true. The one thing I am keen to hear is micro-dynamics and subtle inner detail. Because my Talon Khorus have been internally modded with TC and fo.Q tape and some other stuff, if the Moabs best them clear across the board in every respect it will be truly amazing. I have a sneaky suspicion they will. I sure hope they will. Because if they do, then when they receive all the same mods, wow. Wow eee wow wow wow!
I just put in an order for a dark gray pair of Moab’s yesterday with Tammy! I ended up getting the eight ohm version secondary to having a 300b integrated amplifier that only has an 8 ohm tap. I’ll be alternately driving it with a 300 W solid-state. I know, two amplifiers on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum! They will be placed in a somewhat small room, 16 X 11. I have had a pair of Thiel 2.3’s for 20 years, and didn’t feel the upgrade bug until they saw all the new technology and scores of glowing reviews. I also have a Velodyne DD 10 subwoofer, but I’m not sure I will need it.
lol! protoss71, I have FIVE subs! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
One thing I like about the Moab, the woofers are located top and bottom nearly 5 feet apart. A critical element in getting great bass response is having multiple bass sources. Each Moab speaker is in that respect like having two bass sources. I believe this is one more element in the way Eric is able to get such great sound. Just one of a number of things he's doing different than most.
My understanding is the Moab bass drivers cross over at 300 Hz. At 300 Hz the wavelength is 3.75 feet. The drivers are about 4 feet apart, but that is vertically. Longitudinally, in terms of the distance between each driver and the listener, the difference is virtually the same. Certainly in terms of the wavelength its within some tiny fraction of a wave. People just aren't able to discern such tiny differences at such low frequencies.
Studies of low frequency bass perception show a total inability to hear low bass at all, at anything less than a full wave. This is even one of the principles on which a distributed bass array works.
The idea anyone would be able to hear the two Moab woofers as two separate drivers is pure conjecture.
😂You asked how I became adept at reading reviews. There's a reason graphs and measurements weren't mentioned. There's technical considerations that matter and I have found it helps to understand. These as Obi Wan would have said are not the specs you're looking for.
MC, I give you credit for bringing in a pair of 135 lb previously
unheard loudspeakers for a trial period. Pressure’s on to like them lest
they require re-crating and return shipping expense. Odds are with you,
You don't know the half of it. Odds are the Talons will be sold before the Moabs arrive. Also pretty sure only the standard version speakers are eligible for return. These will be optioned out, probably too much to qualify. It has me a little concerned. But only a little.
Back in the beginning, 1990's, I was a solid believer in never buying anything I hadn't heard first heard in my own home. I went to great lengths to home audition everything. My ARC PH3SE phono stage was only bought after trying nearly a dozen phono stages at home. I did buy the Talons without home audition, but heard them first at a dealer and with a system I was very familiar with.
But for well over a dozen years now since my dealer retired I have come to rely on the interweb. Since then I have become very adept at reading reviews. So much so that even with something like my DIY DBA that was built not bought it completely exceeded all my expectations. Koetsu, Herron, Synergistic CTS and Euphoria, HFT, ECT, PHT, fuses, TC, Omega Mats, eCards, even fo.Q tape- each and every one of these has performed exactly as expected, and usually much better than expected.
But there is another reason I don't worry overmuch. Its on my system page. The ideal component does nothing. Its not there. It neither adds nor subtracts. No component ever really meets this perfect ideal, but that is the standard. Everything I've done for some 30 years now has been with that standard in mind. Never once have I bought one thing to go with or match or compliment or integrate with another. Its simply not the way it works.
So all the Moabs really have to do is... nothing. And my system will do the rest.
I have become very adept at reading reviews.
Please develop this further!
Seriously? Okay. Its a big complicated subject but I will try. Like our systems there's a lot of different components involved and no real way of saying one is any more important than any other. This is at best the Cliff Notes version.
Understand the subject matter. At a minimum this means everything covered in Robert Harley's Complete Guide to High End Audio. Not everything comes up in every review but the better your understanding the more deeply you are able to read into a review. Briefly, this means understanding not only all the different components (turntables, amps, etc) but their component parts (bearings, tone arms, etc) and how they work- power supplies, caps, diodes, transformers.
Audio terminology. Reviews are verbal descriptions of sounds. Learn the words that describe the sounds. As many as you can.
Learn to listen. Many of the sonic characteristics that separate the good from the not so good components are the same or similar to the differences between directionality, RFI, warm up, and burn-in, etc. Listeners of good faith can debate endlessly the reasons, time frames, etc of WHY. Not being able to hear THAT THEY ARE is a serious obstacle to being able to make full use of reviews.
Understand the economic realities of high end audio. Money spent on advertising, reviews, and fancy face plates is money not spent on quality parts. Components built in-house indicates accountability and confidence.
Then, sorry to say, but it helps a lot to have done some of this stuff. Because anyone can read about upgraded caps, wires, connectors, transformers, etc. But when you have actually swapped them out and heard the difference with your own ears and in your own system, well then and probably only then do you have a real appreciation for what all the fancy words really mean. That's what I did. That's how I became adept at reading reviews.
Harley explains in chapter 6 why speaker impedance measurements are useful when matching to an amplifier (utilizing the amp’s impedance measurements). That’s why I asked. As a reader of Harley, I thought you’d be interested to see a measurements graph.
Yeah. I know. There's a bunch of technical factors like that, and some of them actually sometimes seem to matter. As opposed to listening impressions, which always do matter. When it comes to amps the most relevant technical factors are watts and dB. Even there however if sensitivity is anywhere north of 95 and watts are anywhere north of 20 odds are good you'll be happy.
I do not understand why you would use a then priced $2K budget amp to drive a pair of $10K-$15K Talons while spending $1,000s on tweaks apparently to use, as the reviewer says, to "dial in the desired tonal balance" and then suggesting same to newbies who may not need them because they bought a more balanced system. Just my take. On the other hand, I do agree with you the Raven amps seem like very good products.
Pretty sure that was one of the reviews I based my purchase on. The history at the time, my first amp was a McCormack DNA1. The Aronov LS960I replaced the DNA. The Aronov was better in every way, including bass slam, impact, and volume, in spite of it being 60 wpc vs 150. Then I foolishly tried a Jungson Class A SS that didn't last long. So there was a little gap between Aronov and Melody. Both used KT88 tubes. In spite of the time gap I would say they were very close. The Aronov just a shade more depth, a little more liquid. I suspect even the cheapest Raven will put the Melody to shame, even at half the power. But that's only a guess.
What I do know for sure and anyone who's been here will confirm my system is not by any stretch "lean and lacks ultimate slam". Far from it! There's absolutely zero "use of cables to dial in the desired tonal balance." I've been totally consistent in everything I've ever said, that is the last thing in the world I would ever do. I know its a common point of view. I take heat all the time for telling people to NOT "system match" like this. I refer to it as the band-aid approach. But that's part of what I mean about being adept at reading reviews. Don't hang on every word.
That said, the Melody is next on the list. None of this is the be all. Its all in constant, if slow, rotation. Very slow. Glacial. Yet look where its gotten me.
Besides cables there is also a tendency to think of tweaks as tone controls. That certainly is the case with some, but certainly not all, and I try hard to avoid any that depart very far from what I consider a middle of the road balance. I would say neutral but that's been misused so much it gets a bad rap.
I will be in the Great NW early July for 10 days celebrating
a friends 70th. If you have the Moabs by then I would certainly
enjoy a chance to hear them.
They're telling me one month, so even allowing for delays we should be able to do July. Fingers crossed!
That's the one thing I'm sure I don't want.
The whole low mass driver thing is poppycock
Again, not attacking Tekton
Right. Thanks for the history lesson.
Actually Schroeder’s comment was correct, if inadvertantly, as written. My system is indeed "seriously comprised." It is seriously comprised of components carefully selected to deliver the best sound quality for the dollar that I have been able to find and afford. Its also as stated earlier a work in progress. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Its just that as stated in my earlier post, the pace of upgrades is slow. Glacially slow. But glaciers move mountains, so....
Up until just a couple years ago my system was really well balanced. By well balanced I mean everything pulling together all links pretty much equally. Then over the last few years it went, in order, Herron, Koetsu, DBA, Blue, HFT, PHT, ECT, CTS, Euphoria, PPT, Orange, FC, and now Moab. Then I expect it will be Reflection, and then maybe SG. In other words it will be even more seriously comprised.
Why all the tweeters?
is it just a design thing?Would the array take away from a nice 6-7” midrange for guitar?
The tweeter array is a patented invention of Eric Alexander and unique to Tekton speakers. Eric is a professional drummer and speaker designer who was frustrated and trying to understand why speakers never sounded anything like live musical instruments.
One day he had an insight. A violin string playing 440 Hz also produces harmonics at 880, 1760, etc. A whole series of harmonics that we audiophiles call harmonic structure or timbre. Each instrument has its own timbral signature. Its one way we tell one from another. Speakers smear and muddy over these details making it hard to tell one instrument from another- oh and, blurring imaging, damping dynamics, losing efficiency.
The note we are trying to reproduce is coming from a violin string. Eric took the violin string, cut just the length that makes the tone, and found it is only about a third of a gram. Eric had the brilliant insight that speakers sound the way they do because we're asking 30 grams of moving speaker cone and coil to reproduce 0.3 grams of violin string. Of course dynamics and harmonics are going to be lost! Of course the details go missing!
The truly brilliant part though was figuring out we don't have to use one high mass driver. We can use a lot of low mass tweeters instead.
You asked about a nice 6-7" midrange for guitar? The tweeter array in the Moab is equivalent to a single 9" midrange driver!
Don't look at the Moab as a 17 way speaker. That's not what it is. Viewed correctly it is a three way. Fourteen of the tweeters aren't really tweeters, they are one 9" midrange. Only the one tweeter in the middle is actually a tweeter.
People complain these are standard off the shelf tweeters. Well, duh. That is not the point. The genius is not in building the next best super expensive driver. The genius is in understanding you want to accurately recreate the sound of something low mass, it can only be done with something low mass.
This probably more than anything else explains why so many are in love with ESLs. Very low moving mass. ESLs unfortunately are one technical problem after another. Eric's tweeter array takes standard off the shelf affordable and easy to drive speakers and makes them sound like an ESL, only better and with none of the disadvantages. It is pure genius.
The kicker is when Eric takes apart one of his tweeters, cuts up just the moving parts- the soft dome and the coil- and weighs them they come in at about a third of a gram. Same as the violin string! Eric now has a driver of about the same mass as the source of the sound it is trying to reproduce. So of course it sounds good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6xMt6Wj9JE&feature=emb_logo
Everything flows from this one design principle. Incredible detail pops out transparently, hard edges and listener fatigue vanishes, dynamics flow effortlessly, the most complex harmonic structures naturally rendered. All because Eric figured out how to make a 1" tweeter perform like a 9" midrange. Genius.
@millercarbon congrats on the acquisition those are some massive speakers and I bet they will sound great.
Can not wait for your review of those beasts.
Thanks. Me neither. Especially now that I just sold my Talons.
Like I said before I do a ton of research and mull things over for a very long time, but its not like I bookmark and cross reference everything and so today at work I'm killing time and the Audiophiliac is interviewing this guy and he's going on and on about all his favorite speakers, and this guy has a LOT of speakers, and other stuff, and I'm really getting worried because man he REALLY likes his Maggies and Snell and wow maybe I blew it until all of a sudden 5:55 into the interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RxRTFx6Cd0
Its not on the website. Only the Be option. The rest you have to call or email. To be honest it would probably be unfair to quote a price. Not trying to be mysterious or anything. I get the sense Eric is one of those guys constantly moving so fast nobody can keep up.
Give you an example. He mentioned mine would be, I forget the term generation or whatever. Scan speak couldn't keep up with his volume. So he switched to a better tweeter. Reminiscent of Porsche where you order the RS and it comes with a bunch of cool stuff nobody ever mentioned.
Anyway there's a sort of standard upgrade with bi-wire I didn't want, and there was initial confusion on my part about tweeter- easy to do in a design with 15 tweeters only one of which is a tweeter. If you get my drift. So at first I thought he meant the Ulf tweeter is better. But no its all 15 tweeters. None of which are Be.... unless you want them to be.... on and on.
Also at one point when I was clarifying Eric said sure we can do that- pause- it'll be a little bit more but no, I'm not gonna charge you. So to be honest I've paid $4500 and not exactly certain what the extra options will come to, something like $500-650 somewhere in there. But you can't quote me on that, because he is so willing to customize (which in itself is priceless awesome) that exactly what you want will change the price, and even if it doesn't the parts he uses may change either from availability or maybe he just says wow this is better and starts using it.
My thing is, not after Be sizzle. When Eric (and others) talks about the models having basically the same sound but with greater refinement and sophistication as you go up the line, refinement and sophistication is my grail. In my experience that is quality wire, caps, drivers, etc.
He has a bi-amp option, didn't come up because its not my interest but I got the impression it wouldn't be much, probably under $200. But... don't quote me on that!!! 😂
Hey, where’d it go? The last MC post has been removed. Hate that. Shudda got the V8. Classic.
Yes but Classic only in the world of grownups who haven’t been programmed to think of themselves as special snowflakes entitled to glide though life able to say and do whatever they want but no one else so entitled. To them I am McCluskey with the flame thrower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fzsW-YMn_M
Old school grownups learned what makes a review of value is full disclosure. Its why we always list the associated components, describe setup, burn in, all that stuff. Its why this one frequently posts links to his system. So the reader can decide for him or her self what is relevant and how to interpret it. This we called having perspective. Today only one perspective is allowed, all others must be banished, in the name of- get this- tolerance, inclusiveness, and diversity.
Eric must have an upgrade for the Moab that is similar to the $300 upgrade he offers on the Double Impact. It offers Cardas copper inputs, mil-spec wiring, Mundorf caps and Sledgehammer inductors. It’s not on the Moab upgrade pop-up window though.
Mundorf, Cardas, wire, right. Don’t know about Sledgehammer, didn’t come up. Would be nice to have the time to really talk about these things. My few short conversations its clear the guy really knows this stuff inside out.
It makes sense that it would be more like $500 since there’s much more happening with the Moab.
Actually the way I understand it, those upgrades are only about $2-300. The Ulf uses a better tweeter. Not Be just better. Not a lot, in fact he said the difference is hard to hear especially at first but after a while you realize its just better. Which was enough for me! Well it makes sense because when spread the cost of $500 over 15 drivers that is only $33 per hardly like the Be which is closer to $500 per.
There is a lot more happening in all his speakers than meets the eye.
The only example I have personal experience with is my Dayton SA1000 and four 10" subs. With 2 identical amps and four subs I was able to wire them for 4, 8 and 16 ohms. 8 was better than 4 but it was hard to notice. 16 was definitely better than 8. Not huge but enough there was no doubt. This however is a bit different situation as its a solid state amp with one speaker connection not a tube amp with taps for 4 and 8 ohms. Raven told me its really splitting hairs between the two amps.
I would think the situation with the Moabs 2 woofers would be very similar to the subs and 8 would be very marginally better than 4. But its close enough its one of those situations where "what do you mean by better?" If better is louder then 4 should play just a bit louder. If better is tighter more articulate then the higher impedance has a bit of an edge. If that's all we're talking about, the main difference between Ulf and Moab is the Ulf has extra mid-bass drivers. Eric said the bass from the Moab is a bit more articulate. This is probably why. 4 ohms might add just that teensy bit of warmth there. Hard to say.
What I guess I should ask Eric is how much of that impedance change is due to the array, and how do they sound different 4 or 8 with tubes? The tech stuff Ralph knows is all well and good but I've been around the block with tech more than enough to know it doesn't always tell the tale. Listening however almost always does. The advantage I've heard in higher impedance has been in the area of making the speaker a shade less warm and a tad more articulate. In terms of articulate, speed, etc, Tekton already are compared to stats. It may well be the last thing they need is more by way of impedance. Dunno. Interesting question.
Just had a nice conversation with Eric. Actually would’ve been longer but all of a sudden this machine motor thing sound goes off he says gotta bounce...So what we got so far... (reconfigured to my inimitable style):
With tube amps there’s two aspects- the speaker, and the taps. The biggest difference with taps is the volume control. Not the volume you hear, the knob you turn. So you change the taps, it affects the volume. On one tap you may have to turn the volume up "louder" to reach the same loudness as on the other tap. The sound is virtually the same, its just very hard to tell because volume has so much to do with how we perceive sound, and with the levels changing its very hard to be sure you’re comparing the same levels. (With stepped volume you probably never can get the levels to match exactly.) I’m taking what Eric said and restating it in my own words of course but pretty sure that’s an accurate account of it.
So that’s the taps. Now about the speakers.
I told Eric about my one experience with subs where I liked the 16 ohm sound the best, because the bass was so tight and articulate. Eric totally agreed. But not the way I thought he would.
This is where the conversation got really interesting. Eric said okay you know I’m a professional musician, so now I am gonna take off my audiophile hat for a minute. And proceeded to tell me about a whole bunch of different speaker designs, how AR figured out how to use the box as a spring to control the woofer, impedance as damping, and so on. He used the metaphor of his Corvette with adjustable suspension and how the sport setting is so responsive but you do not want to drive it all day. Which I said is a great metaphor, because how do they change the settings? By controlling the valves in the shocks, which is to say the damping factor, which is impedance. Bingo!
Eric being a musician first is on a quest to make speakers that are able to reproduce the sound of actual musical instruments. Which he knows, having been around them so much. Which connected with me, having played French horn and been in band hearing live instruments up close and in person every day for years. Nowhere near his experience but close enough to see where he’s coming from.
Okay. So anyway Eric feels the high impedance sound is over-damped, in other words too tight, as compared to the real thing. He can wire them for 8 but doesn’t recommend it, says they’ll lose 3dB and sound timid. I want efficient, not timid, and trust- no, am convinced - the man knows what he’s talking about. 4 ohms it is.
Yes speedbump6 you are right I have no quarrel with anyone who disagrees. When however the disagreement is made in a way that is patently absurd or misleading however I reserve the right to point out the patent absurdity. Like posting pictures of old speakers pretending this proves... what? Its so lame I don’t even know. Proving the poster just doesn’t get it, I guess. (Scroll up a few pages raysmtb1, you are far from original- and equally far from relevant.)
Here’s the thing a lot of these people just don’t get. The world is full of really really good information. Its not like it used to be, where one guy figures something out and then six months goes by, letters, horses, and ships, another guy finds out. The problem today is filtering all that information down into something useful, actionable.
The information is there. Even in this thread. Yet even smart experienced people can miss it. Like larryi, he wrote a great post, really knowledgeable and balanced. Educational, even. Then next post with the pleated surround comment, doesn’t seem to get that one at all. (Its in the video- low transverse friction.)
Its not the number of speakers- although in the case of the tweeter array (or mid-bass drivers, or woofers), sometimes it is. Its not the shape of the surround- according to Eric its the low transverse friction of the surround, the high compliance of the whole thing. Its not that the drivers are flush mounted- although this does contribute to stiffness and time alignment. And we haven’t even gotten to the crossovers. I can only imagine the way people will try and twist that to fit their predetermined narrative- rather than try and understand what is going on and why it works so well.
Because really, when we get right down to it, that is the one thing we really do know for sure- it works really well. We know this as certain as we ever can because as speedbump6 so eloquently put it, "I doubt so many people would drink the koolaid, when people inherently like to complain when their expectations are not met."
Really appreciate all the comments geared towards a better understanding.
We live in dark times. An extraordinarily accomplished and respected is called a dishonest shill for reciting law and history. The CDC reports the fact a virus is less than ordinary flu for those under 60, this is ignored. A man says we don't need to shut down the country for less than the flu, he is attacked. The least informed feel the strongest and most compelled to do the attacking.
(Oh and someone brings up the pandemic in my thread, I respond to it, I'm the one these deranged people say brought it up. Go ahead. Scroll up. Read. See who said what first.)
It sure seems to me all the evidence is whichever impedance is better its a pretty close call. Would probably need to have them side by side to say. Even then might need to compare running the 4 ohm off the 8 ohm tap, and the 8 ohm off the 4. Something like that.
I think you were editing while I was posting.
If 100,000 dead is fake news,
Yeah, fake because its supposed to be twenty times 100,000. Fake because now even the CDC reports its less deadly than a normal run of the mill flu. Fake because all the same fake news that said its okay to fly now say its not okay even to leave your house. The tragedy is all the same people who thought we should ignore it back when it would have done some good not to, now insist we must alter every aspect of everyone's lives now that we know all we really needed to do was protect the nursing homes. If you're gonna troll, get it right.
probably 40-50% in NY were from putting people in nursing homes who should not have been there.
Right. Cuomo required by executive order that nursing homes must accept Covid positive people.
Changing the amplifier taps changes the image size, dynamics and bass punchiness. 8 ohm taps provide a more lifelike, dynamic and larger image than 4 ohm taps, which tends to produce a punchier sound. My experience changing the taps on a KT88 push pull amplifier was similar. The change in sound in both cases was significantly more than simply volume level, and it was easy to discern.
Now that's more like it. This is just the kind of thing I'm looking for. Kind of thing I would have gotten around to with Eric if we had more time.
So this is changing taps on the same amp and speaker. Easy enough to try once I get mine. What I am curious to know is have you tried the same speaker where everything was the same only it was wired differently to achieve different impedance?
Right. So bear with me if you know all this, some may not and I want to be sure we are on the same page. Any given driver has its own individual impedance curve. A speaker with one driver at 4 ohms it is what it is. A speaker with several drivers however, the impedance will change depending not only on the drivers but how they are wired- in series or in parallel.
With my subs for example, with 4 identical drivers I was able to wire them in series, and in parallel, and compare the difference. Since they are the same exact speakers and amps the only difference is impedance, which is how they are wired.
Okay. So Eric with all his speakers has multiple drivers of the same type and this enables him to change the total impedance of the speaker by doing nothing except wiring certain drivers in series or parallel. That is how he allows you to choose 4 or 8 ohms. Technically this could be changed by me after the fact but there really is a lot more going on than meets the eye and even if there wasn't let's face it I have no desire to go messing around with the maze of wires inside there.
So anyway that's the question. You have heard the difference between taps with the same speaker. But have you wired the same speaker in series and in parallel to hear the difference only impedance makes in the same exact speaker?
I too am interested in the Moabs. So I just read the 6 Moons review and it said they sounded best 16’ off the front wall, 4’ off the side walls and his listening chair was 9’ from the speakers.
Does this mean that if my room isn’t at least 25’ deep, or they won’t sound their best?
What size is your room?
My room is 17x24x9 https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
I'm with Eric, room size doesn't matter, matching speakers to room size is another audiophile canard, a view I came to long before I heard Eric saying this.
Where you put the speakers - and equally important where you sit- is in my view down to three main things. One is bass response. Closer to walls reinforces bass but also tends to make uneven bass. Another is imaging. Closer than about 3 feet side reflections arrive too soon and this tends to hurt imaging. Same with the front wall. Third is the direct/reflected balance. A little reflected room sound can add a sense of spaciousness - if its the right sort of room sound. But really the most important thing to know is none of these are carved in granite. They are all trade-offs. So where some guy puts his speakers in his room means next to nothing in terms of where you'll put yours in your room. Even though they are the same speakers. Even if all the other components are the same. Even if the room is the same! His taste and yours may not be the same.
I spent forever and ever moving speakers around, and listening chair around, until finally landing on where they are now. That was all with speakers only a fraction the size of these monsters. The Moabs will be going right where the Talons are. I will experiment with toe in. That's about it. I have learned to not sweat the small stuff. Others may disagree. Ask em again after they blow out their L4.
Chuck, congratulations on your new Moabs! I know you like to tweak, but make sure you get plenty of help moving them — hernias don’t aid listening enjoyment. And when you are settled in, invite us all over for a beer! Cheers!
They're only a little taller and heavier than the Talons, and I've moved those around a lot. My concern is when they're still boxed up, moving them around, unboxing. The Talons were crated so big they had to be uncrated in the garage. These I hear are packed smarter, but still pretty big. And heavy. But I will figure it out. I changed a water heater, made it fit into a Honda, took it to recycling. By myself. I can do it! 😂
Sorry tvad, that Master Set thing is a joke. An old, stale, and very bad joke. There is no such thing as a "stable music image that is the same from any seat in the listening room" to quote from the article. Sorry.
Yeah well everything does matter. Doesn't mean everything makes as much difference as every other thing. There's only so much time and money, and so we prioritize.
The Moabs are not by the way a radically different speaker. Not in terms of placement. Not in any way that I can see.
Check it out. One tweeter, about the same height as the last one. All those tweeters above and below, at the wavelength they cover they operate as one 9" midrange. With half above and half below they are effectively one 9" midrange mounted at the same level as the tweeter. The lower woofer is almost the same position as the Talons was. Only now there are two. Which we know from having a DBA we do not localize them below 80. My understanding is they cross over in the 150-300 Hz range. Within that range where we can localize they are mounted above and below so again, same thing, appear to be coming from the same level as the tweeter.
No wonder all the comments about their remarkably coherent sound.
The two main reasons to experiment with speaker placement are tone or frequency response, and imaging or soundstage dimensions. In terms of frequency response we already explained how they are functionally virtually the same as the Talons. Where they differ will mostly be in the low bass, which can all be much more easily fine tuned with the subs than by moving the Moabs around. You may notice I have a 5 sub DBA.
The bass for sure will need adjustment. Can hardly even imagine the awesomeness I have in store in the bass department.
That leaves toe. Which I already said will call for some trial and error. Although even there a lot of guys wind up with exactly what I had, pointed to converge on a spot just a little ways further back than they sit.
Good to hear. Do you think the warmth was due to the wood, or raising them the additional 2"?
They are threaded for and come with spikes. Do you know if the threads are 1/4-20? 3/8-16?
This "bully" who goes by millercarbon is a neanderthal who would never dream of whining about his poor hurt feelings, mommy I just want to make friends why won’t the other kids play nice mommy? (Although in this day and age he knows he should insert a Seinfeldian, "Not that there’s anything wrong with that" because he knows that these days we are no longer allowed to speak the truth without also making apologies for it. I exist. I know I shouldn’t. Sorry. Etc.) He also could not possibly care less for virtue signaling. He knows he’s not a special snowflake.
He’s a grown up who came here not to meet people, which would be mental, but to learn from their ideas, which could be beneficial. This being a print medium all you can meet is ideas, as expressed in words, as crafted by the people who post them. Millercarbon is the kind of guy who views this as sanity, recognizing the difference between virtual, and actual, reality. When he wants to meet people he goes out and actually, you know, meets them.
From the ideas presented here he’s learned about DBA, Herron, HFT, TC, fO.q, and a bunch of other stuff. And now, Tekton.
He never came here to be coddled. Why? Did you?
Excellent. They only need to be finger tight anyway. Speaker weight does most of the holding, the stud merely keeps the cones from shifting. I'm all for saving money where you can but hopefully they are anchored securely enough to tilt without breaking. Those Gaia footers put considerably more leverage force into the studs than the BDR Cones I will be using.
Were yours a standard color or high gloss, and how long did they take to deliver?
I'm anxious to hear them too!
Thanks. No grills. Upgrades I just heard about reading reviews and comments, then asking Tammy and Eric. Having myself modified speakers with new crossovers, internal wiring, vibration control and so on, I know how much difference it can make. Some can be done later but some like internal wiring is near impossible to do later. Nobody will ever do a side by side to know for sure of course, just kind of have to assume its worth it, which based on my experience it has to be.
What got me was so many comments from so many different people all centering around the theme of being incredibly detailed yet smooth and natural, a sense of ease with the speaker coasting along even at high volume levels, of being drawn in and listening for hours losing track of time. I saw comments from women who came to tears listening to Stevie Nicks, it sounded so good. Another reviewer his wife said they don’t sound hifi, because you can hear the singers voice. Hifi speakers on the other hand you hear the spittle in the corner of her mouth. Like they are competing to hear the spittle instead of the singing. Whole lot of comments like that.
The other thing that got me was the negatives. The criticisms were all the right ones, from all the right people, for all the right reasons. By right of course I mean wrong.
So many get caught up in the tweeter array they miss that there is something greater going on. Much greater. Because as so many have noticed, these same qualities are evident across the whole Tekton line. Many of which do not have a tweeter array. Clearly there is a lot more going on, or you wouldn’t have gotten sucked in to the Lores like you did. So eager to hear for myself.
I haven’t studied the Encores. Was initially aiming Ulfberht. Talking to some who have compared it seems Moab comes very close and for half the price. The Encore being between them would really be splitting hairs.
Other than the obvious differences in drivers there’s some less visible differences in parts.
Eric makes the comment they all have his "house sound" you just get more refinement and sophistication as you go up the line. Well, how do you get refinement and sophistication by adding some 7" drivers? You don’t. What you get is a more even power response. Better caps, wires, and higher quality drivers, that’s how you get refinement and sophistication. So I requested higher quality parts and drivers. The difference between my Moabs and Ulfs will probably be confined to some small lack of emphasis in the 90 to 180 Hz range, something like that, but even if its twice what I think it is, I’m gonna pay another $4k for that? Not made of money. Pass.
That’s practically a Raven Osprey there. I’d much rather have Moabs and Osprey than Ulfberhts and Melody. Not even close.
Tekton Moabs are large speakers.
Indubitably, Mr Holmes. And earlier you noted your one objection was the difficulty of shipping them back, in case of return. But how else are you going to do a home audition? I mean even from your local audio salon the speakers still need to be packed, loaded, unpacked, set up, etc. Only thing different if they go back to Tekton they get boxed up and taken back to a shipper instead of a store.
Thanks. The DI's are one of the most universally acclaimed speakers in memory. While looking into Moab I kept coming across guys like this who absolutely love their DI's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RxRTFx6Cd0=640s
When you say large grin, hope so!
How would it be impolite? Horses for courses.
Millercarbon. What are your thoughts about Moabs with all BE tweeters, cost aside? I know the BE tweeter is an upgrade option.
Eric is a total speaker builder, by which I mean he’s willing to build pretty much what you want. That said his normal options for tweeter upgrades are one Be tweeter, or all tweeters Be. The expensive one on the site is all of them. Without auditioning I go like everything else by interpreting others comments, here there and everywhere. Those led me to believe I would not prefer the Be, not even just the single tweeter, not even at no additional cost. That’s just me. Not saying anything wrong with it, just its not something I want. What tiny sliver of doubt I may have had evaporated talking with teajay who again said nothing bad just helped confirm what I already was thinking.
Instead of Be my tweeters, all of them, will be upgraded to the tweeters used in the Ulf. Unlike the Be which is a big price bump even just for one these are about the price bump of one but for all. So only something like $20-30 per tweeter more. As I recall Eric said the difference is not obvious, but its there. Somewhere else along the line I heard him say his speakers get more refined and sophisticated as you go up the line. I simply put two and two together.
Using McCormack DNA-750s’ w 700W RMS @ 8Ohms, and over 1000W @ 4 Ohms.!
I’ll say. That is almost like having a 70 watt tube amp!!😉
rixthetrick seems to have a pretty good handle on things. This is probably gonna be counter-intuitive but I agree with everything he said AND that is why I think the Moabs will blend seamlessly as one just the way everyone says they do. Only its not only the listener impressions- which I always prioritize way more than technical factors- but in this case the technical factors actually are behind that as well.
I've been saying this is really a three way speaker. But the more I think about it the more it seems like a two way. Earth to Millercarbon, there are 17 drivers per speaker, you have lost it! 17 does not equal 2. Finally we have proof the dude is nuts.
I've mentioned this before but didn't really think it through until now. So thanks rixthetrick.
The 14 tweeters in the two midrange arrays are all the same tweeter as the single tweeter-tweeter in the middle. The only things we know about the crossover is Eric has patents and is very proud of them being perfectly phase/time coherent. Lets just assume for the sake of the argument the crossover is good and take it off the table.
That leaves us with 15 tweeters. All the same. With driven area effectively equivalent to a 9" driver. The crossover is something like 300 Hz, with output down an octave below that. The wavelength at these ranges is longer than the distance across the array, which is why there is no comb filtering and why they function as one driver.
What we have, in other words, is the seamless coherence of a single driver, only instead of the moving mass of a 9" driver it has the low mass and responsiveness of a tweeter.
Then mounted above and blow, centered on the same tweeter, are the two woofers. Same thing, they are because of the longer wave length effectively one (larger) driver.
There is the problem of falloff in output in the upper range of the woofers and the lower range of the tweeter array. A range Eric addresses in the more expensive Encore and Ulfberht speakers. Its easy to see why the Ulfberht must be one truly awesome transducer. Its also easy to see why it costs a great deal more to build than a Moab, and why teajay would tell me he loves his but that really its only that one small octave or so of bass where you hear a difference, and even then its not all that much.
So yeah, would be cool to have them and have someone bring something over to compare. Been years since I did that. Vandersteen did not come off too well against speakers no one here ever even heard of. Oh well. It will never happen. But it sure would be fun. No matter how it goes.
No desire to upgrade, glad to hear, exactly what I'm going for. Thanks.
I'm 62. These may well be my last speakers. Then with a Raven I will be just about set. Maybe a Soundsmith SG. That will be it for the big stuff and I can look forward to detailing the room, composting, and gardening.
I continue to thoroughly enjoy the rich sound they produce.
Its comments like that got me interested in Tekton. Rich, don't hear that associated with high end speakers a lot. Thanks!
When ordered on the 22nd was told about a month. Apparently the combination of people being stuck at home, stimulus checks, and a bargain lineup has Tekton just about maxed out on production. Fortunately I am happy with standard Charcoal as the piano gloss finishes involve multiple coats with wet sanding that adds another couple weeks. Was feeling no rush when ordered but the other night my wife was like how about a movie and I was all, with what? No speakers gets old fast.
The Khorus is a fine speaker. But they are essentially a 2-way with a super tweeter. They were still new when Talon came out with the Firebird which instantly made me realize what the Khorus was missing, the midrange. But Firebirds were way out of reach and so I had to make do with crossover upgrades and mods. So here we go from known midrange weakness to expected midrange strength. We will see.
Whatever it is, it will be here, in detail.
And yet in 20 years the Talons in my room earned nothing but compliments, and sold for top dollar and without haggling to the first guy who heard them. So you can say whatever you like. Uninformed opinions are a dime a dozen, and that's me like you trying to be nice.
Miller, it will be much longer than a month.
Hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me. They are swamped, incredibly busy, and from what I was told are now even max'd out on physical space. So we will see. On the other hand is there anywhere else you can consult with the designer/builder and have your own custom version made to order? At a price easily half or less what it would be through a dealer?
If we somehow in spite of our best efforts manage to not utterly destroy the economy and his business keeps growing its hard to see anything but expansion into new facilities where Eric transitions to a more senior designer/president type role, with prices rising accordingly. Options like I was able to get will be a thing of the past, sacrificed on the alter of efficiency.
I've never bothered, and never will. No offense, but people who want things measured are their own worst enemies. There never is any satisfying them. Not saying you are like that. But plenty are.
My last speakers were supposed to be 90 dB and they would play plenty loud. Whatever Moabs measure in dB is in a sense irrelevant. What matters is how they compare to other speakers. Whatever it is, its more than now, and so I am sure they'll play louder with the same amp than speakers that already play louder than I need. Whatever yours are, I would take the same approach, and anything around the same level you will be fine.
In case you don't know there are plenty of low watt SET amp owners saying their Moabs and Ulfs work just fine, and in bigger rooms than yours. So again you should be fine. Search around, you will see.