The people from Townsend Must have caught wind of this thread.
I started getting PM'd about it a long time ago. Want to be sure I know they have springs that can handle my 750 lb turntable rack. And everything else.
Deborah immediately caught onto DBA sub theory, and clearly heard the sound go as she put it distorted when the Cable Elevators were removed. But not just her, Keith noticed the acoustic sounds good, you can tell just by the way we sound talking to each other. Their room is only slightly smaller than mine. They are on their way to building a fabulous system together.
millercarbon,Exactly. A typical single tweeter is usually crossed
over at 3000 Hz in other speakers. But it would have some small output
at 300 and even 40 Hz. It can still vibrate at 40 Hz, but the amplitude
is tiny so there is negligible output. But multiply the tiny amplitude
by 14 as in the double arrays, and you have flat good output down to
about 300 Hz. I am guessing that the 6 tweeters in the single array can
furnish flat outputs down to about 400 Hz or so.
Tweeters move and have output at every frequency all the way down to zero. Those who don't believe me, rather than argue simply connect a battery to any speaker and watch the cone move... and then stop! A speaker is an electromagnet after all. They respond to all frequencies from zero to infinity. The problem is all in the linearity of the response we can hear. For that we have been using smaller drivers for shorter waves, bigger drivers for longer waves, and all sorts of cabinet tricks with ports and horns and so on.
Someone like Eric comes along and has the genius level idea you can do much lower frequencies with much smaller drivers and achieve much greater dynamics and linearity. People can't get their minds around it. The Moab, Encore, and Ulfberht all use the exact same driver to cover everything from the mid-bass on up. The entire midrange, so critical to sound right, is thereby covered with essentially one driver. And the treble. And a lot of the bass. It really is genius level work.
The smaller arrays like the DI are all doing the exact same thing. The difference is only in the balance of trade-offs. Its all trade-offs all the time with everything. One trade off is as you said the array won't go quite as low. 400Hz or so you are probably right. Whatever it is, its low enough the critical midrange is still being covered by all one thing. Which accounts for the DI being such a popular speaker.
priority is bass. That's why my reference speakers, the Audiostatic
electrostatic from 1980 which use single flat panels with a radiating
area of only 250 sq inches, produce very little bass below 100 Hz.
Sure, I would like to have more ACCURATE bass extension than that, but I
am not willing to compromise the extraordinary clarity just to get more
bass. I am considering the Tektons for their ability to provide
everything. How about a design like this--6 regular or Be tweeter
arrays of 42 total for a range of perhaps 100-3000Hz, 3 close tweeters
for HF or a longer AMT tweeter, and a few 5-6" nimble cones for bass
down to 50 Hz? I would be happy, although all the Be tweeters would be
very expensive. Just a fantasy, since hardly anyone except me would be
First of all you probably would be very happy with regular old Double Impacts. I am not kidding. Watch this guy who has them, and how he marvels at their ability to have the speed of a stat. https://youtu.be/7RxRTFx6Cd0?t=353
along with everything else.
But if you really are in love with your stats and just want superb seamless bass why not add a DBA? 100 Hz might be a bit high to go but the beauty of a DBA is its flexibility. Ordinarily you would put four subs asymmetrically along the walls. But you could also put one right next to each stat, set those to cover up to where they roll off, and put the others further away and set lower as normal. That way you get the superb DBA bass without any risk of being distracted by ones off to the side going high enough to be able to locate them. When done right a DBA completely absolutely disappears and blends seamlessly with anything. Tim (noble100) has stats and he's not the only one who loves em. A DBA will cost you way less than Be tweeters, and when you hear how good the bass is you will only be wishing you had done it sooner.
Of course it is a dig. That is exactly what it is, and that is all that it is.
My aunt Bessie was stone deaf from birth. One day she comes over and we're playing music really loud, which we can do because being stone deaf no way aunt Bessie gonna complain, right? She comes downstairs (we rock out in the basement) and why is aunt Bessie all excited? Goes right up to one of the speakers, puts her hand on it, face beaming with joy, starts moving and mouthing, "MUSIC!!!"
Anyone so freaking clueless they think people can't feel music, I don't even know where to begin. But its one reason I was right to make the list.
Timmy and I thought replacing the brass screws made a big difference.
Notable increase in transparency, more coherency and
the speakers started to disappear.
Its on the list. Use fO.q tape between drivers and baffle, and cut into washers so the drivers have the tape on either side. Then replace the mild steel screws with brass. But every time I do something like that the job expands- another coat of TDF, another few Mats- got to find the time!
But then I stood back and took a harder look and wondered how I would react if a thread I had started with best intentions got derailed and bloated with meaningless and at times mindless drivel.
There may be hope for you yet. Thanks.
He's MDS. Leave him be.
I like the Townshend design with the springs coming up through a low-profile flat plate. It looks easy enough to build, including with the level and height adjustments. Easier than what I had in mind anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4
Elements of course are nothing to do with Mother Earth. All but a few were made inside stars, most when the star went supernova spewing them back into space where some of them became the Earth. And us. Don't feel bad, hardly anyone has caught up with 19th century science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJQjjBR6PbY
But the part about sonic benefits from surface applications of coatings infused with certain ones, that is right on. Most fascinating, the signal is not what we think it is. The best power conditioner isn't a conditioner. Isn't even a circuit.
If I told you guys the stuff that's going on now all but one or two of you would go nuts. The one or two would nod and not post. Because they are even more sick and tired of the BS around here than me.
Rixthetrix Spring Things are going together nicely. Keep hacking away indiscriminately and might be in testable prototype form right about the time the ribs are ready to come off the Traeger. Dry rub. Sweet Baby Ray’s. TDF.
I'm near 63 and had no problem unboxing and setting up myself. Not to mention laid em down, pulled the drivers to tweak and set back up again, then again on the Spring Things. So that's like 3 times all by myself.
Listening to them today and never sounded better. If you have the XLO CD do yourself a treat and play the demagnetizing tracks while your amp is warming up. They like a lot of toe. Enjoy!
Ray, djones and others are currently deciding which fake measurement you are violating in order to hear the differences you have discovered.
Its 34". But he doesn't make just an MTM like that. Closest would probably be the Impact Monitor, but its a smaller less than half array.
ksnel331, Oh yeah, now you're talking. I do enjoy a good whiskey, but never seem to be able to find one, that I really like I mean, until a friend gave me a bottle of Makers Mark- but not the normal one it was special reserve or something- anyway long gone (which is how I know it was good!) and I never found another to replace it. Anyway it was mighty tasty. So you are welcome to bring that or your favorite, and introduce me to something new. Unless of course you prefer the Dunham Cabernet Sauvignon you bought five years ago to be prepared for just such an occasion. 😉. Appreciate quality in all things. If you have the time, you will have to let me know if you prefer ribeye or pork back ribs. We eat good here! 😁
ksnel331- They told me one month, took two. Hate to say but speedbump6 is probably right, expect 3. I would not delay ordering on the expectation of being able to time delivery, you will be setting yourself up for disappointment on that score. But only on that score. You will NOT be disappointed with these speakers! I am 90 minutes south. You are welcome any time. If you haven’t ordered I will be taking away your cell phone or you’ll be calling before the first song is over. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
FYI- Moabs with Raven Osprey, total $9k, blow the socks off that Mac deal. Totally. When you hear how they sound with my cheap amp you will know. Talk is cheap. Come and listen. You will see.
Thanks kingbarbuda, you are welcome to come hear any time and let us know. Redmond, WA.
The combination of liquid and detailed is to die for. I put on so much different music and no two sound anywhere near the same but they all sound fabulous, with that draw you in captivating detail. Can hardly imagine what it'd be like with a more high-end amp. Let alone two of em!
ksnel331, You and your wife and however many you like are welcome any time. I'm off every Thurs/Fri and every other weekend- working this weekend so next weekend would be fine. DM me we will work it out.
Mine are modded, but so is my whole system. So much so I have a hard time believing you will be anything less than impressed. Nobody gets it, just what the right mods can do. This being the case, if you do get Moabs and want to do those same mods you will be welcome to come back once you have them and spend a day, we will open mine up and do some more mods and I will set you up with exactly what to do. If there's a speaker out there that can touch them at that point, well let's just say they won't be no $5k- or even $12k, or $20k.
All the better that you bring your wife. Audiophiles sometimes have funny ideas of what sounds good. Not saying you do but some do. Women never do. She will be in heaven. Come and listen. You will see.
Rick is gonna have me crawling under the house, mixing concrete, pouring footings, erecting posts, enough to support a whole new house, all for one 135 lb speaker. That isn't even sitting on the floor, but on springs! Which I always thought was nuts. But now seems to make a lot of sense. Just like putting goop on the outside of the insulator where it can't possibly have any effect on the signal. Yet does....
The sound now after doing the panel is so relaxed and natural its hard to put your finger on any single thing that's improved, except it has improved and a lot, but the main thing you notice is its just way more relaxed, no fatigue, no strain. Just music.
IF is intermittent fasting. OMAD is one meal a day. The Carper is showing his natural tendency to carp and cavil.
ksnel331, Let's make it next Saturday afternoon then. I'm IF, OMAD, usually eat pretty late, so no worries.
Just what I was thinking, that the single tweeter array doesn't have as wide a range as the double tweeter array. I wonder if the Be tweeters have more capability at lower freq compared to the standard tweeters.
Depends what you mean by capability. In terms of frequency response its almost entirely determined by the physics of wavelength and driver size. To go lower requires a physically larger driver. Or in this case more drivers in a bigger array. This remains true regardless of what tweeter is used. A better more powerful driver might extend only a little bit lower. The vast majority of it is coming from the increased area of the entire array.
I want to learn and i am interested by your springs experience...
Plan is first try under subs. Because subs are small, the springs can just go under them as-is. The springs are tuned for the more massive Moabs but using three instead of four will not be too far off and should give some idea.
If that works then next up, Moab. Struts will extend them out several inches from each corner for stability, and designed to maintain the same height as now, with some adjustment range for leveling.
If that works out well then the next phase will be to pour a concrete plinth to go on the floor and make a more inert base for the springs. It will be modeled after the concrete shelves used in my turntable rack https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
but with improvements since I've learned a thing or two since then.
What millercarbon actually said (yes an actual quote, you could look it up):
Million dollar by the way, anyone so dim they can't see that's an
expression not meant to be taken literally, don't encourage them. If
they're dumb enough to get on my case over measly million dollar
speakers just imagine how enraged they'll be if they find out about this
In the fine art of trolling the highest level is the victims don't even know they're being trolled. Which they don't. Even though its right out there in the open. I find it so much more sporting and entertaining that way.
Springs were proof of concept for the Moabs- and by extension everything else. Was thinking of how to apply this to cables, lots of ideas but too complicated, until this really simple solution came along. Works so well, really enjoying being in the enviable position of having more great ideas than time to get them done. Means totally better sound always there for the taking. Unlike conventional upgrades where its there but thousands of dollars out of reach. This was equivalent to a $500 power cord. I am not kidding.
This is what we can all be doing. If only we are in the right frame of mind. When we are tuned in to learning new things the world is full of opportunity. We can learn anything, any time, anywhere. Like just a minute ago I used the word cavil. Betcha whole bunch of people never heard that word before, don’t know what it means. They could look it up, learn it means to raise trivial and frivolous objection. They could learn something. But they choose to cavil.
Your life. Your choice. Choose wisely.
None, per se. Benefits depend on the particulars like flexibility in setting crossover, level, phase, etc. The Daytons have EQ, low end boost, bypass, just a lot of very useful features. Powered subs with these same features, if they also have the power and quality, will be a bit better - theoretically at least - because each one can be set independently of the others.
MC - ha you tried it! what did you use as the frame?
Rick, of course I tried it. While the Hateful 18 carp and cavil I actually get stuff done. The trick was realizing just how simple it could be. Wala! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Two rubber bands suspend the cable allowing free and easy movement. Not a lot, but we don't need a lot. Tried a few before finding these with just the right tension. I believe they are the ones Safeway uses for broccoli. 😂😂😂
And so with one fell swoop I simultaneously confound the H18 and out-magister mahgister. The degree to which the sound was floating in the room last night was absolutely astounding. Love my Moabs. Love my system.
You and mahgister, you're pretty good too. 😉
Been a while so timely reminder, anyone wishing to get off the Hateful 18 list, have their presence acknowledged and questions answered, simply remove all your waste of space posts on this thread, PM me a few short words of regret, and I will think about it.
Relax facten, we're fine. McCluskey's flame thrower wasn't meant for you. The mods on the other hand would do well to listen to the little speech Barr gave at today's press conference. A lot would. Very educational.
Well folks I just sold my Talons for $2k. Same guy bought my old Alchemist Product 8 (Tim deParavincini designed integrated), and some wire. Together with some stuff sold earlier this just about covers the Moabs. In terms of net these will be one of my least costly component upgrades ever!
Now if I can just get someone to take the vintage Technics table and Pioneer tuner off my hands I can clear out that eye sore rack in the corner. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Moabs can be wired 4 or 8 ohms. Planning on a Raven next year, so my next call was to them. They've run Moabs with their amps at shows and without hesitation said go 4. My experience wiring subs for different impedance has already been reported. 16 ohms was quite a bit more articulate. 8 was better than 4 but it was splitting hairs. Raven feels 4 is better, although they agree between 4 and 8 it is splitting hairs. Eric we already know likes 4. So 4 it is.
Oh and general FYI- I do get notifications of posts, and it should come as no surprise there's a whole bunch of you I don't even read the blurb in the email, let alone the blather in the rest of whatever it is you posted.
This might sometimes result in missing a legit post or two. If that happens, sorry. If the question really is legit, and relevant, please ask again. If you do, don't forget to mention none of this would be necessary if the Hateful 18 would simply move along, please.
mapman- Doesn’t the mass of all those tweeters add up?
That was my thought too. But then each Moab weighs 150 lbs. Does that add up to 300? My amp is 50 wpc. Does that add up to 100 watts?
The fundamental design principle is the moving mass of the driver needs to be close to the moving mass of the original moving part in order to faithfully recreate its harmonic overtones. One tweeter can do that. But one tweeter can only reproduce really high frequencies. Its too small to move the air needed for longer frequencies.
This is getting into speaker design 101, the principles of the relationship of the driver and the cabinet to wave length and frequency.
This is getting into what I was talking about earlier, being adept at reading reviews. There really is a lot of overlap when it comes to reading reviews, understanding the principles and technology, and being able to evaluate. Its hard to know where one ends and the other begins.
Its really interesting to me because this is the second time in as many years this has come up.
The first was reading about the distributed bass array. That's another one where its very hard to see how it works without first understanding a number of principles of acoustics and psychoacoustics. Duke at one point when I was building my DBA congratulated me on having the faith to make the leap. But like I told him it wasn't faith and there was no leap. Once I understood the principles well enough it was as far as I was concerned a sure thing.
The main difference here is with speakers there's always the chance everything works as promised but the cabinet or something introduces certain tonal qualities that are a turn off. That's not something anyone can measure- but everyone can hear. But on that score the comments and reviews are about as universally excellent as one could ever expect. Better, even.
Talking with Eric today, the array he uses in the different speakers looks the same but the tweeters are not the same. The Ulfs use a higher quality tweeter. Mine are being upgraded with higher quality internal wiring, crossovers, and Ulfberht tweeters.
I had checked out the prima Luna 400 and octave 70 series I believe when I went looking for a tube integrated recently. I hope the raven is way better, as I was sorely disappointed by those two. They made noise is about the best I could say. Listened to the McIntosh mc352 with tube preamp and solid state amp. Now that sounded
wonderful, so I bought it. Someday maybe I’ll look into full tube again, but based on the first two, I Havnt been impressed.
My first really good amp was a McCormack DNA1. Beautiful sound. Compared a lot, too. Replaced it with the Aronov integrated, which was only very slightly better sounding (very close in all respects) but being integrated saved a whole lot of money. Great amp, but they seem to be unstable, or unreliable beyond a number of years. The Melody is not quite as deep and holographic as the Aronov, but otherwise pretty much the same. (The Aronov had been extensively modded with diodes and caps by then so to be so close is actually pretty impressive.)
Couple things I learned with these is how all the different parts contribute to the ultimate sound. The conventional wisdom is its almost all tubes. Yes the tubes do contribute. No doubt about it. But equally as important, if not more so, are the transformers and the quality of all the other parts. I'm sure a big reason the Melody sounds so much better than you'd expect for the money is that D100 rectifier diode tube. These things matter enormously.
So because of all that experience when I watch a video like this one it ticks all the boxes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcd76DZmbdY&t=300s
As sure as the sun rises in the East the usual suspects will scream that's a infomercial. So what? Listen to the information. Look at the circuit boards. Catch the details: resistors and caps of the same brand are not used 3 times in a circuit because this begins to impart their sound. Same for solder. Different silver solder is used throughout the amps in order to avoid imparting a particular sound. Who does this? Not rhetorical. Really interested to know. Anyone else ever even heard of this level of detail? I sure haven't.
They also clearly explain the differences between the various amps. The kicker comes in when you go searching around and find guys like willgolf who have heard the best of the best and still love the Raven. Watch the video. Or wait for my review. Assuming Santa reads his mail.
Thanks guys. One reason for this thread is to right a wrong. The thread that first brought the Moabs and Tekton to my attention was sophomoric from the get-go. Substance shouldn’t be an uphill battle but oh well. In fairness its not anything to do with the subject but more a feature of the site and its encouragement of the worst sort. The good news is as my example shows its possible to glean information even so. The positives do outweigh the negatives, and your constructive comments make scrolling past the others worthwhile. Many thanks.
Another reason for this thread, solid reliable information on the nuts and bolts of ordering was hard to find. The ones who are happy tend not to go into it much, and the (thankfully few) ones who aren’t their disgruntlement overshadows their message. This way its out there from the beginning, the good and the bad, and we will all just see how it unfolds.
To be honest I don't really care much what things look like. Or what they're made from for that matter. When I listen, I listen. Lights out, eyes closed. That's not to say I don't care at all. My wife has good color sense and so I did ask her before choosing Charcoal.
But really, I am all about the sound. Its very likely that within a year or so these will have been taken apart and put back together again, a process in which it may well turn out there are good mods that would improve the sound while damaging or changing or covering up the impeccable exterior finish. In that case I would be shooting myself in the foot. Not to mention, life happens. Vacuum cleaner, oops.... chip, scuff... which let's face it is pretty much inevitable.
The great value of being able to talk with teajay about this is his comparing the Moab to another strong contender, the Ulfberht. Long story short, there is less between these two than between say my current Melody and a Raven. For what Ulfberhts cost I could have Moabs and a Raven Nighthawk. Or half a Reflection MkII. Which is another long term goal. Me being the value buyer that I am that is a strong argument for the Moabs.
they do look like those hunter killers with the tentacles in the matrix. That array looks just like their eyes.
Glad you brought that up. In the future of The Matrix robots have harnessed human beings and are keeping them alive in order to harvest their energy. A violation of pretty much all the laws of thermodynamics, made all the more ludicrous by all the trouble they went to provide the pod people such a marvelous dream world. It made Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure seem almost some kind of intellectual documentary. What a shame. When with just a few lines of dialog it could have made total sense: We’re smart but not creative. The humans are creative, but not as slaves. We will make them believe they are not slaves.
In other words what the banksters and the Fed do now, The Matrix robots would be doing. But the banksters bankroll Hollywood, that’s way too much truth for debt slaves, and so instead we got a word salad shoot em up.
Eric Alexander built and listened and tried and failed over and over again until he had the creative insight that the problem is we’re trying to recreate the harmonic structure of very low moving mass parts with very high moving mass parts. Not having access to Keanu Reeves, Lawrence Fishburne and Carrie Moss to paper over this giant gaping hole in the story with a shiny blingy facade (like everyone else is doing) he went all creative on the robots and invented his awesome tweeter array.
Tweeters have very low mass and very high power to weight ratio. The only problem being they’re small, and so find it hard to move the large mass of air required of low frequencies. A whole bunch of them moving together however can get the job done. I’m told the tweeter array in the Moabs is equivalent to a 9" midrange.
Pretty phenomenal when you think about it. What Eric has done is create a 9" midrange with the effective moving mass of a 1" tweeter. No wonder everyone says the midrange is so beautiful. I can hardly wait to hear it myself.
@millercarbon The woofer is being 5 feet apart what is one of the
factors are used to make the purchase of the Moab over the encore. Also
the extra 2 dB of sensitivity. Might not get the resolution of the
superior drivers in the encore though. And also, since my room is
small, I don’t think I’ll miss the mid bass drivers, I don’t listen at
super loud volumes anymore, I already have some age related hearing
loss. That is on top of high frequency hearing loss from a right ear
Should be an awesome combination with your tube amp. There are some comments that the speakers love current, or need high power to come alive, or things like that. Always take those with a big grain of salt. They just don't match my experience. Which with different speakers has been that amps sound the way they sound regardless of power. In other words I've had amps with less power that sound more powerful than amps with more power. Now granted with only 8 watts or whatever it is not going to play as loud as 300. Not saying that. But it will be interesting to hear your impression when playing within the same volume envelope.
spotcheckb- Anyway, enjoy your new Moab's and please post a detailed report after you've listened to them for a while.
Lol! You're new or you would know- a detailed review is a given. teajay and others have written great reviews but this will be unusually extensive. Everything from the ordering process to unpacking and setting up to construction and of course listening impressions. The Full Monty.
Speaking of which, so far they have just been ordered on-line. I called to talk with Eric but he was out so I got Tammy.
The on-line ordering is great for people who just want to pick a color, add a grill or tweeter, and order a pair. I've modded enough to know the value and impact of all the different internal parts. Every little thing makes a difference.
This is one of the great underappreciated differences between speakers. Its real easy to look at speakers like the Moab, Encore, and Ulfberht and see the different drivers. What you can't see are the parts inside. Pretty much everyone knows the crossovers have to change because of the drivers. Hardly anyone seems to know the parts quality can change as well.
Even though this makes total sense. When someone like Eric says his speakers have greater refinement as you go up the line, how do you suppose that happens? If you've modded you know greater refinement is exactly what you get with upgraded parts like caps.
So of course we are looking at upgrades. Stay tuned!
In terms of dynamics and detail and even imaging I have no doubt. There's so many reports of exceptionally good midrange and a smooth non-fatiguing sound that has people listening for hours that I'm sure these are all true. The one thing I am keen to hear is micro-dynamics and subtle inner detail. Because my Talon Khorus have been internally modded with TC and fo.Q tape and some other stuff, if the Moabs best them clear across the board in every respect it will be truly amazing. I have a sneaky suspicion they will. I sure hope they will. Because if they do, then when they receive all the same mods, wow. Wow eee wow wow wow!
I just put in an order for a dark gray pair of Moab’s yesterday with Tammy! I ended up getting the eight ohm version secondary to having a 300b integrated amplifier that only has an 8 ohm tap. I’ll be alternately driving it with a 300 W solid-state. I know, two amplifiers on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum! They will be placed in a somewhat small room, 16 X 11. I have had a pair of Thiel 2.3’s for 20 years, and didn’t feel the upgrade bug until they saw all the new technology and scores of glowing reviews. I also have a Velodyne DD 10 subwoofer, but I’m not sure I will need it.
lol! protoss71, I have FIVE subs! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
One thing I like about the Moab, the woofers are located top and bottom nearly 5 feet apart. A critical element in getting great bass response is having multiple bass sources. Each Moab speaker is in that respect like having two bass sources. I believe this is one more element in the way Eric is able to get such great sound. Just one of a number of things he's doing different than most.
My understanding is the Moab bass drivers cross over at 300 Hz. At 300 Hz the wavelength is 3.75 feet. The drivers are about 4 feet apart, but that is vertically. Longitudinally, in terms of the distance between each driver and the listener, the difference is virtually the same. Certainly in terms of the wavelength its within some tiny fraction of a wave. People just aren't able to discern such tiny differences at such low frequencies.
Studies of low frequency bass perception show a total inability to hear low bass at all, at anything less than a full wave. This is even one of the principles on which a distributed bass array works.
The idea anyone would be able to hear the two Moab woofers as two separate drivers is pure conjecture.
😂You asked how I became adept at reading reviews. There's a reason graphs and measurements weren't mentioned. There's technical considerations that matter and I have found it helps to understand. These as Obi Wan would have said are not the specs you're looking for.
MC, I give you credit for bringing in a pair of 135 lb previously
unheard loudspeakers for a trial period. Pressure’s on to like them lest
they require re-crating and return shipping expense. Odds are with you,
You don't know the half of it. Odds are the Talons will be sold before the Moabs arrive. Also pretty sure only the standard version speakers are eligible for return. These will be optioned out, probably too much to qualify. It has me a little concerned. But only a little.
Back in the beginning, 1990's, I was a solid believer in never buying anything I hadn't heard first heard in my own home. I went to great lengths to home audition everything. My ARC PH3SE phono stage was only bought after trying nearly a dozen phono stages at home. I did buy the Talons without home audition, but heard them first at a dealer and with a system I was very familiar with.
But for well over a dozen years now since my dealer retired I have come to rely on the interweb. Since then I have become very adept at reading reviews. So much so that even with something like my DIY DBA that was built not bought it completely exceeded all my expectations. Koetsu, Herron, Synergistic CTS and Euphoria, HFT, ECT, PHT, fuses, TC, Omega Mats, eCards, even fo.Q tape- each and every one of these has performed exactly as expected, and usually much better than expected.
But there is another reason I don't worry overmuch. Its on my system page. The ideal component does nothing. Its not there. It neither adds nor subtracts. No component ever really meets this perfect ideal, but that is the standard. Everything I've done for some 30 years now has been with that standard in mind. Never once have I bought one thing to go with or match or compliment or integrate with another. Its simply not the way it works.
So all the Moabs really have to do is... nothing. And my system will do the rest.
I have become very adept at reading reviews.
Please develop this further!
Seriously? Okay. Its a big complicated subject but I will try. Like our systems there's a lot of different components involved and no real way of saying one is any more important than any other. This is at best the Cliff Notes version.
Understand the subject matter. At a minimum this means everything covered in Robert Harley's Complete Guide to High End Audio. Not everything comes up in every review but the better your understanding the more deeply you are able to read into a review. Briefly, this means understanding not only all the different components (turntables, amps, etc) but their component parts (bearings, tone arms, etc) and how they work- power supplies, caps, diodes, transformers.
Audio terminology. Reviews are verbal descriptions of sounds. Learn the words that describe the sounds. As many as you can.
Learn to listen. Many of the sonic characteristics that separate the good from the not so good components are the same or similar to the differences between directionality, RFI, warm up, and burn-in, etc. Listeners of good faith can debate endlessly the reasons, time frames, etc of WHY. Not being able to hear THAT THEY ARE is a serious obstacle to being able to make full use of reviews.
Understand the economic realities of high end audio. Money spent on advertising, reviews, and fancy face plates is money not spent on quality parts. Components built in-house indicates accountability and confidence.
Then, sorry to say, but it helps a lot to have done some of this stuff. Because anyone can read about upgraded caps, wires, connectors, transformers, etc. But when you have actually swapped them out and heard the difference with your own ears and in your own system, well then and probably only then do you have a real appreciation for what all the fancy words really mean. That's what I did. That's how I became adept at reading reviews.
Harley explains in chapter 6 why speaker impedance measurements are useful when matching to an amplifier (utilizing the amp’s impedance measurements). That’s why I asked. As a reader of Harley, I thought you’d be interested to see a measurements graph.
Yeah. I know. There's a bunch of technical factors like that, and some of them actually sometimes seem to matter. As opposed to listening impressions, which always do matter. When it comes to amps the most relevant technical factors are watts and dB. Even there however if sensitivity is anywhere north of 95 and watts are anywhere north of 20 odds are good you'll be happy.
I do not understand why you would use a then priced $2K budget amp to drive a pair of $10K-$15K Talons while spending $1,000s on tweaks apparently to use, as the reviewer says, to "dial in the desired tonal balance" and then suggesting same to newbies who may not need them because they bought a more balanced system. Just my take. On the other hand, I do agree with you the Raven amps seem like very good products.
Pretty sure that was one of the reviews I based my purchase on. The history at the time, my first amp was a McCormack DNA1. The Aronov LS960I replaced the DNA. The Aronov was better in every way, including bass slam, impact, and volume, in spite of it being 60 wpc vs 150. Then I foolishly tried a Jungson Class A SS that didn't last long. So there was a little gap between Aronov and Melody. Both used KT88 tubes. In spite of the time gap I would say they were very close. The Aronov just a shade more depth, a little more liquid. I suspect even the cheapest Raven will put the Melody to shame, even at half the power. But that's only a guess.
What I do know for sure and anyone who's been here will confirm my system is not by any stretch "lean and lacks ultimate slam". Far from it! There's absolutely zero "use of cables to dial in the desired tonal balance." I've been totally consistent in everything I've ever said, that is the last thing in the world I would ever do. I know its a common point of view. I take heat all the time for telling people to NOT "system match" like this. I refer to it as the band-aid approach. But that's part of what I mean about being adept at reading reviews. Don't hang on every word.
That said, the Melody is next on the list. None of this is the be all. Its all in constant, if slow, rotation. Very slow. Glacial. Yet look where its gotten me.
Besides cables there is also a tendency to think of tweaks as tone controls. That certainly is the case with some, but certainly not all, and I try hard to avoid any that depart very far from what I consider a middle of the road balance. I would say neutral but that's been misused so much it gets a bad rap.
I will be in the Great NW early July for 10 days celebrating
a friends 70th. If you have the Moabs by then I would certainly
enjoy a chance to hear them.
They're telling me one month, so even allowing for delays we should be able to do July. Fingers crossed!
That's the one thing I'm sure I don't want.
The whole low mass driver thing is poppycock
Again, not attacking Tekton
Right. Thanks for the history lesson.
Actually Schroeder’s comment was correct, if inadvertantly, as written. My system is indeed "seriously comprised." It is seriously comprised of components carefully selected to deliver the best sound quality for the dollar that I have been able to find and afford. Its also as stated earlier a work in progress. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Its just that as stated in my earlier post, the pace of upgrades is slow. Glacially slow. But glaciers move mountains, so....
Up until just a couple years ago my system was really well balanced. By well balanced I mean everything pulling together all links pretty much equally. Then over the last few years it went, in order, Herron, Koetsu, DBA, Blue, HFT, PHT, ECT, CTS, Euphoria, PPT, Orange, FC, and now Moab. Then I expect it will be Reflection, and then maybe SG. In other words it will be even more seriously comprised.
Why all the tweeters?
is it just a design thing?Would the array take away from a nice 6-7” midrange for guitar?
The tweeter array is a patented invention of Eric Alexander and unique to Tekton speakers. Eric is a professional drummer and speaker designer who was frustrated and trying to understand why speakers never sounded anything like live musical instruments.
One day he had an insight. A violin string playing 440 Hz also produces harmonics at 880, 1760, etc. A whole series of harmonics that we audiophiles call harmonic structure or timbre. Each instrument has its own timbral signature. Its one way we tell one from another. Speakers smear and muddy over these details making it hard to tell one instrument from another- oh and, blurring imaging, damping dynamics, losing efficiency.
The note we are trying to reproduce is coming from a violin string. Eric took the violin string, cut just the length that makes the tone, and found it is only about a third of a gram. Eric had the brilliant insight that speakers sound the way they do because we're asking 30 grams of moving speaker cone and coil to reproduce 0.3 grams of violin string. Of course dynamics and harmonics are going to be lost! Of course the details go missing!
The truly brilliant part though was figuring out we don't have to use one high mass driver. We can use a lot of low mass tweeters instead.
You asked about a nice 6-7" midrange for guitar? The tweeter array in the Moab is equivalent to a single 9" midrange driver!
Don't look at the Moab as a 17 way speaker. That's not what it is. Viewed correctly it is a three way. Fourteen of the tweeters aren't really tweeters, they are one 9" midrange. Only the one tweeter in the middle is actually a tweeter.
People complain these are standard off the shelf tweeters. Well, duh. That is not the point. The genius is not in building the next best super expensive driver. The genius is in understanding you want to accurately recreate the sound of something low mass, it can only be done with something low mass.
This probably more than anything else explains why so many are in love with ESLs. Very low moving mass. ESLs unfortunately are one technical problem after another. Eric's tweeter array takes standard off the shelf affordable and easy to drive speakers and makes them sound like an ESL, only better and with none of the disadvantages. It is pure genius.
The kicker is when Eric takes apart one of his tweeters, cuts up just the moving parts- the soft dome and the coil- and weighs them they come in at about a third of a gram. Same as the violin string! Eric now has a driver of about the same mass as the source of the sound it is trying to reproduce. So of course it sounds good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6xMt6Wj9JE&feature=emb_logo
Everything flows from this one design principle. Incredible detail pops out transparently, hard edges and listener fatigue vanishes, dynamics flow effortlessly, the most complex harmonic structures naturally rendered. All because Eric figured out how to make a 1" tweeter perform like a 9" midrange. Genius.
@millercarbon congrats on the acquisition those are some massive speakers and I bet they will sound great.
Can not wait for your review of those beasts.
Thanks. Me neither. Especially now that I just sold my Talons.
Like I said before I do a ton of research and mull things over for a very long time, but its not like I bookmark and cross reference everything and so today at work I'm killing time and the Audiophiliac is interviewing this guy and he's going on and on about all his favorite speakers, and this guy has a LOT of speakers, and other stuff, and I'm really getting worried because man he REALLY likes his Maggies and Snell and wow maybe I blew it until all of a sudden 5:55 into the interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RxRTFx6Cd0