Talon-New owner-NO customer service

Robbyat…thank you for your post and letting others know of your unfortunate experience with Rives Audio. While it is certainly true that Rives is entitled to charge whatever they wish to repair out of warranty Talon product, their willingness to do so, how they treat customers, and what they charge for their service reflects their business and ethics, even if it is a product no longer in current production. What I find disturbing about your experience, if it is in fact as you describe, is Rives failure to call you back when they said they would and their somewhat disappointing effort to help solve your problem. Repairing an amplifier should be a simple task for any manufacturer of audio components. At the very least they should have put you in touch with the manufacturer of the amplifier so that you could arrange for service. To suggest replacing an amplifier for $1600 because of a buzz that probably requires nothing more than a couple hours service and an off the shelf part or two, this to me shows a severe lack of principle and business ethics on the part of Rives. I don't think Richard Bird's suggestion of buying a Crown amp and leaving the customer to figure out a way to make it fit is the best solution.

Rives Audio announced their purchase of Talon in the beginning of August so I do not understand why Onhwy61 is making the assumption that you made a “poor decision” for purchasing a product from a company that was out of business, much less saying you “prefer to smear their name in a public forum” when the exposure of such experiences are clearly one of valid purposes of such forums (once again, assuming you have accurately described it). If you’ve only had the Roc for two months, clearly Talon has been a viable company during that period, albeit under new ownership. In fact, to the best of my knowledge Talon never actually went out of business (although there were concerns for a few months); in the end it simply changed hands.

Nrchy, Jeffcott, and Cleaneduphippy: I’m sorry, but I disagree with your comments and find they reflect the kind of attitude that has become all too indicative of the kind of companies whose focus is on how much money they can make in the short term rather than in customer service and support. Unfortunately high-end audio has its fair share of this type of business ethic. Fortunately there are still a large number of dedicated audio companies who share not only a passion for music and the technology that goes into its reproduction, but also appreciate and take care of their customers regardless of how they ended up owning one or more of their products. The reason that companies like Audio Research, Classe, Bryston, Aerial, Pass Labs, Thiel, Ayre, Vandersteen, Conrad Johnson, Jeff Rowland, and VPI, just to name a very few, have been successful and stayed in business for many years is they stand behind their products, even the ones that have been out of production for many years. All too often I think many audiophiles (and audio companies) forget how important the used market is. Audio companies need those with lesser means who take advantage of depreciation cycles to buy up the equipment from those who can afford and want to get their latest product. Just because they are not buying new does not mean that they are not supporting the company whose product they’ve chosen to purchase. When it comes to loudspeakers there are more choices than any other audio component and a great deal of competition. A strong used market for any product, as well as a strong new market, is good for both the manufacturer and the consumer.

Here are two examples of good customer service from my own experience, one directly related to Talon:

I own a Pass Labs Aleph P preamplifier. Technically I’m the 3rd owner although I don’t think the 2nd owner held on to it long enough to really listen to it. Upon its arrival it had a loud hum. The fellow I purchased it from gave me his FedEx account for shipping both ways to and from Pass Labs and offered to pay for any repairs (he also gave me $200 off my purchase price for the inconvenience…very nice seller). I contacted Pass Labs and even though it was out of warranty and I told them I was not the original owner I could not have asked to have been treated better. They repaired the unit at no charge, but did bill the sellers FedEx account for return shipping. Upon arrival I found it was still a bit noisy so I contacted Pass again who were very apologetic and asked me to return it again. They pretty much rebuilt the power supply and once again at no charge to me even though it was out of warranty and I was not the original owner. This time they even paid for return shipping to me. They also put anything they repair in a new box. I have read other similar comments here about Pass Labs exemplary customer service.

Two years ago I bought a pair of Talon Khorus loudspeakers from the original owner, mostly because it was a local sale (and I’d read all the rave reviews). One of the grill covers was damaged by the first owner and he had let me know that he would purchase a replacement set for me from Talon. On the day that I took delivery of the speakers I was quite surprised to receive a phone call from Talon asking me where I would like the new grills sent, and if they could be of any assistance in my set up of the speakers. I spent the better part of an hour talking with Mike Farnsworth about set up and crossovers. He offered to sell me the latest version of the X crossover for $750 (at the time Talon’s advertised price for a new crossover was $1500, $2000 installed plus shipping both ways). I’m pretty handy technically so he also offered to walk me through the install over the phone so it would not be necessary to spend several hundred extra in shipping expense. It is unfortunate that events in Mike’s personal life resulted in his not having the necessary time or energy to put into running Talon because he certainly was good with his customers.

“Rives has been a LONG time member and contributor to this board, and has many times gone WAY out of his way to help others. To many here, his reputation is WELL known and appreciated.”

Jeffcott, the old saying ‘action speaks louder than words’ applies here. You are right that Rives is pretty outspoken on this forum, but then they are not the first manufacturer to use such forums…it’s a good form of marketing afterall. So far we only have one side of this story and a lot of opinions on how it should be interpreted. Perhaps Rives will join in and offer his side of the story, but until that time we’ll just have to go with the experience Robbyat has described. I do find it interesting that a few here are so willing to come to Rives’ defense when someone has a complaint about the service they received.

“Most active subwoofer amps don't last long...that why the warranty is usually very short. I agree with Undertow, subs are very simple to work on...IMO, get another amp from parts express if that one can't be fixed...$300-$400.”

Sogood51, where on earth did you come up with this statistic? I have rarely heard of problems with quality brands such as Velodyne, REL, or Hsu, one of which I’ve owned for a long time with no problems. Perhaps you’re thinking of the cheap crap sold with a lot of inexpensive HT gear. There is no reason why a quality made subwoofer amp should not last as long as any other well made amp. And for those occasional repairs that are required I doubt many here owning high-end caliber subs are going to want to throw just any old plate amp in as a replacement.

Finally, the Talon Roc is not an ‘orphan’ product, but still part of the Talon line. Apparently they have switched sources for amps in their current production and the price is $1600, probably as much as or even than more than Robbyat paid for his Roc. Personally, I’d attempt some of the constructive comments in this thread if you’re not technically challenged. If these don’t bring success look for a good local amplifier tech or try to locate the OEM and see what they have to offer. The Roc is a great product and worth a little effort on your part to find a solution.

And now Richard, it’s your turn. As a very happy Talon owner I hope you will have some encouraging words to add to this discussion.

CLEANEDUPHIPPY:

(Great username by the way!) To answer your question I would say the best manufactures, which by definition are the most customer service oriented, do not draw a line at all. Rather they take pride in their product(s) and stand behind them when a problem arises. This is not to say that they are not entitled to charge a reasonable amount for servicing products that are out of warranty, certainly they are, but my question to you would be what possible difference does it make who the owner is or how they acquired said manufacture’s product? Why should a manufacturer care whether the current owner is the original owner, or second, or even tenth? With the exception of possible future revenue from out of warranty service and parts (or upgrades) the manufacturer already made their money when they sold to the dealer. How often do we see dealers blowing out their demo equipment, or items that just didn’t sell, for at or near dealer cost with full manufacturer warranty? It is how manufactures stand behind their product after the sale that is important, not who the current owner may be.

By second and third parties I assume you are referring to the marketing of used equipment by dealers and private sellers. While it is true that many manufactures are very careful about protecting their dealer’s interests and want to be sure that their product is properly demonstrated and represented, this applies only to new product and our discussion here is about used gear. Once that initial sale is complete and the product is in the field there is no dealer network to be concerned with, so it brings us back to the question of business ethics and how a manufacturer supports product once it is in the field. My argument is it is not only ethical, but a good business practice to stand behind your product even years after the original sale.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that only original purchasers buying product from authorized dealers deserve quality service from the manufacturer. It is this point that I am in disagreement with. I am certain that the companies I mentioned in my earlier post do not feel this way and they are all extremely successful. Many companies offer transferable warranties to subsequent owners. One of the most successful manufactures of high-end and pro-sound amplification in the world is Bryston who offers a 20 year warranty. They track their amps by serial number and could care less about who owns it (it is my understanding that Bryston has never charged anyone for repair service regardless of the age of the unit). Bryston also maintains such high quality of manufacture, parts quality, and design that their amplifiers rarely fail in the field, thus ensuring them minimal warranty expense.

I am not saying I am sympathetic to Robyatt as I was not privy to his conversations with Rives or even know if he is being completely truthful. I made a point of qualifying this when I stated “if it is in fact as you describe” and later commenting that we “so far only had his side of the story.” So my comments have nothing to do with sympathy for his situation, but rather are directed toward business ethics and issues of a manufacture’s responsibility in supporting what they sell. Obviously not all companies are shining examples of customer service, but clearly some are as my earlier examples clearly show. As a very satisfied Talon owner, and the fact that Talon has only recently changed hands, you can understand my desire to express my view on this subject.

“Apparently, you feel that manufacturer should "bend over backwards" to take care of the problem.”

No, I do not and certainly not in this case where there is no standing warranty. My only expectation would be that the manufacturer stand behind the product and make every effort to rectify the problem in as timely a manner as possible, regardless of how and when it was acquired. My own experience with Pass Labs described above is an exemplary example, and one could even go so far as to say they ‘bent over backwards’ to keep one of their products up to spec, especially given they did not charge me anything even though it was out of their stated warranty period.

“To expect Talon/Rives to go the "extra mile" for the second owner is unrealistic because let's face it, neither Talon or Rives made any money on that second sale.”

I fail to see your logic in this statement. Manufactures never have, and never will, make any money on subsequent used sales of their product, but if they expect to receive good press and reviews, and the loyal customer base that usually follows, they sure better stand behind their product, and treat all their customers the same. As I stated earlier, the used market is an important part of our economy and a wise manufacturer knows this to be true. The customer who buys a used product not only makes it possible for the original owner to upgrade to the newest product, but very often will buy upgrades from the manufacturer for the older product, or even new product in the future.

“More and more you're starting to see disclaimers from manufacturers about products sold over the Internet and through unauthorized dealers and second and third parties. Don't believe me, starting visiting some of their websites.”

I am aware of this, but once again you are talking about new product, not used. This tends to apply more to really large corporations like Sony that distribute worldwide, and it should be clearly stated in their warranty. If you buy a Nikon camera in the US and expect Nikon USA to provide warranty service you had better be sure that you get it from an authorized US Nikon dealer. It is Nikon USA in California that is providing the warranty service, not Nikon in Japan. Same goes for some brands of audio equipment. In some instances importers such as Nikon USA will not even repair gray market equipment as a way of encouraging people to spend the extra money for authorized US product. As you are probably aware, most reputable dealers of high-end audio equipment who sell via the Internet are restricted by certain manufactures and will not sell those brands if they are available in your local area. Some manufacturers will not allow their dealers to sell mail order at all. But make no mistake, the Internet is here to stay, and as we are all becoming increasingly aware, the brick and mortar model of marketing product will never be the same. In the world of high-end audio, even in larger metropolitan areas it is becoming difficult, if not impossible, to audition and purchase many brands of audio equipment, even that of quite successful companies. As stated in my post above, I purchased my Talon Khorus loudspeakers from the original owner because it was a local sale (he had purchased them in another state before relocating here) and prior to that it was not possible to for me to even hear them without getting on an airplane, much less in my own listening room. I felt very fortunate to find them at all in my local area.

RIVES:

Thanks for joining in here and offering some ‘encouraging words.’ As a Talon owner it is nice to know you are there to provide service should the need ever arise. Your explanation of the situation with Robyatt’s model of the Roc makes perfect sense to me and it’s good to know your side of the story.

JEFFCOTT:

Thanks for your kind words and for the clarification. You make a good and valid point about the risks and potential rewards inherent in the used market. It has become my habit whenever buying a product, new or used, to become aware of what to expect in terms of service. Before buying a used item I have often called the manufacturer to let them know that I was considering the purchase of one of their products used and to ask questions. The type of response you get goes a long way to telling you what kind of a company you are dealing with. In high-end audio often you are even talking to the owner. In my experience I have never contacted a manufacturer and not had a positive response to purchasing one of their products used.

Thanks also for sharing your perception of Robyatt’s first post here on Audiogon. Going back and re-reading it I can see how his complaint could have been expressed differently and how it could be interpreted as a direct flame. As I write this it has been 3 days since he posted here and yet he has had nothing further to say on the subject. Given all of the response this thread has generated I find it odd that he has nothing more to offer, especially since Rives response. None-the-less, it has provided for a thoughtful discussion.