System synergies: Chaotic or predictable?


When speaking of system "synergies", do you consider these to be chaotic? or are they a predictable sum of the character of the components?  I'm surprised at people who think they can predict the sound of a system from their perceptions of the components (derived, in turn, from other system combinations), and even more surprised and suspicious of the 'tone control' approach to purchasing cables and amplifiers suggested by another forum member (who does happen to be a dealer). 

I think these two views are contradictory. If we think that components have 'magical' synergies beyond our ability to measure, then it seems unlikely that we also can predict how combinations of components will sound.

ahofer
Moreover, chances look good the Mind Lamp has been out of production for some time. I became a dealer ten years ago. That’s a lotta H2O under the bridge 🌉 For more info Google PEAR Princeton Engineering Anomaly Research. Psyleron was the spinoff. There’s also ICRL International Consciousness Research Laboratories, formerly PEAR.
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You are right Geoff morphic fields in the idea of Sheldrake dont reduce to maths...Maths dont explain them actually... But there is the possibility  evident in maths for a universal field of information and that was my point...If there is an ideal universal field of information-memory then the idea of Sheldrake no more seems foolish at all, for me at least...My best.
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A moderately clever person using my Super Stiff Springs for speakers can accomplish the same thing as the rather expensive competition for 1/10 the cost. Talk amongst yourselves. Smoke if ya got em. And I can isolate the entire system with a combo of SSS and Baby Prometheans for a surprisingly low total cost. The deeper you go the higher you fly. 
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This thread started with the topic of system synergy. I have experienced being able to match components based on how I thought they would sound together. So far my guesses have been 75% successful. I had a NAD preamp and a Rotel power amp combination that sounded terrific with the Mission M772's that were my 2 channel mains, at the time. I decided to upgrade (or move laterally) to some Paradigm Titan Monitor v.6's. I knew the Rotel to be a bit harsh in the upper frequencies, but the Paradigms made it painful. I sold the electronics and found an Arcam FMJ A19 being sold for $250 below retail, NIB. Night and day better. The balanced tonality of the amp with the Titans was like Mid-FI magic. Now I have upgraded my speakers to some Revel M-16's and the magical synergy is once again, gone. The real problem is the much lower efficiency of the Revels vs the Paradigms. They sound much better, but 50 WPC @ 8 ohms is not enough power to make them really sing. Wish I still had the Rotel power amp I sold. I'm looking for another one. RA 980 BX, or 981, 990, etc.
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kosst_amojan2,493 posts08-09-2019 2:03pmBiology is governed by physics because biology is based on chemistry. Chemistry is a mathematical science.

Chemistry is actually not a mathematical science. Nor is biology. You should have listened to you mom and stayed in high school. Snap out of it!

Wiki to the rescue:

The branches of science,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_science

Pt. 1 - Chemistry
In the scope of its subject, chemistry occupies an intermediate position between physicsand biology.[3] It is sometimes called the central science because it provides a foundation for understanding both basic and applied scientific disciplines at a fundamental level.[4] For example, chemistry explains aspects of plant chemistry (botany), the formation of igneous rocks (geology), how atmospheric ozone is formed and how environmental pollutants are degraded (ecology), the properties of the soil on the moon (astrophysics), how medications work (pharmacology), and how to collect DNA evidence at a crime scene (forensics).

Pt. 2 - Mathematics

The mathematical sciences are a group of areas of study that includes, in addition to mathematics, those academic disciplines that are primarily mathematical in nature but may not be universally considered subfields of mathematics proper.

Statistics, for example, is mathematical in its methods but grew out of scientific observations[1] which merged with inverse probability and grew through applications in the social sciences, some areas of physics and biometrics to become its own separate, though closely allied field. Computer science, computational science, data science, population genetics, operations research, control theory, cryptology, econometrics, theoretical physics, fluid mechanics, chemical reaction network theory and actuarial science are other fields that may be considered part of mathematical sciences.


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Get your room sorted first. It makes it more speaker and system friendly.

A lot of the swapping of cables, power cords, even speakers, I see start from inadequate room treatment, or if the acoustics can't be changed, speakers which are not going to work in specific rooms.

In other words, less room treatment really narrows your choices.

Biology is the natural science that studies life and living organisms, including their physical structure, chemical processes, molecular interactions, physiological mechanisms, development and evolution.

Morphic resonance is a theory; like any theory it doesn’t have to obey arbitrary rules for what a theory must contain. That would be silly. Theories can be completely original. E.g., Einstein’s theory of Relativity. That’s how we expand our knowledge. A theory does not require proof, but, like Morphic resonance, often contains evidence.

There is much evidence for Morphic resonance, if one looks. Obviously, if one doesn’t look, he will not see any evidence. 😬 The theory of Morphic resonance involves Morphic fields, which actually do not obey the physical laws of fields such as electrical fields, magnetic fields, mathematical fields, etc. - nor are they required to. Nor do all types of magnetic fields obey the same laws.

The theory of Morphic resonance does include many of the basis concepts of the field of biology listed in the first paragraph above - chemical processes, physiological mechanisms and evolution, the latter being a primary part of Sheldrake’s theory as well as memory.

From Wikipedia - The sense of hearing - The sound information from the cochlea travels via the auditory nerveto the cochlear nucleusin the brainstem. From there, the signals are projected to the inferior colliculusin the midbraintectum. The inferior colliculusintegrates auditory input with limited input from other parts of the brain and is involved in subconscious reflexes such as the auditory startle response.

The inferior colliculus in turn projects to the medial geniculate nucleus, a part of the thalamuswhere sound information is relayed to the primary auditory cortexin the temporal lobe. Sound is believed to first become consciously experienced at the primary auditory cortex. Around the primary auditory cortexlies Wernickes area, a cortical area involved in interpreting sounds that is necessary to understand spoken words.

Disturbances (such as strokeor trauma) at any of these levels can cause hearing problems, especially if the disturbance is bilateral. In some instances it can also lead to auditory hallucinationsor more complex difficulties in perceiving sound.

Obviously audio involves both physics and biology. So, I actually your contention that biology theories are irrelevant to audio is a Strawman argument, a logical fallacy.


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I live in the future. That’s why I seem to know more than you do, no offense. I come back here because they don’t have audio forums in the future. They were destroyed by too many argumentative knuckleheads and know it alls. I come back here strictly for the jokes and chit chat. 
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Hey, millercarbon, thanks for posting the link. That’s mighty decent if ya! Here’s an excerpt from my opus on Morphic Fields for Audiophiles,

“So, let's start with the hypothesis that information itself produces detrimental information fields and that those things, the electronic devices, that bring that information into the house, that are essentially the LINKS to the OUTSIDE WORLD OF INFORMATION, are also detrimental to the sound. Thus, TVs, computers, cell phones, as well as LPs, CDs, DVDs, Blu Ray discs, cassettes, I.e., all music and video media, produce detrimental info fields. i won't even get into books, magazines, newspapers, bank statements, telephone books and bar codes. So while it's nice to collect these CDs and records and have them all nicely arranged on the shelf the more you have the worse the sound gets. Sorry to be the one to break it to you. You're just not aware of the degradation of the sound because it happens over a long period of time - and even if you were clued into the degradation who would suspect the CDs, right? Who would suspect information fields? I mean, really. But I digress.”

kosst_amojan
The true test of a theory is whether it has explanatory and predictive powers in reality which are verifiable through experiment. No thought Sheldrake has ever produced measures up to that standard. Who cares if his dopey ideas match up with a mathematical theory? Mathematical theories only matter if they describe reality, and LOTS of mathematical theories and concepts are merely philosophical puzzles with no application in reality at all. It proves nothing.

>>>>>Not sure what you’re trying to say but Morphic fields are not the same thing as mathematical field theory. It’s not a mathematical theory. It’s a biology theory. Before you can attack a theory you kind of have to know what it is you’re attacking, yes? Of course if you want to attack blindly.... 😎 

Besides, Morphic resonance was proven in a contest. 😬
I should probably point out that the mathematical terminology information field theory is not (rpt not) what I am referring to when I use the term, information fields, which I equate to Morphic fields and Morphic resonance.


Tell them Jim, tell em! Tell em about the Morphic fields! http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm
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I should probably point out that the mathematical terminology information field theory is not (rpt not) what I am referring to when I use the term, information fields, which I equate to Morphic fields and Morphic resonance. 

Information field theory (IFT) is a Bayesian statistical field theory relating to signal reconstruction, cosmography, and other related areas.[1][2] IFT summarizes the information available on a physical field using Bayesian probabilities. It uses computational techniques developed for quantum field theory and statistical field theory to handle the infinite number of degrees of freedom of a field and to derive algorithms for the calculation of field expectation values. For example, the posterior expectation value of a field generated by a known Gaussian process and measured by a linear device with known Gaussian noisestatistics is given by a generalized Wiener filter applied to the measured data. IFT extends such known filter formula to situations with nonlinear physics, nonlinear devices, non-Gaussian field or noise statistics, dependence of the noise statistics on the field values, and partly unknown parameters of measurement. For this it uses Feynman diagrams, renormalisation flow equations, and other methods from mathematical physics.[3]
Some have linked the universality property with the measure of the path integrals in quantum theory... Then I dont think that information field is an idea for flat-earthers anymore...I apologize for this rant, but I dont like to be call  "flat-earther" ….My best to all.
Part of interview with David Bohm, an American scientist who has been described as one of the most significant theoreticalphysicists of the 20th century[2] and who contributed unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, neuropsychology and the philosophy of mind.

Bohm: In 1951 or there about, another interpretation where I said that the electron is a particle for example and than it has a quantum field represented mathematically by its wavefunction. And this field and the particle are together and they … the properties, the quantum properties of the electron.

It is a new kind of field. We now classicly have many fields like the electromagnetic field. The electromagnetic field for example… like it spread through space. The elecric field makes radiowaves radiating through space.

The quantum field is different, it has some similarities but it is different, because the effect of the quantum field depends only on the form and not on the intensity.

If you think of a waterwave, it is spreading out, the core … the more it spreads out the less the core …

Now the quantum field would be capable of, sometimes, of spreading out the electron of far away move with the same energy of move close. This would be the kind of information of a discrete quantum process.

Interviewer: So you have a field that does not drop off?

Bohm: The field drops off, but its effect does not. The effect only depends on the form, not on the intensity.

Interviewer: That is weird!

Bohm: That is not so weird. In fact it is very common, but we generally don’t pay attention to it.
If you take for example a radio wave. Its effect falls of. Now imagine a ship, guided by radar on an automatic pilot. The guidance does not depend on the intensity of the wave. It depends only on the form, we may say, that carries information.


There exist a maths definition of potential information fields in number theory by Voronin theorem :

(Read amazing corollary 3) If you linked Voronin theorem to the implicate order of David Bohm or to some quatum mechanics, you will see why Bohm does not thank of  the Sheldrake idea s that they are "stupid" or irrational... 

S.C. Woon, "Riemann zeta function is a fractal" (preprint 06/94)

"[We] infer three corollaries from Voronin’s theorem [on the ’universality’ of the Riemann zeta function]. The first is interesting, the second is a strange and amusing consequence, and the third is ludicrous and shocking (but a consequence nevertheless)."

"Corollary 1 ("interesting") Riemann zeta function is a fractal."

Woon’s innovation here is to devise analytic function f based on the zeta function itself (involving translations and rescalings), in order to show that zeta replicates its own behaviour infinitely often at all scales.

"Since ao can be arbitrarily chosen, there are self-similarities at all scales. Therefore, Riemann zeta function is a fractal."

He goes on to show that you can choose f to be based on the zeta function not only via translation and dilation, but also invovling rotation and reflection. The result is that we have self-similarities between discs at different scales and orientations."

"Riemann zeta function is fractal in the sense that the Mandelbrot set is fractal (self-similarities between a region bounded by a closed loop C and other regions bounded by closed Cm’ of the same shape at smaller scales and/or orientations). The fractal property of zeta is not "infinitely recursive" as in Koch snowflake. Such infinite recursions in a function will render the function non-differentiable, whereas zeta is infinitely differentiable. So, the manifold of zeta function is not of fractal dimension."

"All Dirichlet L-functions are also fractal. This follows from the remark following Voronin’s theorem in Voronin’s paper."

"Corollary 2 ("strange and amusing") Riemann zeta function is a ’library’ of all possible smooth continuous line drawings in a plane."

Imagine all the ways an analytic function can map a line segment, say the vertical diameter of |z| < 1/4, into the complex plane. Woon points out that every imaginable kind of shape (an outline Mickey Mouse is used as an example) can be drawn in this way. It then follows from the Universality Theorem that the zeta function’s behaviour on segments of Re[s] = 3/4 (or any other line between 1/2 and 1) can replicate any such shape.

"Corollary 3 ("ludicrous and shocking") Riemann zeta function is a concrete "representation" of the giant book of theorems referred to by Paul Halmos."

Woon explains that you can represent arbitrarily long Morse code messages as oscillating curves representing ’signals’. Every possible one of these messages is reproducible to within a workable accuracy by the zeta function. So the entire Encylopedia Britannica could be deduced as a Morse Code transmission encoded as a wave which was the image of a vertical segment of length 1/2 on Re[s] = 3/4 under the Riemann zeta function.

"So... the entire human knowledge are already encoded in zeta function."

"Hence, Riemann zeta function is probably one of the most remarkable functions because it is a concrete "representation" (in group theory sense) of "the God’s giant book of theorems" that Paul Halmost spoke of - all possible theorems and texts are already encoded in some form in Riemann zeta function, and repeated infinitely many times. Although a white noise function and an infinite sequence of random digits are also concrete "representations", Riemann zeta function is not white noise or random but well-defined.

Alternatively, from the point of view of information theory, even though Riemann zeta function is well-defined, its mappings in the right half of the critical strip are random enough to encode arbitrary large amount of information - the "entropy" of its mapping is infinite.

Example This article is also encoded somewhere in Riemann zeta function as it is being written!"

S.C. Woon, "Fractals of the Julia and Mandelbrot sets of the Riemann zeta function" (preprint 12/98)

"Computations of the Julia and Mandelbrot sets of the Riemann zeta function and observations of their properties are made. In the appendix section, a corollary of Voronin’s theorem is derived and a scale-invariant equation for the bounds in Goldbach conjecture is conjectured."


If you could make up a name for someone who had a new-fangled crazy idea that contradicted much of what we were taught so nonchalantly in school it would be difficult to beat Rupert Sheldrake. I’ll grant you that. Cambridge PhD Biology may or may not help. 😬 Count Istvan Teleky was a good name. 
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Alert 🚨 The Sheldrake connection to Machina Dynamica. As fate would have it at least six count ‘em! of my products are based on Morphic resonance, the concept developed by Sheldrake and for audio applications by Peter Belt. The most obvious examples of my products are Morphic Message Labels but also the Teleportation Tweak and Quantum Temple Bell. There is an increasingly fine line between Morphic Resonance and quantum physics AND classical physics. 
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