"Can the room make that much of a difference?
Yes, IMHO, the room should be considered the MOST
important component in your system.
Keep trying with room placement and setup. You will
slowly get it dialed in.
It's a journey not a sprint...
My suggestion would be this: If you presently have the speakers along the 16' wall move them to the 32' wall, or vice-versa. This will definitely affect the bass balance and imaging so it will provide you with a clear impression of which placement works best in that particular room.
Sometimes you can put the speakers across a corner (with the corner in the center of the two speakers and get good results but I would try my first suggestion before trying the speakers across a corner.
Rooms can make all the difference between WOW!! and ho-hum, as you are learning. And if you don't have a good AC power conditioner or power regenerator in your system, I'd suggest that you look into getting one.
No one can say for sure, but from looking at your system, your amps may not be up to the task of running those speakers in a room that big. If you can borrow an amp from a friend or local dealer, that would probably be a good first move. If you can't borrow one, Cable Company has amps to send out for demo.
Beg to differ...
Suggest not considering any gear changes until well after exploring room setup and possibly treatment first.
Start with Cardas Speaker Placement: http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php
You try both ways on long or shorter walls.
Your seating distance should make about an equilateral triangle with the speakers, or experiment with the seat a foot or two further back. Even 6 inch increments can change the way your ears interact with the room. Little strips of tape on the floor at various increments can make it easy to repeat the placement of the speakers & seat. Try a few combos with a couple of hours of listening at each.
Try something absorptive or diffusive at the 1st and 2nd reflection points which are easily found by moving a mirror along the wall until you see each speakers' reflection easily from the sweet spot. These are key locations to avoid glass framed pictures etc. Echo, treble-ringing etc. are what's affected.
Bass traps in the corners on the front wall are quite often a big help. To get an idea, you can drop a couple of rolls of pink fiberglass insulation (you can even keep in the plastic bags) in the front corners. Also try a heavier fabric blanket etc. hung on the wall between the speakers. These temp. steps will give you a "quick & dirty" idea of what proper room treatment will do for you.
Lots of useful threads in the archives here on setup, also in Ethan Winer's forum on Audio Asylum. Cheers,
What once was a marvelous listening experience has turned into a diffuse, muffled, lifeless, boring system!
If these symptoms are particularly extreme, they would seem to be consistent with a polarity reversal in one (and only one) channel.
Just to be sure something simple isn't being overlooked, are you certain that + and - aren't reversed on one of the speakers, or on the corresponding amp terminals? Also, if you are using XLR cables for any of the analog interconnections in the system, that you weren't using in the previous location, a wiring error in one of the cables (interchanging pins 2 and 3 at one end) would have the same effect. Perhaps an erroneous setting in your playback software could also do the same.
Also, what DAC are you using?
I would not rule out either wiring or amp power shortage. Easy to recheck wiring. But you also should remember that your listening space volume has increased by about 65% and room length has doubled! Those are big differences. How has your listening distance changed?
"How has your listening distance changed?" What I was wondering also. How I'd love to have a room that size again!
Would you please take some pics of the room from all major angles (1st from seating position, then from N, S, E, W so we can see what the room looks like, boundaries, etc....Also, what's the status of furnishings, wall & window coverings, etc.....if something is eating sound, be it room geometry or other factors, seeing what it all looks like and how it is laid out will help.
It usually takes quite a bit of time to dial a system in when setting up in a new room. You have to discover where the nodes are and which ones to avoid. And most of all, make sure there are enough furnishings and/or room treatments to avoid a sonic nightmare.
On paper, the new room should be far better than your old one. Just be patient and figure it out.
Good advice from sbank and shakey.
A Cardas set up is a good place to start with your speaker. Variations in recommendations are permissible. Don't get too anal.:-)
Your room has an inherent problem dimension wise, and that is the multiples, i.e. 16x2 = 32 and 8x16 &32 are multiples. This can cause substantial nulls and nodes in your room which can make the lower mids down thru the bass seem either boomy or thin. These can be difficult to tame but a lot of headway can be made by close attention to listening chair and speaker placement. Inches can matter a whole lot. It really helps if you have a sound pressure level meter and an audio frequency test disc so you can measure the SPL at various frequencies at the listening position and make adjustments. I would do this BEFORE I tried to tame or change the room itself by using absorbers/reflectors/traps etc which IMHO should only be used to fine tune after you have identified and understand the room and have found the best positions of the speakers and listening seat. This is not a quick fix however, it takes a lot of time and attention to detail! I would also recommend that you resist the recommendations to buy equipment until you figure out your best set up. Compared to room/set up issues, equipment changes are minor and will just have you chasing your tail! :-)
BTW, do not overlook toe in issues, including using that to minimize first reflection points.
Good luck with your project. Been there, done that, and it probably took me over a year to really get it done right.
Many years ago after removing a 65" tv from between the speakers, it took MONTHS and MONTHS ... to get it to sound good again. The tv acts like a front wall reinforcement ... basically just had to re-position the speakers again.
I think your system should work in the new room so just keep tweaking speaker placement.
Yes, the room does make a difference. For better or worse, it is the most important component of any rig. Keep me posted & happy listening!
Sorry for having checked out from my post for a bit. Graduated from Seminary and finally getting some time. In regards to my DAC, its a Sonore DSD and quite wonderful.
The room is 15 X 27. I'm ordering OC 703 for first reflection locations and corners
Tried changing tubes from 845M to 845C. Worse...changed back!
I sit in equal triangle or a tad further.I move forward or backward and try to lock-in that magic distance. Volents don't need toe-in...very wide dispersion characteristics these ribbon tweeters have.
Overall...some music sounds incredible..except in the bass which continues to be very ill-defined...I hate it. But mid-bass on up is awesome. Though I am talking about tonality/timbre not so much soundstage accuracy.
In short, the more variety in the music I play the more I get confused. Things just popping in and out of the soundstage like I've never heard before.
How do I post the pics?
"In short, the more variety in the music I play the more I get confused. Things just popping in and out of the soundstage like I've never heard before."
Go to 1 of your speakers and swap the speaker cables position on the binding posts. Put the cable that was on the + post on the -, and put the - on the + post. Just do it on 1 speaker, not both, and then do some listening. If this fixes your problem, you shouldn't have any trouble hearing it rather quickly.
Arent 845M and 845C the same tubes? Both metal plate shuguangs just different pulls? The M may have better qc.... Correct me if I'm wrong.
If you send an in-mail, we can trade real email addresses then you can attach them an email and send over. No way to post them here unless you have a virtual system listing to attach them to of post a photo-share URL. Email is much easier....