Support table or shelf for turntable

Why not provide a link to your current support?

Since your table is obviously not subject to footfalls. I suggest you might want to consider what I have done, which is to use a Brightstar Audio isolation platform, which is basically a sandbox. I believe that may really help in your situation.

I also use a Target wall mount platform for isolation from the floor to support my Garrard 401, which has a heavy plinth of MDF, and is clad in solid Purpleheart, the face being 1" thick, side and top panels between 5/16" and 1/2" thick, and is coupled to the Brightstar with Edensound Bear Paws, which are 3" X 3" solid brass footers, and weigh 6 lbs. each.

This has worked well for me. This may have been mentioned in this thread already, but adding dampening (weight) to your support table may also help. 

Best of luck, regards,
Dan

No idea what your current table looks like, but just remember everything can pick up vibration, though the table and shelf you posted (particularly the table) don't seem to have many large surfaces to pick vibrations up, other than their 'work' surface. So they're probably better than what you've now, but no garauntee they'll not have any other issues

@slaw , @toddverrone,  you can see my table in systems. ( no one seems to loom there)
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1593

@islandmandan Thanks Dan. I’ll look into your suggestion. Although, with the new slate, when it arrives in a few weeks, I was hoping for something less massive and "constructed"... trying to keep it simple. Taut and rigid. The good news is that I have procured an Audio Grail 401 for the slate plinth.

Took a quick look, I find it fascinating that since you feel the oak is causing the "pick up" of vibrations that you use marble slabs under your TT footers?

In my experience this is a double negative. Marble adds mass but acts as a microphone.

What material isolates the oak shelf from the rack? What are you using as the rack legs interface to floor?

"Taut and rigid" seems like a good approach but actually this approach allows structural vibration to be transmitted *more easily* than "flexible and wobbly." This was the idea behind the Flexy Rack of yore. It’s also the idea behind isolation (decoupling) per se since the best isolation is obtained when the object being isolated is *free to move* in the directions of interest. I would like to see the object be able to undulate and wobbly slowly up and down and back and forth when manually pushed a little bit. Thus, roller bearings and springs ALLOW motion rather than CONSTRAIN it. Marble and granite are good materials as top plates for isolation stands due to their stiffness and mass. The quick fix the set up at hand would be to place low profile compression springs under the components on the table. The required spring rate of the springs and number of springs are not difficult to calculate. Problem solved!

I double what geoffkait just said.

It depends on your approach and your budget.

If you are dead set on keeping what you have, here goes...

Invest in a slightly larger Maple platform of 3" thick and slightly wider than your current rack dimensions. Install (3) Brass feet (into) this platform. Then add another maple platform on top of that decoupled by load rated springs, (hopefully you have the ability to or will have someone line these platforms up and recess the springs by 1’8" inch into the bottom/top.

This will add 5"? to your current set-up? I assume this won’t matter since your components are already in the "line of fire", so to speak.

This will completely decouple your rack from the floor.

Now that your rack/system is decoupled from the floor...you can begin to address your components as geoffkait mentioned.

To mention your marble again.. most materials are not perfectly level. While it may seem the oak platform or the marble mates well, most likely there is a big void in how these items mate, (in audio isolation terms) that compounds the very problem you are trying to avoid. So, most of the time a ball bearing type of interface or a spike is the best way to transfer vibrations. Not always though.

The basics first, is the best approach.

I can appreciate your current set-up.

Upon reconsideration, I believe you could now see improvements from a total isolation/sonic perspective? Right?

Good luck!

You may find this helpful in explaining the benefits and pitfalls of different solutions: http://symposiumusa.com/UltraAnalog.html

I like the idea of both "isolating" the rig from external vibration while simultaneously draining the plinth and bearing of vibration through transmission to the constrained layer platform.

I am in the process of installing an Ultra Platform under my TNT with a separate custom Super Plus mini-platform underneath the motor/flywheel assembly, all on top of my existing BrightStar Big Rock/Sound Anchors stand. Hoping to complete the project this week.

Dave

Thanks everyone for the valued suggestions. I’ll study up in more detail all the notes kindly supplied. Thanks.
A few points to clarify:

1. Remember the new rig will (hopefully) be a rebuilt 401 in a slate plinth.
   
2. The issue I’m facing is that when I knock on the oak table legs or lower cross-member, I hear it through the speakers. I reckon if I can hear it, so to can the 401.
   
3. I want to get rid of the oak table anyway and take the LP12 out of the equation. It was a temp solution years ago and now i want to deal with it.
   
4. The granite blocks: I originally had the TT on the concrete floor on felt pads. It sounded great. I moved it to the oak table and it lost a lot - woolly and smeared. I added the 3 x granite blocks and it made the world of difference - 90% of the floor set up. I then added the steel cones pointing up and touching the underside of the plinth, and this made it sound better than the floor. This is the way it has been for a few years. Because of this experience, I feel the 401 works best when everything is as rigid as possible.
   
5. Before going the (complex) springs route, I’d really like to try something like a wall mounted table. See these brackets. Wall mounted with upward pointing spikes into say a 2" maple top plate. I’m uncertain what type of feet to add between the slate plinth and the maple. Rollerblocks?
   

I use cones  (Bearpaws) under my turntable and found it a very valuable upgrade.  Tried other things without that level of success.

The springs route isn’t all that complex, I’m more than happy to help where I can..

Placing my turnable on a spring suspended butcher block platform reduced significantly any sounds caused by hitting my rack. I really have to hit it hard to get any sound to transfer to the speakers.
If the coupling/shelf route doesn’t quite work 100%, you should definitely consider springs.
That being said, rollerblocks seem like they'd add isolation in the horizontal plane as well as isolation from torsion, which certainly wouldn't hurt.

Noromance, I hope I am not pointing out the obvious here, but the slate, by itself, won't isolate your 401/plinth from your existing table (if I'm understanding this right, not knowing if the slate will be on the top of the plinth, or under it). Isolation from the table is the key to success.

If you would, please report the outcome, for we of curious minds.

Regards,
Dan

@islandmandan Yes, I know that the slate will not isolate the table. I want to try the slate plinth as I believe that the birch-ply, while excellent at damping TT generated noise, is also responsible for a little smearing and subsequent loss of some detail. The relatively difficult, and frankly, cumbersome efforts to isolate the table can be ameliorated by wall mounting to concrete and keeping the structural hardware to a minimum.

Actually, slate or marble or granite, assuming it’s not too thin, provides significant isolation against rotational forces attempting to bend the plate or slab, by virtue of its mass and stiffness. I am a big fan of bluestone, the gray blue stone usually used for paving, for its low cost and high mass and stiffness. Thus, the effectiveness of these heavy thick stone slabs with springs.

I'm just happy to see Michael Green's (Room Tune "guru") proposal of component "tuning" by constraining outer structures with spikes falling out of fashion. Wrongheaded then, wrongheaded now, wrongheaded forever! We want decoupling (isolation), not coupling, right?

I have to admit all this springs stuff has come as a bit of a surprise. Mr. Kait and Mr. Green appear to have some interesting online correspondence. And more interestingly, an interest in Peter Belt who I remember from the 80s. Indeed, I sat in on a few black foil triangle demos. 

A spring suspended platform isn't cumbersome at all if made well. Check out my system page. I think my platform looks rather nice. Even on a shelf on a concrete wall, there are seismic and airborne vibrations.

Todd, looks good. Does the table not roll away?! Might be more of a challenge with my 60 pound turntable!

noromance,
I love your Eico monoblocks! I just gave my daughter my Eico ST-40 integrated. However, not original so heavily modified.

Anyway, I'm moving towards the decoupling approach for my gear as mentioned by geoffkait and others. I've had tremendous success using decoupling springs with my subs to solve mechanical feedback issues through my turntable.
Kenny

@noromance ha! Yeah, the wooden balls are a little misleading. I sanded divots in the platform to keep them in place and they have some Teflon tubing inserted into a hole in the top that goes into the bottom of my TT plinth to keep everything stationary and still allow a bit of wiggle. I mostly did that because I removed the power supply and motor from the plinth and mounted them on a wood and granite mount I made. That necessitates keeping the plinth and motor mount in the same place relative to one another. For your use, you could just make an isolation platform and plop your TT on top, done and done!

Very often, the table reacts not to the up/down movement of the floor, but to its horiontal - left/right movement.  You can eliminate this by placing a piece of appropriate size wood to affix the table to the wall behind it.  You'd be surprised at how helpful this can be.

@stringreen  Agreed. The table is actually butting hard against the wall with no free movement for that very reason. I have no footfall issues. I just feel that the oak table is picking up acoustic energy and transferring it back to the plinth. That is why I want to remove it.

On another related note, I know it's not the best to have the turntable between the speakers. If I moved it to the listening chair, wouldn't it still pick up sound? Or is it to help imaging by having nothing in between the speakers?

It's the second part mostly.. an open area between the speakers is supposed to increase depth and imaging. Though I'd imagine the sound waves would be stronger between the speakers than nearer the listening position as well. I, of course, break that rule with a console and a TV between my speakers. But that's how it goes sometimes. 

Thanks Todd. I guess a smaller wall shelf as I mentioned will be an improvement over the huge table.

Probably. Glad to be of help.

Definitely post back with your impressions once you’ve sorted it. I love hearing how it all works out.

When I bought my trusty (vintage) Linn Basik/Akito some years ago I had put it on top of what I assumed was a reasonably stable gear rack…oops…bounced around like crazy (maybe my rack isn't so stable). I looked up the manual online and noted that Linn recommends a light weight low stable platform and I had one of those…little table, level, light, sturdy. Problem solved, and although the Basik utilizes only 3 large hollow rubber cones under it for damping, they are a brilliant design and the table sounds fabulous even though one of my subs is a few feet away from it. No feedback loop, no nuthin'. 

wolf_garcia,

This doesn’t mean there is no further upgrade path. It just means what you’ve done sounds better than what you previously had.

@ noromance,

With a wall shelf comes other problems/issues. I, myself use a wall mount system.

With the change in seasons comes contraction/expansion, so I would recommend you having a thoughtful way of leveling this system. It’s easy for anyone who hasn’t/doesn’t live with a wall mount to advocate for it and "they’re done".

My initial recommendation took into consideration your (self-made) table as a major factor in any recommendations.

@toddverrone ’s recommendations are a mix of what I recommended to him, (that he now uses) and what he has read, (that he does not currently use (to my knowledge). I think he thanked me by saying something like... "you need to either quit drinking or get laid" Is this the guy you want to guide you for any future upgrades??. Be careful/mindful of who you choose to deal with?

( Just because you don’t readily experience any "foot-fall" issues does not necessarily exempt you from being isolated from the earth’s crust movement...IE: the floor.) For me/in my world, this type of issue is what I refer to as addressing the "basics".

I’m out.

Good luck!

Look at the Townshend  youtube  video of how his product helped him win best of show under a speaker on a concrete floor.!!

Then think about a TT......a super-sensitive product that will pick up ANY abnormality.???

@slaw your knowledge was very helpful in setting up my spring platform. I also utilized a lot of info from @geoffkait and others. There was much good info on the isolation thread a while back, and I appreciate you contributing to it.

My point in saying you need to drink less coffee or get laid, was that you’ve been popping into posts like this and laying out some knowledge, then getting upset that people aren’t instantly acknowledging your brilliance and jumping up and doing exactly what you say.
It’s not like you came over to my house and set things up. You shared info. Good info. But I still gathered other info, selected materials, made plans, built and adjusted my platform on my own. You’re acting like you did all this for me and I’m ungrateful. I acknowledge your help. And I appreciate it, as I’ve said before. But you need to stop acting like you are the grand master of isolation and we all need to hang on your every word and offer endless flowing praise at every opportunity.
If you keep that up, you’ll be know for being a-- rather than a knowledgeable member whose advice is sought.

@toddverrone,

Apparently, most view me as "an a--’ anyway, so I have nothing to lose? If you are really being honest, you view me this way, so don’t try and say, some may view me this way in the future. When I post, I come from a position of confidence by way of my own personal issues that I’ve had ongoing and found effective ways of dealing with. Your position started from a point of view you chose not to be honest about. Get real, dude!

I think my passion is greater than most that would lead some as yourself to feel this way.

The fact is/was, you were never grateful, until I brought this fact up.

Let’s get to the topic at hand. Your post to noromance reads like you are an authority on wall mount systems? Are you? Have you ever used one? If so, what meaningful recommendations are/can you pass on to noromance?

Let’s start here, alright?

Right, cement floors actually don't buy you that much since the entire structure of the house or whatever is moving right along with the surface of the Earth. And since the Earth's surface is moving like a wave on the ocean there are six count em! directions that vibration can travel. 

"With a wall mount system comes other problems...". Absolutely correct. I have used one with great success and also experienced horrible failure in two different houses. The latter was due to excessive vibration transmitted through the walls even though the wall mounted was secured firmly to the home’s support studs.

Following eliminate of vibration from external sources comes the frontier of draining and eliminating vibration and resonance produced by and within the turntable rig itself. This requires a completely different approach IME. "Soft isolation" approaches trap these vibrations and resonances within the component by eliminating the earth vibration ground. Need an approach that wicks away the vibration/resonance from the TT rig and then dissipates it.

Dave

@toddverrone,

Are you getting it now?

When I receive the slate plinth for the AudioGrail 401 in the coming month, I’ll try it on a wall (reinforced concrete basement pour), on the concrete floor (4"), on the oak table, and on a light metal Linn style stand. My intention is to spike and tight everything possibly on granite slab. East Coast-not many tremors!
I’ll also try maple, springs and sorbothane for the hell of it. I’ll report back. [Edit: Maybe also the sandbox as suggested by @islandmandan for whom I have respect.] Thanks all.

"East Coast- not many tremors!",

While I have an issue with that, as I live on the east coast and have experienced many, ..this is about more subtle vibrations that aren't readily noticed by us humans, but ARE by our beloved music transducers.

Good luck!

I was telling my wife about the conversation and she said if we are this concerned about subsonic tremors, then we are certifiable!

I think I’ve earned the right to ask, @toddverrone..where are your experiences regarding wall mount TT systems?

I asked this earlier.............. You tried to discredit me for my passion/knowledge in my posts.

Now, the shoe is on the other foot? When it was the other way, I responded.

Where are you?

Give me a break.

I am getting my gear together to head out on a beautiful fall day to do some rock climbing..

For the love of God, slaw, let it go. I am not pretending to be an authority. I did not add 'coffee' recently. You can't edit posts after 45 min.. I have never used a wall mount. I am simply passing on info I have gathered from others. If you look back at the isolation thread, ages ago, you'll see I thank you there as well. And I never said I think you're an ass. Though we are heading in that direction. I simply said that your confrontational manner and insistence that everything is all about you will lead to that perception, which will take away from actually being able to share knowledge in a meaningful way. Half of the message is how it's delivered..

I will add that concrete walls and floors will at least negate the need to worry about keeping the shelf level due to the expansion/contraction of wooden structures. 

Let’s stay focused here: no one said a wall shelf would be the end to all vibration issues. I certainly didn’t say that. My recommendation of a wall shelf had to do with having less stuff between the speakers, helping to improve sound, which is a well established concept that I do have familiarity with. So maybe more careful reading of the whole thread would lead to less strife.

Looking forward to your findings, noromance.

And yeah, we are a crazy lot. Happy Sunday all!

Taking you at your word "now"......

You "now" make a distinction... (this comes from my prying you to make some sort of meaning from your past posts)... of me being "confrontational", without your acknowledgement of any personal experience regarding your "recommendations" to others to how "their" systems should be. Yet, You now acknowledge you have no prior experience with wall mounts. But you recommended a wall mount. Right? Why? I would never recommend ANY product that I never used or had experience with.  You did. Why?

You now inject a  new (move), now to say you're getting ready to go out...

You now say "I'm being confrontational". Interesting? This was how I felt about your responses, a long time ago. Yet, I dealt with it.

You seem to have a "bag" of excuses to bring out when necessary?/

We are still waiting on your "previous posts regarding our recommendation of using a wall mount", and your experiences as such.

When you get back from your rock climbing, maybe you'll have thought of a good enough answer.

You now subscribe to my post regarding the expansion/contraction of walls...only after I posted it.

Be safe!

@toddveronne,

You, my friend, are what I see as the "worst" of what should be looked highly upon here!

I think about "newbies" looking at us. I think about people trying their best to get into this hobby, hoping for "sound' wisdom" from years-long posters.

Yet, you, undermine the very foundation of these principles!!

Shame on you!!!!

@toddverrone,

While you're out "climbing/hiking" and such, I'm here listening.

That says a lot, doesn't it?

Wall shelves (interior brick wall first floor) never worked for my Linn LP12 and Rega decks. The sound always felt grounded.
I live on a main road and I suspect that the wall itself was transmitting a fair degree of vibration itself.

On the other hand a small light rigid wooden table made my cheap $50 flimsy plastic turntable (glued stylus) sound ridiculously close to the above mentioned decks! The sound was big with a good sense of ease about it. With young kids in the house I just gave up on vinyl entirely largely because of these issues.

I think the main point to bear in mind is that we want to decouple, not isolate via spikes etc. In fact some of the extreme high end decks feature advanced tech which totally decouples them via magnets or air suspension.

Hmm, does anyone have friends in NASA who could help up us solve these issues once and for all? Google? Apple? I heard that Steve Jobs was a vinyl man...

Hmmmmm?

Decouple?

Sounds familiar?

Actually, I have two family members that have worked for/do work for NASA. This is not an issue. The issue seems to be those that purport to be experienced, having some influence on others!

As someone mentioned earlier there's some great information on the Townshend Audio site. Well worth a watch and thanks to all concerned

https://youtu.be/OZxi1oZfvDA

Do not discount the effect, seemingly unnoticeable changes to your (wall-mount) TT mount/support and how they can dramatically affect your listening experience!

@cd318,

Thanks for posting the link to the video I mentioned above. You make it So easy.

I only hope, everyone watches this!