Super tweeters, are they worthwile?


Hello guys
I've been reading some infomation on the web about super tweeters and I've got curious.
First I didnt believe in subwoofers, I thought the would only add bass quantity to my system and then I got convinced and I tried one. Well, I couldnt believe how much it improved the 3D image, making it rock solid and so real. And I thought soundstage was mostly the tweeters job. 
Now I read some guys swear that super tweeters can also improve the soundstage, 3D image and bass!!  Well, If a sub can improve the mid and high frequencies, I think I can believe super tweeters could improve bass. 
First, I would like to now your experience with super tweeters, please only the ones who actually tried them. 
Second, if I listen all of my music streaming Tidal hifi (44.1 kHz), does this sample rate have ultrasonic infomation for the super tweeters to play? If not, does software or hardware (DAC) upsampling delivery it? 
Finally, wich super tweeters would you recomend under 1k the pair? I mean, ready to plug and play. I dont have the expertise, nor the time and patience to build crossovers, etc.
Just to mention, I live in a country where I dont have the chance to borrow them from a dealer with a trial period. I have to buy everything blindly. 
Thanks!! 

plga
The way these are typically deployed can be analogized like running your speakers full range then throwing in a subwoofer. Basically you are running double bass.

A lot of 1" dome tweeters get directional above 5KHz, i.e, they start beaming when you are more than 30 degrees off-axis. Remember basically there’s no real musical output above 10KHz in most instances. It seems the super tweeters function in most cases to simply expand the dispersion of your speakers in the 7-10KHz high frequency range.

It can be useful if your tweeter beams at high frequencies--this will be even more obvious if you have a 1.1" or 1.25" tweeter. However some 1" dome tweeters have good horizontal dispersion out to 60+ degrees and won’t need this. It really depends on the drivers you have.



There just isn't much above 10kz to be worth bothering with.
I recommend a visit to an Audiologist to test your hearing and find out where it drops off!
Super tweeters can enhance the music including the sound stage as you noted in your opening questions. I own the Townsend Super Tweeters and I have found the results very positive however they seem to work better with some speakers verses other speakers, but they work, most likely depending upon the tweeters used in various speakers. 
Sorry, that's the only question that you asked that I can answer.
If you choose to purchase a pair of the Townsend Super Tweeters for best pricing (before you purchase new or used) contact Nicholas Besley of The Emporium in the United Kingdom.
IMO;Those that say Super Tweeters (a really good pair) don't work most likely are stating an opinion vs actually owning a pair and listening to them.



First, I would like to now your experience with super tweeters, please only the ones who actually tried them.
I used Decca ribbons, and then Sequerra ribbons as part of a mini-HQD system many years ago with a subwoofer. They increased the frequency spectrum, but like most add-ons to the original Quad ESL (aka '57), there was a coherence issue-I did manage to get them to blend and I guess they accomplished part of their task in making the high frequency sweet spot (within the range of the super tweet) less constricted- a notorious fault of the old Quad. 
Still have the Deccas, they need to be repaired. I kept them mainly for artifact value. Are the Townsends still in production? I think there was another brand in the last few years that is no longer in production? 
Old school isn't it?
This came up in a discussion of the big Bozak, for which it was common to use some piezo tweeter as an add on....

You guys are probably too young 😛 to remember the Ultra Tweeters from Golden Sound. The output of the Ultra Tweeters was 3 GHz, nothing below that. 
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I used to own the EnigmAcoustics Sopranino super-tweeter and liked what it did to my Magico Q3s. It’s not a good fit with my current M3s which are much more linear up to 40kHz and integrate better with the room. The issue with the Sopranino was integrating it, some experienced listeners always felt they could hear the transition, didn’t bother me but I heard an edge on some recordings.

I still wonder about trying one again and was taken with this review, the basic model in this series fits your budget and could be worth exploring
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/avantages2/
My Talon Khorus use super tweeters. Or is it super-duper? I forget. But I know they work, because when I play my test CD and it gets to 40,000 Hz I can put my ear right up to the superstar tweeter and can't hear anything. Since I can't hear anything that high I shouldn't be able to hear anything from the supernova tweeter, which I can't, and so I know its working.

Or it could be this is all mass confusion over the valid point that some sounds change so fast its the equivalent of ultra-sonic, which while quite different than an actual ultra-sonic frequency is a distinction a little too sophisticated for the average audiophile. Yeah. That's the one. Nailed it.
Ok guys, thanks for replying
What about sample rates??? 
If I play 44.1 kHz songs, they shouldnt have any ultra sonic frequencies, isn't it? 
Any thoughts about this subject??? 
Roberjeman you are the kid who called out all the royalties’ new and old clothes here. All psycho-acoustics. Unless we are looking at Lowther or Diatone that measurably roll off at 8k supertweeters just give confidence to the listener. Most people don’t realize "air" is at around 3-8k and not the upper extreme. In case of realistic in-room compensation of full range drivers, people often buy a superduper tweeter of some 98+dB efficiency and cross it -6dB per octave at 15k, not knowing that at one octave below: 7.5k, the tweeter still blasts out 92dB of "air" and that’s what they are hearing.
The original "super" tweeter was the Janzen D-130. Four electrostatic elements in a horizontally-angled array with built-in crossover. I have a restored pair! Designed by Arthur Janzen to be used atop the AR's and KLH's of the 50's and 60's and improve the speed and dispersion of the top end! 
Thank you johnsonwu for your astute and correct analysis of the problem! 
I remember the Janzens- but I don't remember how well they cohered with those acoustic suspension speaker designs. I think part of the reason for the use of the Deccas with the old Quads wasn't just frequency related, it was dispersion- the Quad was notoriously beamy in the high frequencies. Head in a vise sweet spot. Glorious when sitting 'just so' but drops significantly if you aren't positioned perfectly relative to the speaker(s). 
I had my Quads refurbished and now use them without any ancillaries. Not an all-rounder, but a great second system. 
Don't know if super tweeters would add to the performance of the other speaker components but the bottom line appears to be what we actually hear.......

Experiments have shown that a healthy young person hears all sound frequencies from approximately 20 to 20,000 hertz.
Some dogs may hear up to 50,000 hertz. So, if the neighborhood dogs start barking while you're playing music then you may be shooting for the wrong goal.


Instead of invest in superteeter invest in a good dac will improve your dynamic , soundstage and seprarste , do a research about a dac and get the one work for your system 
I have used Heil AMTs as super tweeters with good results on several sets of speakers over the years.  With some speakers they don’t seem to make an improvement.   But I built my own crossover and you are looking for something turnkey. I hope you can find ones that you can try without having to keep if they don’t sound they way that you want. Good luck. 
I use the Sopranino’s with TAD’s. The integration is seamless. Imaging and soundstaging are unchanged, but this could vary with placement of the tweets in relation to the mains. The main benefit is the more ‘alive-sounding’ quality that they impart. It’s subtle, which is how they are voiced.  The effect is consistent for all types of music. I can’t imagine how they wouldn’t benefit any dynamic driver setup.
Please take a look at the white paper and all the material that's available to you for Townsend Super Tweeters. I bought These and used them with my old B&W speakers with excellent results. Those speakers reached up to 20K hertz.
When you get it right the results are similar to that of using a subwoofer i.e. when you integrate a subwoofer correctly your high end is also improved. Similarly when you integrate a super tweeter correctly the low end is also improved.
Keeping the discussion around the frequencies that we actually hear, we all know that most of us can not hear past 16-17K hertz. However; a lot of instruments produce frequencies way higher that 20K hertz. the effect that these devices have is by reproducing those higher frequencies they introduce a tidying up and organizing effect to the entire frequency range  which obviously includes the frequency band that we can hear.
So the effects of super tweeters are more profound when you play analogue sources as they do allow much higher frequencies than 20K hertz.
Going back to my own experiences when I upgraded my speakers to ones that would go upto 40K hertz, I packed the Townsend Super Tweeters away, thinking that they were redundant now.
After a few years the curiosity got the better of me and wanted to try them out with the new speakers. The Townsends go up to 90K hertz !!
And low and behold the positive effects were also noticeable then (may be not as profoundly as the old speakers).
Now the beauty of Townsends is that you can completely switch them off by a dial at the back (as well as having multiple gain setting positions).
So with the help of one other person you don't even need to leave your listening seat to make before and after comparison or between settings.

Also please research the number of high end speakers that actually include a super tweeter. There has to be a reason for that !!  
Op, you're correct in wondering if a cd quality recording has any information at that high a frequency.  It doesn't. Perhaps a wider dispersion tweeter would be more beneficial for you? I like the idea of upgrading your dac as well.
So tidying up is the reason, thank you. I have also heard about the value of "moving air" even if its  above the audible level. The dogs may love it but somehow I think my money has to go into what I still can here. 
Show me a speaker to A/B with to prove your point and I will concede.
Signed, Missouri.
plga OP

I use a pair of these passively (18db) crossed over from 10khz up on my Martin Logan Monolith III's, even though the ML's have the latest panels and have incredible highs, the Plasma tweeters are so much better, the highs dance in front of you like fireflies, you swear you can reach out and grab them.
  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Magnat-Plasma-MP-02-ion-tweeter-massless-air-plasma-speaker-Plasmahochtoner/272894087984?hash=item3f89c15330:g:V5sAAOSwCJxZ6PXy&frcectupt=true

Cheers George  
So tidying up is the reason, thank you. I have also heard about the value of "moving air" even if its above the audible level. The dogs may love it but somehow I think my money has to go into what I still can here.
Show me a speaker to A/B with to prove your point and I will concede.
Signed, Missouri.
....Since the dogs are not paying for any of this stuff who cares what they hear :-)

As theTownsend Super Tweeters has an ’Off’ switch at the back you can do the A/B comparison on your own speaker easily.
Back in the day, when KEF Concertos were a big deal, I built a pair of KEF Transmission Lines around 1978 which had a super tweeter as the only hardware difference between the two.

Having said that, there was a lot of difference in the cabinets both internally and externally and the TLs were designed with the super tweeter in mind.

The Transmission Lines used Rogers speakers that I imported from the UK.

They did sound a lot different to my friends Concertos. Bassier and certainly a bit more up top.

I suspect some of the difference came down to the cabinets.
Are you planning on pulling out your tweeters and replacing them with the supers? I think they are meant to augment existing tweeters and you will probably end up losing more of the "lower" high frequencies if that makes sense. I’m sure you added the subs without removing the existing bass speakers, right?

In my experience, I find that I can't agree with the remarks about the frequencies above 10Kh not making any audible difference.

Just as the subs added something extra, the super tweeters probably will to. It’s all in there in the recordings and each addition that enables you to hear more of it helps to make it sound more balanced and complete from top to bottom.
Enjoy the journey.






Another well known brand super tweeter is the Murata. 

I too have owned the Townsend Super tweeters and I liked them very much and I would probably still use them if my present speakers didn't have such a slanted top. They added a dimension that is hard to describe, but to me, they added a airier presentation that even included better defined bass notes.

ozzy


 
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lak3,559 posts
"Super tweeters can enhance the music including the sound stage as you noted in your opening questions. I own the Townsend Super Tweeters and I have found the results very positive however they seem to work better with some speakers verses other speakers, but they work, most likely depending upon the tweeters used in various speakers."

Ditto - I have them also... and... they do just that - they seem to add more presence, air and resolution.