Super tweeter for FullRange Driver


I have a pair of Audio Nirvana 15in Alinco Classics that I just got done getting into cabinets. After some listening impressions, I've realized I cant live with the high frequency response these things put out by themselves. They only go to about 15k hz. and it's made music lose its sparkle and sense of space and spacial cues. I was thinking of buying a pair of Fostek T90As and pointing them at the ceiling for a more even dispersion and better integration with the Audio Nirvana driver. My main question is what  capacitor volume would you suggest? Where in the frequency response would you crossover to the tweeter? Would wiring the 8ohm tweeter and the 8ohm Audio Nirvana in parallel make me need to change my amp(Audio Note Kit 1 300b Set) from 8ohm to 4ohms? Any other brands of tweeters recommended for a fullrange driver that is around 96bd efficent? Sorry for all the questions, incredibly new to trying to implement crossovers with full rangers. If this sounds like a bad idea. Please speak up. 
akwilson501

Showing 11 responses by alexberger

I use Fostex T90 forward-firing with Altec 604E.
This combination works great.
I use first order crossover and Werner Jagusch auto-transformer to decrease output of super-tweeters. I use 1uF AN Copper capacitors. I’m not sure they are the best for this application but they work good.

Back of ceiling firing tweeters sound horrible!!! It completely destroys focus and sound-stage.
I don’t understand why some people use back of ceiling pointing of tweeters.
Probably people are too lazy to make a phase alignment of tweeters. When alignment is done properly, super-tweeters sound together with the main speakers.
My speakers Altec 604E. These speakers have high frequency extension just up to 12KHz.
I did experiments with back of ceiling firing tweeters. I used Morel MDT30 tweeters with 1st order filter. The effect of  back of ceiling firing was like a saliva of singers where scattered around the room.
Then I used  Morel MDT30  in forward  firing way. I adjusted the phase by moving tweeters back and forward. Even 1mm makes a difference because at 10KHz the wave length is 340mm.
After that, I used Dick Sequerra Pyramid T9 ribbon super twitters.
A couple years ago, I started use a better parts in crossover and Duelund hook up wires. As result, I can use speakers without supertweeters at all with still good tonal balance.
Now I started using T90a. T90a suted much better to Altecs 604E. They give a huge positive effect. I use auto-transformer (-7.5dB tap). This solution is most SET amp friendly. The extra load of addition supertweeters loaded thought the auto-transformer is very mild.
Regards,
Alex.

In my case adding T90a tweeters didn't change tonal balance too much
but made sound much more refined.
Not just added air, soundstage and high frequency extension (as was expected), 
but also made better separation, more realistic tone of instruments, better bass definition and texture, better soundstage layering.
Thank a lot to @zipost who convinced me to try Fostex super-tweeters.

  • Werner Jagusch autotransformers:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Autotransformer-fur-Hornspeaker-Altec-JBL-Klipsch-Crossover/223950366633?hash=item34247b67a9:g:gTsAAOSwqOdd3PKr

Makes super tweeter load very mild for amplifier.
For example if  you use Fostex T90a and you need align it with speaker sensitivity 97dB.
You connect T90a to -9dB tap. The super tweeter load that see an amplifier is 64 Ohm.
You must put HP filter before autotransformer. You can use potentiometer in parallel to  autotransformer input for adjust cut off frequency.
In my specific case it is 15 degree. I measured it.
You want supertweeter will add more high frequencies over 10KHz. If the angle is more than 30 degree it seems to be not good.

Hi @akwilson501 ,

What kind of capacitor do you use?
The capacitor quality and jumper wire quality is very import too.
I prefer paper in oil capacitors for smother sound.

Regards,
Alex.
I don't think this tweeters have enough sensitivity (93dB) for Omega Super 3 high output monitors (97.5dB).
I use Fostex T90A and it is incredibly good. Very detailed, natural and smooth. 

I bought Fostex t90a supertweeters for my Altec 604E 1.5 years ago.

Since most people use these tweeters with a 1st order filter, so I used with a 1st order filter. Moreover, it was technically simple. I had quality Audio Note Cu 1uf copacitors and autotransformers that make it easy to adjust the volume of super tweeters.

The effect of the supertweeters was very positive. More detailed, refined sound, more air and 3D soundstage.

But over time, I began to come to the conclusion, that the high frequencies are still a little lacking, and if I increase the volume of the super tweeters, the upper mids become too bright.

Then I remembered what my friend Sergey ( an experience DIY speaker builder) said that for supertweeters it is advisable to use filters of the 3rd or 4th order. (For example, the Harbath Hl5 has a supertweeter connected by the 3rd order.)

I thought that such a filter would allow me to raise the high friquencies without climbing to the upper mids.

I contacted Sergey for advices and began to build a filter. I used 2 pairs of capacitors that I had: 1uf Audio Note Cu and MultiCap RTX.

The coils were calculated by the online calculator Bessel filter of the 4th order. I bought cheap coils at madisoundspeakerstore.com. First, I set the filter to 12K Hertz, but then I got a small dip in the frequency response in the region of 10-12K. So I decided to rebuilt the filter to 10K hertz.

The 4th order filter greatly weakens the output of super-tweeters, so I had to abandon the autotransformer and connect directly through the Dell 0.5 Ohm resistor, as Sergey advised.

It is too early to draw final conclusions. The parts have not passed break in and I do not listen to it for so long enough. In addition, Sergey advised to shunt the 1uf capacitors with small polyester capacitors.

But the impressions are as follows:

The upper middle is less bright, but cleaner, smoother, more detailed. Vocals, saxophone sound clear, without distortion typical for a 1st order filter (when the tweeter and supertweeter are played in parallel in this frequency range). The chorus sounds smoother and cleaner without mud or squeals.

The focus of the instruments is sharper, the soundstage is more transparent.

There are many more upper high frequencies. A lot more details of cymbals, brushes and so on. Flutes, violins have more overtones. More air and better presence effect.


Hi @mozartfan ,

I you use 1st order, you will hear your supertweeter in parallel with your speaker 3 octave down crossover frequency.
It can cause modulation distortions in upper midrange where our hearing is very sensitive.
3rd and 4th order work much better for supertweeter. 
I did 1st order and 4th order with the same speakers and supertweeters. When I moved to 4th order I got much more smooth, detailed, and clean sound in the upper midrange. Much less brightness, harshness, graine. It also afforded me to increase level of upper high frequencies (over 12KHz).

https://www.calsci.com/audio/X-Overs4.html
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/filter-crossover-types-for-loudspeakers

Regards,
Alex.
I don’t understand why most people do 1st order crossover for super tweeters.
The only answer that comes to my mind - the 3rd, 4th order is too difficult to implement for average audiophile.

My experience shows a huge advantage of 4th order crossover over 1st order.
It is like to upgrade the speakers to at least to 2 times more expensive pair!

The difference is:
Mid range is much more smooth, less harsh and much more detailed.
Much better soundstage - bigger, deeper, more clear location of instruments.
Better separation and low level details.
A lot of high frequency details that wasn’t exist with 1st order crossover.

The important note. Whatever order of crossover is used - forward firing super tweeters have to be aligned with other speakers.

Regards,
Alex.
Here are examples for comparison:

Fostex T90a with 1st order crossover:
https://youtu.be/vTOK7lMPAW4
Fostex T90a with 4th order crossover:
https://youtu.be/o001l1f_FDw

Fostex T90a with 1st order crossover:
https://youtu.be/ZfvWxALxvw8
Fostex T90a with 4th order crossover:
https://youtu.be/R-xkKuGEp78