Technique and time go on. Subwoofers are a lot faster these days. But also the roomacoustic systems have changed a lot. About 7 years ago I never thought that subwoofers would be fast enough to become one with the loudspeakers for stereo use. In the past my only interest were in big systems like the B&W 800Signature. ( which I owned)
These days it is another world. Audyssey Pro has changed my thoughts about subwoofers in general. Now I have a what I call; stealth integration with the loudspeakers. I never thought this could be achieved with a subwoofer.
I also use a pure silver Audioquest Wild Dog subcable. This one has taken it even to a new and higher level.
These day I cannot imagine not to use a subwoofer. Even for stereo use. I listen these days above 90% in stereo. |
In the past we did filter them till max 35-60. These days this part has changed a lot. After I got the attention to test it till 120 hz. I test it for the first time. When you use a subwoofer like mine ( low freq. unit is very fast and light ( ceramics) )you can use it a lot further.
I got even better results using it higher. Low freq. become touchable above 80hz. These days I use it till 140 hz. This gives the best endresults I even heard with subwoofers in general. Playing stereo voices and instruments also become more stable and physical.
This is possible cause of the accuracy of the measurement Audyssey Pro gave. And the use of a very thick Wild Dog pure silver subcable.
At the show were I was in 2013, people said: but your subwoofer is out. Many people were not familiar with this kind of integration.
Going back to the past were we sold most of the time REL subwoofers even with more expensive loudsprekers. It is a new world and a much higher level of integration. |
"What JM said. Subs rarely sound right and you are much better off with a well designed full range speaker"
These words I said for a long time as well. I never thought that I could be statified and even owning a subwoofer for stereo use.
So what did change my opinion?
When I did test subwoofers in all those years ( 16 years of time) I was often not satisfied with the integration. There were Always music numbers were you could hear that the timing was not perfect. Everywhere I came ( shows and clients) I heard the same limitations. For a perfectionist there is no room for this. Why? Because I get irritated by every single limitation. It is Always my way of working to eliminate every single limitation in a set.
When I bought the Monitor Audio PLW-15 I understand directly that the response is a lot faster than most other subwoofer. The PLW-15 is a very difficult subwoofer to control.
Audyssey did solve the control problems I had with the PLW-15. You can have a very fast subwoofer, but this is no garantee for success.
Audyssey Pro gave me the freedom to control and make it fully integrated with the speakers. This is what I call stealth integration.
Purist Powercable and the new Audioquest Wild Dog pure silver subcable puts it even to a higher level.
But the remarks to use it to a higher freq. level did change it also a lot. These days I use it from 16hz till 140 hz. Blending goes to a new level. You need to hear it before you can believe it.
I had a few surround specialists and also different clients with highend sets who are amazed by the level of integration.
When I put it off you loose it all. When you use it till 140 hz the subwoofers has a much more important part in the overall sound.
I understand the thoughts of most people overhere about integration. But now stealth inegration is possible.
It is not easy to create, it did cost me many tests, time and thinking to create it. But now it is here. A few people in the audio business say; you have to do something with it. You have to let it hear to other people. I am thinking about a way to make it known. |
Audyssey Pro Is far superior in endresult compared to XT32.
The authority is a lot better. You get a different kind of sound in comparison to XT32.
It goes deeper and you have a much better timing and integration. |
Every single tool has his limitations. Horn loudspeakers are not able to give a physical inimate image. Even when people would gave me 100 dollar each day I would not listen to this in my house.
You can go on and on about everything! |
The limitation of Velodyne subwoofers is their response. They need to use lighter and faster material. Even that it can play loud and has a lot of dynamics. It is still not fast enough. With a few simple stereo test this comes to the surface quite easy. |
At shows The horn loudspeakers Always gave a less intimate stage than how I create an intimate stage. Even when I was sitting in the middle. My image is a lot more stable and blacks are superior to any horn loudspeaker I ever heard on a show. The level of physical 3D stage ( blacks are here a part from) is not that precise.
With the hornspeakers it is more difficult to have a good image when you sit at different places. |
The first time I heard the Velodyne DD18 I was amazed by the roomcorrection system of the sub. He had 2 of them. There was no acoustic problem in the low freq. But the thing I found out was that the timing with the loudspeakers (Revel) was not ideal. This is caused by the lack of speed in response.
Depth is a very important part for the absolute sound. I understand that people like horn speaker for there speed and ability to play loud.
I also can play at extreme levels. With Pro roomacoustic measurement I can play as loud as I want to. My speakers have a spl of 118 db. For a not horn speaker this is quite extreme for a small speaker. But I have an extreme deep and wide stage with a physical intimate stage to die for. |
Because most of all subwoofers do not have a response what is fast enough. This is why many people are only interested in bigger floorstanders. I had the same thoughts till 2007. |
I use the crossover of the Monitor Audio PLW-15 itself. Without Audyssey Pro this subwoofer is very difficult to control
I even can choose between 6, 12, 18 and 24 db/octave
24 give the best sound. |
Yes I did try different places from the wall. I am a person who likes to test. Testing means; trying many different things.
The nice thing about testing is collecting information. This you use for the best endresult.
When I put it closer to the wall the dynamics are stronger. I will loose too much drive when I put it more away from the wall. The pro measurement gives you the freedom to put it were you want to.
My low freq. unit is made from ceramics. This one is a lot lighter compared to the material of the DD18.
That's why you have a much faster response. This is easily to hear in the level of integration.
Velodyne should use lighter material for a much faster response. Because they have every part for a good subwoofer. The only limitation is their timing.
The new level I have with my subwoofer is that you feel more energy. And I am not only talking about low freq. Also in freq above 80 hz you feel more energy.
The Audioquest Wild Dog and the Stillpoinst togheter give you a much higher level in speed. You need to hear it before you understand what it makes special and new. |
Dynamics is something totally different than response. This is what is the weakest part of Velodyne.
I like the drive and eq system of the DD18 when I heard it the first time. But still I didn't like the integration.
I have showed this to some Velodyne owners at my home. Then it is easy to understand what a faster resonse does.
This makes a subwoofer go to a different level.
Then you get stealth low freq. I am Always looking for the best. This search never stops. People often ask to me if life is not more difficult to be so demanding. In my view it is not. It is who I am. Doesn't cost a lot of energy, it works just natural.
In audio it needs to be the best, the rest I don't F...care!
That is why people can feel offended. I want the best for my clients as well. I want for them they same level as I want for myself. There is not difference, that is why I think and work for my clients as I do for my self. |
I have heard the DD18 several times. Not the DD18+
I never heard the DD18 reach the stealth speed I have at home. This is my Reference level of timing. So I compare everything with this quality. When it is less, it is fully useless in my world.
A know a few person which I sold cables who own JL subwoofers. You don't see them here a lot in the Netherlands.
I never liked any Krell speaker. It is better just focus on one thing....for them it is amps.
Magico subwoofer is of an extreme price. When there is a demo here in Holland, I will go for a listen. |
Above 80hz low freq. become touchable. That is why when you use your subwoofer a lot further ( 120-140hz) you become what I call stealth low freq.
That is the main reason why you need an extreme fast subwoofer in response to use easilly to higher freq.
Using till max 80Hz, is like using subwoofer during the 80's!! That was the past, it is about now. |
I also use the Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audyssey Pro.
Above 99% of all people use Audyssey as Audyssey say you should use it. There is a big but......Audyssey does not think from the head of how highend is being used. And how big instruments and voices need to be in proportion.
The other limitation is the lost in dynamics. The first 2 times I did it as they tell people to use it. This was in 2010. I was not satisfied enough.
I had thoughts how it could be better. I developed my own way of measuring. These days we measure at totally different places and Heights.
We also measure the subwoofer differently than they do.
They endresuls are way superior to their quality in endresult. I never will share this information with another person. Even not for money. With this I have an extreme advantage over all my competitors. I never had such a big and convincing advantage in audio before.
The differences are: superior dynamics, speed, blacks integration, sharper focus, resolution and atriculation of voices.
The subwoofer is also a lot more dynamic and controlled than you can achieve with the Audyssey way of Pro.
We modified the microphone stand. The Audyssey stand is fully useless. We measure at mm precision.
The new outcomming Onkyo PR-SC5533 in September will not have Audyssey anymore. I will test it for Onkyo when it comes out. For me it will be far inferior in endresult. I still can sell the old one, The new one is good enough for me to sell. The level is not good enough to be used for myself. |
New techniques and faster subwoofers has given us a much higher level of integration than what was possible in the past.
I never thought that this would be possible. Now I know it is possible! |
When you use lighter material, you get a better response. The poweramp also has influence on the control and speed.
Ceramic woofers are very light and are a lot faster than some 'slow' material used by other brands.
In a simple stereo test you can compare the differences in integration. It is so simple! |
A source has a very big influence on a subwoofer. For example we did a test between the Olive 06HD and the Wadia 7Si. The Olive had more controle and more layers in the lowest freq. When a source is better in timing and has better dynamics a subwoofer will sound a lot different.
I have tested many powercables on subwoofers. This is the same story. With a better awg you will hear the difference. But when you use a sub from 16hz till 140hz, you even need other qualities in a powercable.
I got the best result sofar with Purist Audio powercables. Also from 80-140hz they work better than most others do.
The interconnect you use for your cable also makes a big difference. I tested many in 16 years of time. The one I own now: Audioquest Wild Dog pure silver subwoofer cable even gives you a new level in drive and integration.
All other cables I have tested don't even come close. Silver also works extreme well in speed, drive and control. |
Hey Marty; go for Audyssey Pro with your 5509. You will go to a much higher endresult. |
Audyssey is not an easy system. Even when I gave the instructions to clients and friends, it was difficult.
I work at mm precision. There is no room for error. When you do not work extreme precise it will work against you.
This is a big advantage for me, but for most it is a disadvantage.
The professional microphone can measure about 1000-10.000 times as much information compared to XT32.
But you also can make more measurments. You also have a lot more options to change.
You can make your own target curves. I did read many articles about human hearing. This gave me the freedom to create a superior articulation of voices.
I can let all people hear details which the best highend pre amps of far above 15000 dollar cannot reveal.
That is why a person who is distributer of many highend brands said: you can put the highend market up side down.
I use the knowledge and thinking in highend in every price level I sell. This gives me the option to create a 3 dimensional stage for a lot less than what was possible in the past. |
Dear Lloydelee,
which subwoofercable do you use? |
